Shamrock v Sundireland off

Racing Flat

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Yes.

In the same way your medical opinion based on watching your Gray's Anatomy DVD is less relevant than a practicing GP, regardless of how exciting his patients are. You don't know more about the law from watching Boston Legal than a solicitor.

He's not arguing that by watching Grey's Anatomy on DVD that he knows as much as a practising GP, but that by watching Grey's Anatomy on DVD, his opinion on medicine is as valid as that of someone who goes to the studio to watch Grey's anatomy being filmed live.

DSB

Racing Flat wrote: »

He's not arguing that by watching Grey's Anatomy on DVD that he knows as much as a practising GP, but that by watching Grey's Anatomy on DVD, his opinion on medicine is as valid as that of someone who goes to the studio to watch Grey's anatomy being filmed live.

Grey's Anatomy is meant to be a TV programme however, football is not. Besides, you would pick up lots of extra insight from being at the studio live so that is a poor analogy.

bohsman

Someone that goes to the studio to watch the show live is definitely a bigger fan of the show.

Jivin Turkey

I've met plenty of people whose sole enjoyment of attending football matches is the tribal and social aspect of getting together with mates for the common cause.

Plenty of these haven't a notion of the fundamentals of tactics or strategy, yet alone what makes a good player and why.

Standing on a terrace every week does not give you a better understanding of football. Perhaps the culture and tradition of football, but that is far removed from the actual game itself.

PS I'm just back from watching a training game there tonight. Seeing as I doubt many people on this board saw a game in person this evening, is my opinion the most valid here?!

LeixlipRed

Draupnir wrote: »

You're not a real football fan because the team you follow don't play football, or at least anything I would acknowledge as football, therefore I would happily say that you don't know anything about football since you have never seen it played.

You haven't played a game of football in your life so by that logic.

Benedict XVI

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Yes.

In the same way your medical opinion based on watching your Gray's Anatomy DVD is less relevant than a practicing GP, regardless of how exciting his patients are. You don't know more about the law from watching Boston Legal than a solicitor.

Football is an entertainment for it's fans, medicine is a matter of life or death, big difference.

Draupnir

LeixlipRed wrote: »

You haven't played a game of football in your life so by that logic.

Always with the deep thinking Martin, that logical brain of yours!

spav

Here's a wacky notion.

Is it possible that there could be different types of football fan? Those who like to support local teams and go to games, and those who like to follow the bigger leagues and immerse themselves in the televised stuff, stats, trivia and news?

It's all as relevant if you ask me. I've a lot of respect for those who give up their time and money to support the less glamourous domestic league - a league, after all, that really needs its match going fans. It seems a bit churlish for outsiders to critisise the quality of the players imo - it's a bit like saying Dublin is rubbish because New York has massive skyscrapers. And, for what it's worth, I think the quality of the Eircom league is quite high - maybe equivalent to the English Championship, which is very impressive given the relative populations of the countries and money in the leagues.

Having said that, the Eircom isn't for everyone. People who support the likes of Liverpool or Man U in Ireland tend to be very knowledgeable and very passionate about their team. OK, so they might pick the team for fairly arbitrary reasons initially, but in most cases they stick with that decision from cradle to grave.

I find the bickering between the two factions to be fairly pointless. Though it is pretty entertaining

OhNoYouDidn't

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Football is an entertainment for it's fans, medicine is a matter of life or death, big difference.

Spoken like a true Ole-Ole.

A real fan wouldn't think like that.

Töpher

Consumers. Per Draupnir. Get the terms right.

patmac

mike65 wrote: »

Is this game still off? :pac:

Mike.

Believe it's been refixed for February to coincide with the opening of Rover's new stadium, can't remember the name of it but it was something to do with the GAA.;)
I heard from a very reliable source that Sunderland took 80% of the gate for the Athlone match as well as been accomated in the Sheraton Hotel, all expenses paid by the Town, it's no wonder the tickets were €35.

Racing Flat

DSB wrote: »

Grey's Anatomy is meant to be a TV programme however, football is not. Besides, you would pick up lots of extra insight from being at the studio live so that is a poor analogy.

I agree, you'd learn a lot of extra things like the cast's nicknames for each other, little tricks they use to remember their lines etc. So you might know a little more about than someone who only watches on television, but not necessarily. The thought that someone who watches on television cannot be as knowledgeable or passionate/emotionally involved is wrong.

The analogy was good, the original one inferred that English Prem team supporters were like television viewers of Greys anatomy, but those who attend live soccer matches are like practising GP's! All I was saying was that if the Prem league fans are televison viewers the live soccer fans are like viewers in the studio...(just a tiny step up)

Racing Flat

bohsman wrote: »

Someone that goes to the studio to watch the show live is definitely a bigger fan of the show.

Most of them, but maybe not all - I go to Villa Park a fair bit, and we're usually near enough to the away fans. Every game I've seen, regardless of the team, has a small section of fans who don't watch any of the game, they just sing songs and make gestures at the home fans, with their backs to the game for the whole match! So they have to be classed big fans if they go to all the away games, but maybe it's the social side, going out with their friends that they are fans of, moreso than the team?

DSB

Racing Flat wrote: »

I agree, you'd learn a lot of extra things like the cast's nicknames for each other, little tricks they use to remember their lines etc. So you might know a little more about than someone who only watches on television, but not necessarily. The thought that someone who watches on television cannot be as knowledgeable or passionate/emotionally involved is wrong.

The analogy was good, the original one inferred that English Prem team supporters were like television viewers of Greys anatomy, but those who attend live soccer matches are like practising GP's! All I was saying was that if the Prem league fans are televison viewers the live soccer fans are like viewers in the studio...(just a tiny step up)

A massive step up.

Jivin Turkey

The more I think about this the more it amuses me.

For all those saying that if you don't go to matches you don't really understand football I'd say, and I say this from experience, aside from seeing players work off the ball, what you see at a live game is far tougher to digest than what you see on the TV.

You can be in the stand behind one goal and see a goal go in at the other end, and think it is all down to a sweet pass from your striker when in reality it could have been a crap pass deflected into his team-mates path, you are just at too bad an angle to realise. Seeing as it's say Longford vs Cobh you'll probably never see this game in full on the TV and will always think of this as a piece of skill from your number nine.

If you watch it on TV you see everything analysed in detail so form your opinions on facts as opposed to observations, and I know what I'd rather rely on.

dfx-

Jivin Turkey wrote: »

You can be in the stand behind one goal and see a goal go in at the other end, and think it is all down to a sweet pass from your striker when in reality it could have been a crap pass deflected into his team-mates path, you are just at too bad an angle to realise. Seeing as it's say Longford vs Cobh you'll probably never see this game in full on the TV and will always think of this as a piece of skill from your number nine.

If you watch it on TV you see everything analysed in detail so form your opinions on facts as opposed to observations, and I know what I'd rather rely on.

I'd rather be jumping around celebrating with the players 200 miles from home and encouraging them to hold on than analysing it on tv.

Jivin Turkey

dfx- wrote: »

I'd rather be jumping around celebrating with the players 200 miles from home and encouraging them to hold on than analysing it on tv.

Nothing will or can match getting an equaliser in Cork this season when we were outplayed. I can watch hundreds of times and analyse it all I want but being one of 75 fans on a weekday night at Turner's Cross makes the rubbish worthwhile.

I don't disagree with you for a second, but you like many others are failing to distinguish the difference between understanding the culture and tradition of football and actually understanding the game.

My previous post indicated that I felt many avid followers of live football fell into this bracket. You go for the passion of being a part of a group, the agony, the ecstacy, understanding anything about how the game is played is not a prerequisite to enjoy this. I'm not saying you do or you don't however, just that understanding the game is entirely seperate to the culture of it.

And attending live matches certainly doesn't necessarily give you a better perspective on the game than someone who doesn't.

kerash

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Lets say I watch a certain team on TV, read their and other football websites, read the papers and go to games a couple of times a year and by all accounts have a good knowledge of the game.

Is my opinion less valid that that of someone who stands in the rain at Longford every other week ?.


This reminds me of that old tread ' Beauts and Teds' http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=306535

This arrogant p**ck reckons that in order to have a convesation with him you have top produce evidence of attendance at local football

You rang?:pac:

Jivin Turkey wrote: »

I've met plenty of people whose sole enjoyment of attending football matches is the tribal and social aspect of getting together with mates for the common cause.

Plenty of these haven't a notion of the fundamentals of tactics or strategy, yet alone what makes a good player and why.

Standing on a terrace every week does not give you a better understanding of football. Perhaps the culture and tradition of football, but that is far removed from the actual game itself.

PS I'm just back from watching a training game there tonight. Seeing as I doubt many people on this board saw a game in person this evening, is my opinion the most valid here?!

Very true.

Benedict XVI wrote: »

Football is an entertainment for it's fans, medicine is a matter of life or death, big difference.

Well I know someone who was very ill and I'd attribute their recovery in part to wanting to get back to watching a live football match.:)

Jivin Turkey wrote: »

The more I think about this the more it amuses me.

For all those saying that if you don't go to matches you don't really understand football I'd say, and I say this from experience, aside from seeing players work off the ball, what you see at a live game is far tougher to digest than what you see on the TV.

You can be in the stand behind one goal and see a goal go in at the other end, and think it is all down to a sweet pass from your striker when in reality it could have been a crap pass deflected into his team-mates path, you are just at too bad an angle to realise. Seeing as it's say Longford vs Cobh you'll probably never see this game in full on the TV and will always think of this as a piece of skill from your number nine.

If you watch it on TV you see everything analysed in detail so form your opinions on facts as opposed to observations, and I know what I'd rather rely on.

The things I've seen...better than any of your saturday evening premiership nonsense;)

LuckyLloyd

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You are a Sunderland fan from Sunderland who, when you lived there were a regular.

Your opinion counts.

Deco from Cabra who loves Arsenal, but has never been to London, who picked his team because they won the league the year that he realised he was a footie fan's opinion does not.

Whats difficult about this?

What's difficult about this is that football is now money. It's a business. Did you not get the memo?

Yeah, you guys are the real fans. Men of the soil, gloriously sacrificing your spare time and a few bob of expendable income for the pleasure of watching an inferior product and feeling "real", man. I guess the hidden attraction that the barstoolers have overlooked is the egotistical pleasure you get from knowing your "right".

Summer soccer was never really solution. Shamrock rovers don't need a new stadium in Tallaght - they need a church. That's right: THE CHURCH OF THE DOWNTRODDEN EIRCOM LEAGUE FAN. Go forth ye noble souls and convert the masses from a life of blissful ignorance. Be careful though - they'll turn on you once they realize that only the sneering, envious, self - righteous, preachy and smug should have stepped up to be baptized. And they'll REALLY get pissed off when their new priest urges them to vote for the workers party on general election day.

Deco went for the shinier product and the better advertising campaign. Why expect him to do anything different in the branded and materialistic Ireland he currently lives in? He's happy, so good for him. And you're right - so good for you.

No go whine about your misfortunes somewhere else. Deep down you know you'd hate it if you ever convinced us all to come out on a Friday. Because then you couldn't feel better than us.

LuckyLloyd

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You are a Sunderland fan from Sunderland who, when you lived there were a regular.

Your opinion counts.

Deco from Cabra who loves Arsenal, but has never been to London, who picked his team because they won the league the year that he realised he was a footie fan's opinion does not.

Whats difficult about this?

What's difficult about this is that football is now money. It's a business. Did you not get the memo?

Yeah, you guys are the real fans. Men of the soil, gloriously sacrificing your spare time and a few bob of expendable income for the pleasure of watching an inferior product and feeling "real", man. I guess the hidden attraction that the barstoolers have overlooked is the egotistical pleasure you get from knowing your "right".

Summer soccer was never really solution. Shamrock rovers don't need a new stadium in Tallaght - they need a church. That's right: THE CHURCH OF THE DOWNTRODDEN EIRCOM LEAGUE FAN. Go forth ye noble souls and convert the masses from a life of blissful ignorance. Be careful though - they'll turn on you once they realize that only the sneering, envious, self - righteous, preachy and smug should have stepped up to be baptized. And they'll REALLY get pissed off when their new priest urges them to vote for the workers party on general election day.

Deco went for the shinier product and the better advertising campaign. Why expect him to do anything different in the branded and materialistic Ireland he currently lives in? He's happy, so good for him. And you're right - so good for you.

No go whine about your misfortunes somewhere else. Deep down you know you'd hate it if you ever convinced us all to come out on a Friday. Because then you couldn't feel superior to us.

DSB

Posting it twice didn't make it any less silly. Football should only be a business in the eyes of the business men. Any football 'fan' who views it otherwise is literally just a consumer. Pathetic.

LuckyLloyd

DSB wrote: »

Posting it twice didn't make it any less silly. Football should only be a business in the eyes of the business men. Any football 'fan' who views it otherwise is literally just a consumer. Pathetic.

Sorry, I didn't deliberately post it twice - poxy internet connection.

However, the above is so incredibly naive. Football left you guys behind years ago. Just because you wish it wasn't one way and sink far enough into the depths to find remnants of the traditional way of doing things doesn't make things at the top level stop being so. The best players; the fastest games; the greatest shows of technical proficiency; infront of the biggest crowds is a carefully managed and packaged consumer spectacle.

Embrace it, enjoy what part of the global game YOU get a kick out of and move on. Or chose the bitter option and whine about it constantly for years to come. Know though, that the EL is doomed to never be more than it is - while the premiership could conceivably have double it's current merchandising capability in the Republic of Ireland in ten years time. Higher quality products generally succeed in a free and open market.

Pretending otherwise is pathetic.

DSB

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Sorry, I didn't deliberately post it twice - poxy internet connection.

However, the above is so incredibly naive. Football left you guys behind years ago. Just because you wish it wasn't one way and sink far enough into the depths to find remnants of the traditional way of doing things doesn't make things at the top level stop being so. The best players; the fastest games; the greatest shows of technical proficiency; infront of the biggest crowds is a carefully managed and packaged consumer spectacle.

Embrace it, enjoy what part of the global game YOU get a kick out of and move on. Or chose the bitter option and whine about it constantly for years to come. Know though, that the EL is doomed to never be more than it is - while the premiership could conceivably have double it's current merchandising capability in the Republic of Ireland in ten years time. Higher quality products generally succeed in a free and open market.

Pretending otherwise is pathetic.

Do you honestly think the local Liverpool fans or local Manchester United fans view football as a business? It is of course run by businesses who do what they can to make a profit, but for the people who arrive every week to see their team play, it is the football they care about. They don't view their team as a product or a package. Hicks, Gilette, and Glazer might, but sure isn't that why the fans don't like them in the first place? Because they're sneaky business men out only for their own benefit. They'll leave to the next chance at a few quid if the chance arises, the fans won't jump ship if Liverpool suddenly finish ahead of United in a season.

Obviously football has changed, and money gos through everything. This is the norm and is accepted from Man United to Kildare County. No League Of Ireland fan complains that to get the best players we have to pay big money. Thats why Bohemians are top of the league and not Bray Wanderers. This rings true into the Premiership. But for the typical match going fan, this isn't the beginning and end of supporting that club. They'll be at the turnstiles whether Liverpool are top of the Premiership or languishing in League 1. Man City and Leeds are prime examples. Were their products of exceptional quality at that point? Of course not. But I do assure you that if Liverpool were relegated 2 seasons in a row now, the new generation of Irish football fans won't be picking Liverpool, because their product isn't as attractive as Man United or Chelsea's, and their matches probably won't be on Sky all that much.

Such is the difference between consumers of a product and supporters of a football club.

Pure Cork

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I guess the hidden attraction that the barstoolers have overlooked is the egotistical pleasure you get from knowing your "right".

Deep down you know you'd hate it if you ever convinced us all to come out on a Friday. Because then you couldn't feel superior to us.

There's no hidden attraction. I love my local team. I wish more people would open their minds and support Irish football, but I'm not bitter about it.

You're more than welcome to come to a game if you're ever in Cork.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Football left you guys behind years ago.

Using that logic, football has left behind the vast majority of supporters in Europe. Ultras all over Europe display banners saying "AGAINST MODERN FOOTBALL". Simon Jordan is selling Crystal Palace, (he's been a lifelong fan), after becoming disillusioned with the game. It would be more correct to say that the top EPL teams, and the top Spanish sides (top Italian sides to a lesser extent) are leaving smaller clubs behind. The money they have to spend on players and marketing...

OhNoYouDidn't

DSB wrote: »

Such is the difference between consumers of a product and supporters of a football club.

Exactly. So his opinion is worth less than yours or mine. Its simple really.

LuckyLloyd

DSB wrote: »

Do you honestly think the local Liverpool fans or local Manchester United fans view football as a business? It is of course run by businesses who do what they can to make a profit, but for the people who arrive every week to see their team play, it is the football they care about. They don't view their team as a product or a package. Hicks, Gilette, and Glazer might, but sure isn't that why the fans don't like them in the first place? Because they're sneaky business men out only for their own benefit. They'll leave to the next chance at a few quid if the chance arises, the fans won't jump ship if Liverpool suddenly finish ahead of United in a season.

Obviously football has changed, and money gos through everything. This is the norm and is accepted from Man United to Kildare County. No League Of Ireland fan complains that to get the best players we have to pay big money. Thats why Bohemians are top of the league and not Bray Wanderers. This rings true into the Premiership. But for the typical match going fan, this isn't the beginning and end of supporting that club. They'll be at the turnstiles whether Liverpool are top of the Premiership or languishing in League 1. Man City and Leeds are prime examples. Were their products of exceptional quality at that point? Of course not. But I do assure you that if Liverpool were relegated 2 seasons in a row now, the new generation of Irish football fans won't be picking Liverpool, because their product isn't as attractive as Man United or Chelsea's, and their matches probably won't be on Sky all that much.

Such is the difference between consumers of a product and supporters of a football club.

But the ratio of diehard regular fans / two, three time a year daytrippers from a different city or country falls further towards the latter on a yearly basis. More and more teenagers and kids are coming into contact with football through the prism of Super Sunday on Sky Sports.

My whole point is not that the way things are panning out at the top level is to be admired - just that it is the way it is. And the game has followed this course with all the gathering, multiplying momentum of an avalanche. I have conceded that you guys are more homespun and traditional - more "real" as football fans go. But I will not concede that your opinion is somehow more enlightened or worth more than that of the barstooler - or any fan for that matter.

You may insist that your claim over the game is more valid - but the clubs and leagues spend all their time trying to woo and attract those very "fans" you most despise. If the Eircom league was to ever be a success and become even twice what it is now it would need a significant injection of daytripping fans who buy jerseys; profess their diehard support for Pats or whoever but see 90% of that teams game from the comfort of the couch or their local. Going forward, the hardcore is NOT going to be the key ingredient of largescale footballing success. It is maintenance of the much greater soft core support who pay the subscriptions; snap up the merchandise and give weight in the negotiations with prospective sponsors who will matter more to ambitious clubs.

Tribalism, tradition and passion will be the words the losers use to comfort themselves. The trophy winners will be corporate, business savvy and embracing of the new. It is the logical progression for a game that has spent the last 15 years working hard to shrug off it's working class roots - the fans who travel in packs; know all the chants and are always there are gradually being pushed to one side. Is that bollocks? Sure. But the sooner you start accepting things for the way they are the sooner you might start properly enjoying the whole thing.

bohsman

The day Glazer is handed the premiership trophy/European Cup/Whatever in front of a full OT is the last premiership game Ill watch - I watched the superbowl last year, couldnt believe it.

You realise all this **** goes both ways Lloyd? Its not that el fans suddenly decided to attack PL fans, EL fans constantly have to put up with how can you watch that rubbish etc, there are easily more anti el posters on here than there is a holier than thou brigade.

Pure Cork

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If the Eircom league was to ever be a success and become even twice what it is now it would need a significant injection of daytripping fans who buy jerseys; profess their diehard support for Pats or whoever but see 90% of that teams game from the comfort of the couch or their local. Going forward, the hardcore is NOT going to be the key ingredient of largescale footballing success. It is maintenance of the much greater soft core support who pay the subscriptions; snap up the merchandise and give weight in the negotiations with prospective sponsors who will matter more to ambitious clubs.

Tribalism, tradition and passion will be the words the losers use to comfort themselves. The trophy winners will be corporate, business savvy and embracing of the new. It is the logical progression for a game that has spent the last 15 years working hard to shrug off it's working class roots - the fans who travel in packs; know all the chants and are always there are gradually being pushed to one side. Is that bollocks? Sure. But the sooner you start accepting things for the way they are the sooner you might start properly enjoying the whole thing.

The LOI doesn't need daytrippers from abroad, it needs people who are living in Ireland to come to games and buy merchandise.

Tribalism: Sounds like GAA speak
Tradition: Lots of clubs, even Manchester United, take pride in their tradition
Passion: What the hardcore fans have for their club, whether their club is in the LOI, EPL, Serie A - Serie D.

Football shrugging off it's working class roots is primarily an English thing.

As for ordinary fans being pushed aside, it's also primarily an English thing.

LuckyLloyd

bohsman wrote: »

The day Glazer is handed the premiership trophy/European Cup/Whatever in front of a full OT is the last premiership game Ill watch - I watched the superbowl last year, couldnt believe it.

You realise all this **** goes both ways Lloyd? Its not that el fans suddenly decided to attack PL fans, EL fans constantly have to put up with how can you watch that rubbish etc, there are easily more anti el posters on here than there is a holier than thou brigade.

That is fair Oscar - and it is tiring both ways every time we rehash this same debate. I am galled when people on either side of the fence get those little bouts of silliness they are so fond of. For me, saying that EL teams would compete in the Championship is just as idiotic as the Utd fans who claim invincibility after winning a league by a goal here and there and a EC on a coinflip.

Football breeds exaggeration, pettiness and stupidity. Which is fair enough - because for all it's ****ing problems I still love it!! Both extremes of this debate are equally irritating - for to claim that liking one part of the huge mess that is modern football is somehow better or "more valid" than another is ridiculous imo. For me you're a real fan and can have a opinion once you meet the only important qualification - that you love watching a game of football and allow yourself to be stirred up by it. That's it.