Evolution...and heaven

koolkakool

Ok, im not quite sure if im in the right place, but i'll continue anyway.

Im sure you all know about evolution, humans evolving from some sort of fish, to apes to humans etc etc...

Anyway, that brings me to my questions...

Whats so special about humans?
Are we not just a type of animal that slowly evolved to be smarter...?
Why do we get a heaven(if it exists) ?, what about all the other animals?
surely they should go to heaven...?
And if i'm doubting about the existence of heaven, and it turns out it does exist, does that send me to hell or expel me from heaven?

Anyway, sorry about all the questions, im just curious about what you think about all of this.

StormWarrior

You may be interested in reading James Redfield's The Celestine Prophecy

koolkakool

StormWarrior wrote: »

You may be interested in reading James Redfield's The Celestine Prophecy

thanks, ill look it up.:)

BroomBurner

Did you not see that animated film All Dogs Go To Heaven?

It's a hard one, because Heaven is where you go if you lead a good life, which is such a subjective perception - what is a good life? When it comes to animals, humans can not decide whether an animal has led a good life as a lot of animals are predators and are required to kill others for food. Ergo, if Heaven is a creation of the human mind, then allowing us to decide who gets in there is slightly big-headed of us.

If Heaven is real (which would be my belief, though I don't know what Heaven is, obviously), then we would need to believe that all are welcome, regardless of species. Some things are bigger than us.

nyarlothothep

I believe some animals go to heaven. There has been scientific research into animal behaviour which demonstrates that some animals, like people, are jerks. I've encountered a few asshole dogs in my time so I guess animals that are asses go to hell, or purgatory.

koolkakool

So what would you believe happens if someone doubts the existence of heaven (or God), and it turns out it does exist?

Bible quote: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

does that mean im screwed if God exists? (i actually believe in a God or some sort of creator at times, but sometimes i doubt the whole thing, i dont really know what to believe at times)

nyarlothothep

I believe nothing will happen because the bible is an historical human creation which describes some real events but mixed up with supernatural stuff. When you sleep there is a stage where your brain is effectively off line. You don't remember anything from this state as you are not active.

Tbh, I don't believe in an afterlife, though I hold out on one existing just because it would suck if it didn't, and also while there is the argument that you are just a computer, I find this unconvincing as we are comparing a vastly more complex piece of tech to the products of our own evolving science...its about as meaningful as comparing a supercomputer to an abacus, a lot of factors get lost in the translation to prove one fundament. I think the mind is a global phenomenon, a gestalt entity which imprints its reality on the fabric of existence.

If you read the old testament god is a psychotic tyrant (he does a u-turn I think in the new testament, strangely enough) One example would be when he commands the jews to raid a village, kill the women and children but safeguard the gold, sounds phisy coming from an omnipotent being.

If you've ever watched Star Trek 5, when they meet god he turns out to be an alien with great powers who is tricking them. Much in the same way I don't think the god of the bible is real but a fabrication for the times to give jewish people hope amidst various political forces.

kelly1

koolkakool wrote: »

thanks, ill look it up.:)

kkk, I seriously recommend you don't. You're not going to find the truth in it.

kelly1

koolkakool wrote: »

So what would you believe happens if someone doubts the existence of heaven (or God), and it turns out it does exist?

Bible quote: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

does that mean im screwed if God exists? (i actually believe in a God or some sort of creator at times, but sometimes i doubt the whole thing, i dont really know what to believe at times)

We're all screwed kkk if we don't repent and ask God's forgiveness. Unfortunately for man pride is a tall hurdle that's not easily jumped.

The sad thing is that people don't see the value of being a child of God. God's grace elevates our dignity way above our inherent dignity. We can receive nothing greater in this world than God's grace. God's grace, even though totally undeserved and given only because of God's goodness and generosity, makes us like God and to reject this grace is a terrible affront to God considering how lowly we are compared to God.

I understand your confusion. We live in a world of very mixed messages (most of which are false). Fortunately we have a Good Shepherd in the form of Jesus Christ. He will never lead us astray and will never let us down.

I'd recommend you start by simply praying for faith. You can be sure God will answer if you really mean it. It certainly worked for me!

God bless,
Noel.

AtomicHorror

koolkakool wrote: »

Whats so special about humans?

There are very few, if any, features which set us apart from other animal species. Only the extent of certain traits (such as creativity) and their combination makes us "special". Only from our own perspective mind you. Evolutionarily, we are no more fit than any species currently existing (assuming they aren't in decline).

koolkakool wrote: »

Are we not just a type of animal that slowly evolved to be smarter...?

Every observation we have made to date says "yes".

koolkakool wrote: »

And if i'm doubting about the existence of heaven, and it turns out it does exist, does that send me to hell or expel me from heaven?

That would depend on which version of heaven you'd be talking about. I don't think you need to worry about it.

flynnc8

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I believe nothing will happen because the bible is an historical human creation which describes some real events but mixed up with supernatural stuff.

I dont believe that nothing happens after death, However I'm totally with you in regards to the bible its self.. I believe it to be no more then a novel/semi biography of a man seeking power, praise and following. There are so many events in the Bible that leave more to science than miracals and others that are just impossible.

I do believe there is an afterlife of some sort, I just dont think that we should be forced to act or behave in a certain way in order to be happy in that after life.. After all we are all human and no one is perfect.

In my opinion We already live in Hell, not the awful firey place which is described in the bible, but a life that throws obsticals at us and gives us a hard time. In order to be happy in the Afterlife, we must over come these obsicals and live life to its fullest.. Then we will truely be happy after death knowing we made the effort and have no regrets.

God in my eyes is no more then a historical character/ cult leader/ figmanent of imagination. Furthermore if he does exist he is no more then a dictator who demands people to do as he says live as he wishes or be tortured in hell for your disobiediance against his rule.

Bryan Habana

flynnc8 wrote: »

However I'm totally with you in regards to the bible its self.. I believe it to be no more then a novel/semi biography of a man seeking power, praise and following.

Personally I disagree. I see the central message as one of love and compassion. The message of helping our fellow man is emphasised throughout...(e.g. washing the feet of the apostles emphasised his humility). Also, If God sent his only son to seek power, why was he allowed to suffer throughout his life?

flynnc8 wrote: »

I do believe there is an afterlife of some sort, I just dont think that we should be forced to act or behave in a certain way in order to be happy in that after life.. After all we are all human and no one is perfect.

I believe God gifted us with freewill. Therefore we choose how to live our lives. No we are not perfect. But I believe trying to live an honest and decent life is the goal. We don't need to be saints to help those around us and many of us do this naturally anyway.

flynnc8 wrote: »

God in my eyes is no more then a historical character/ cult leader/ figmanent of imagination. Furthermore if he does exist he is no more then a dictator who demands people to do as he says live as he wishes or be tortured in hell for your disobiediance against his rule.

How does He demand this?

feaven

Bryan Habana wrote: »

Also, If God sent his only son to seek power, why was he allowed to suffer throughout his life?

I think he was implying that god didn't send that individual.

Bryan Habana

feaven wrote: »

I think he was implying that god didn't send that individual.

Fair point, but in the context of the bible I personally don't see how those traits 'power' and 'praise' can be associated with our Lord.

flynnc8

Bryan Habana wrote: »

How does He demand this?

He demands this by setting out his ten commandments, as well as preaching through jesus such things like "A man should not lay with another man as they would with a woman" or that "man should not eat shellfish" or other ridiculous versus within the bible.

If these DEMANDS are not met or you sin against god you will burn in a fiery hell or worse even, you shall not be one of the choosen ones when jesus returns to save us all once again.. To me that is bribery/ DICTATING, live life as I tell you to or you will suffer or be tortured.

In order to avoid either of these circumstances you must repent, you must beg for mercy, you must make god fell so powerful that your faith rests in his hands, and that only he can forgive you...Even if you have forgiven yourself you must still seek approval from God, which is just a way of handing over POWER.

feaven

Aye, what he said.

sink

flynnc8 wrote: »

In my opinion We already live in Hell, not the awful firey place which is described in the bible, but a life that throws obsticals at us and gives us a hard time. In order to be happy in the Afterlife, we must over come these obsicals and live life to its fullest.. Then we will truely be happy after death knowing we made the effort and have no regrets.

This may be slightly OT. How does Christian belief in free will approach the substantial medical evidence that a Acquired Brain Injury can cause a severe acute shift in the personality of the afflicted. There are many cases documented in medical journals worldwide where previously good and caring people who suffer from a stroke or some form of severe brain injury can change into violent narcissist's. I would hypothesise that this is evidence that complete free will does not exist and we are in fact subject to our own mental condition. Does the Christian belief in final judgement hold that a previously good practising Christian who suffers an ABI will be sent to hell for all eternity?

flynnc8

sink wrote: »

Does the Christian belief in final judgement hold that a previously good practising Christian who suffers an ABI will be sent to hell for all eternity?

Very Interesting point to raise, it is definitely something that I have not thought about before. It would be of huge interest to see how members of different religious organisations feel about this situation!! Both personally and within their religions itself..

As I said I have never thought about it before, but in my opinion it is another one of those obsticals that life throws at you. Ok, so it is most likely an obstical that you have absolutely no control over but then again, you haven't got much control over many things in your life.. Its an awful thing to think about, But it just furthers my belief that we are already living in "hell" or more lightly a bad place that can only lead to greener pastures.

I would imagine that Christians and other religious believers will argue that it is the work of Satan, some sort of test for the family and friends of the unfortuanate victim who gave into sin and abandoned the lord.

btw, I'm not totally anti religion I just personally haven't got much faith but I do respect other peoples belief, even if it turns into a minor debate sometimes..

sink

Ah yes but then god himself breaks one of his own laws, that of free will. God gifted us free will and no one not even he can take it away, except for the fundamentalist Christian god who can do whatever the feck he likes, contradiction or not contradiction. I'm not a Christian so I could be wrong on certain Christian beliefs but afaik Catholicism and other more moderate churches believe that God is so perfect and constructed the universe so perfectly that he would not allow these contradictions to exist and when he gave us free will not even he could or would want to change or contradict it.

Flamed Diving

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Tbh, I don't believe in an afterlife, though I hold out on one existing just because it would suck if it didn't.

Why? Doesn't an eternal afterlife only serve to cheapen the only life you know exists? I think life is only worth living if you know it is going to end, anything else is just pointless.

Flamed Diving

kelly1 wrote: »

kkk, I seriously recommend you don't. You're not going to find the truth in it.

Why? Because it disagrees with your magic tome?

nyarlothothep

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Why? Doesn't an eternal afterlife only serve to cheapen the only life you know exists? I think life is only worth living if you know it is going to end, anything else is just pointless.

Enjoyment can be derived from the fundamental nature of whatever you're doing, not with respect to its longeveity. I take the view that if an afterlife were to exist it would enhance this one. It would offer new possibilities for understanding the reality we inhabit and for reflection on ourselves. Life for me is not pointless but it would be better if it was vastly extended to almost, if not, infinity.

Flamed Diving

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Enjoyment can be derived from the fundamental nature of whatever you're doing, not with respect to its longeveity. I take the view that if an afterlife were to exist it would enhance this one. It would offer new possibilities for understanding the reality we inhabit and for reflection on ourselves. Life for me is not pointless but it would be better if it was vastly extended to almost, if not, infinity.

You dont find the idea of an infinite existence horrible? I really hope there isn't one. An infinite existence would be hell, satan or not. I like the idea of life being a journey from being a baby to an old man and then death. That is natural and has balance.

EDIT: I just re-read your first line, nevermind.

nyarlothothep

Flamed Diving wrote: »

You dont find the idea of an infinite existence horrible? I really hope there isn't one. An infinite existence would be hell, satan or not. I like the idea of life being a journey from being a baby to an old man and then death. That is natural and has balance.

EDIT: I just re-read your first line, nevermind.

Its the infinity of non existence which is terrifying, at least to me. Even though fear of death is an evolved trait and subjective, its the fact that its forever, atemporal, because it is forever, this is extremely bad. There is no 13 billion year break from life and then back to it. Its forever. With the privilege of sentience, only for this to be taken back, its beyond cruel, especially for humans. We are imo too evolved for the measly lifespans we are given. Peter F. Hamiltons Commonwealth Saga, now that is the future I would envisage as being uber cool. Balance can be created I believe through other means, its about finding ones way, balance is within ones mind, but accepting the cards we are dealt, I disagree. Lets change the rules of the game!

Flamed Diving

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Its the infinity of non existence which is terrifying, at least to me. Even though fear of death is an evolved trait and subjective, its the fact that its forever, atemporal, because it is forever, this is extremely bad. There is no 13 billion year break from life and then back to it. Its forever. With the privilege of sentience, only for this to be taken back, its beyond cruel, especially for humans. We are imo too evolved for the measly lifespans we are given. Peter F. Hamiltons Commonwealth Saga, now that is the future I would envisage as being uber cool. Balance can be created I believe through other means, its about finding ones way, balance is within ones mind, but accepting the cards we are dealt, I disagree. Lets change the rules of the game!

As Mark Twain said, "I was dead many years before I got here, and it didn't bother me one bit."

nyarlothothep

true, you're not there to contemplate the sh1ttiness of death, still sucks when you're alive.

Flamed Diving

nyarlothothep wrote: »

true, you're not there to contemplate the sh1ttiness of death, still sucks when you're alive.

It does suck when you live with uncertainty, but I have been quite sure of my position for many years now and I am perfectly happy with how things are. As long as I live a good, long life I wont have any complaints. For me, knowing that I have, on average, about 75 years on this planet makes me value them all the more, and makes life a much richer experience. But whatever works for you.

nyarlothothep

Flamed Diving wrote: »

It does suck when you live with uncertainty, but I have been quite sure of my position for many years now and I am perfectly happy with how things are. As long as I live a good, long life I wont have any complaints. For me, knowing that I have, on average, about 75 years on this planet makes me value them all the more, and makes life a much richer experience. But whatever works for you.

exactly. Though if you were offered an extension of 70 more years would you take it, with the possibility of cool new scientific advancements, like virtual cyberspheres and aliens?

Flamed Diving

nyarlothothep wrote: »

exactly. Though if you were offered an extension of 70 more years would you take it, with the possibility of cool new scientific advancements, like virtual cyberspheres and aliens?

I imagine that if I lived long enough to survive into an age of limitless life (due to advanced medicine), I would eventually wind up killing myself.

nyarlothothep

well at least then you'd have some control over you're destiny no? As in Peter F Hamilton, when people got sick of living they joined a consensus of human minds melded with a robotic intelligence called the SI, kind of like ego death but they retain something of themselves but in a new group mind not governed by human emotions. So the boredom of infinity would no longer be a priority.

Bryan Habana

flynnc8 wrote: »

He demands this by setting out his ten commandments, as well as preaching through jesus such things like "A man should not lay with another man as they would with a woman" or that "man should not eat shellfish" or other ridiculous versus within the bible.

If these DEMANDS are not met or you sin against god you will burn in a fiery hell or worse even, you shall not be one of the choosen ones when jesus returns to save us all once again.. To me that is bribery/ DICTATING, live life as I tell you to or you will suffer or be tortured.

In order to avoid either of these circumstances you must repent, you must beg for mercy, you must make god fell so powerful that your faith rests in his hands, and that only he can forgive you...Even if you have forgiven yourself you must still seek approval from God, which is just a way of handing over POWER.

You raise some interesting points. But those quotes appear in the Old Testament as opposed to being preached by Jesus. To me his message is one of compassion and hope.

As for the dietary laws, the bible also states that "every moving thing that lives shall be meat for you" (Genesis 9:3). I don't really get that shellfish thing though.

As for homosexuality, the bible only contains a handful of quotes loosely related to it. There's even debate amongst Christians regarding the accuracy of translation of those quotes. In this case there's no reason to conclude that God hates homosexuals or demand they repent.

I suppose for me the importance of the bible would be less a record of actual events, but rather stories illustrating how to live ethically and authentically in relation to God. Rather than viewing God as all demanding, I try to take meaning from the biblical passages.

To illustrate: consider the passage of God helping the lowest member of society, the person with lepercy. I remeber a poster a few months ago who had lost everything: their home, their job and their family. They were looking for support of some kind. Many posters told her she was trolling and should pull her act together etc. To the amazement of all others one poster offered her a place to stay, a job and encouragement. That poster was praised by all even though there was high risk on their part.

I'm sure everyone can think of similar examples. That's why I see the bible as a way of life in general. Comparing the altruism in biblical stories with modern life helps me recognise the inspiration and hope in our Lord's teachings. That type of meaning in my life greatly surpases one or two 'contradictory' quotes.