Examiner article on Gun ownership

CJhaughey

An article in todays Examiner has a piece on gun ownership.
Fine Gaels Charlie Flanagan had a lot to say on the matter:
"We have seen a big increase in the number of hand guns and many are falling into the wrong hands.
Obviously, hand guns are used for legitimate sporting purposes, but we are seeing increasingly more in the hands of criminal underworld figures and I want to see the laws tightened to prevent this."
Is Mr Flanagan privy to information that the wider community is not ?
I am not aware that many handguns are falling into the wrong hands.
Perhaps there should be questions asked of Mr Flanagan?

packas

There are probably a lot of handguns falling into the "wrong" hands but I'd bet none of them are handguns that were stolen from people who had them licenced for target shooting. it would be a safe bet to say that the guns in the "wrong" hands were smugged into the country. Articles like this are great PR for the politicians as they're seen to be clamping down on guns. One thing I do agree with though is that people should have good reason to have them i.e. target shooting & they should have to regularily use them for target shooting. If not they should loose the licence. Target pistols (depends on your discipline as to what you consider a target pistol) are not throphies.

Grizzly 45

Define regular use Packas?.Thats pretty dangerous terrority to be going into.How many times a month would you need to be qualified??There are some of us who would really like to get out more,but due to life and job constraints cant.So this would obviously mean we are not dedicated to it enough,are a danger and shouldn't have a liscense?????Bit too much big brotherism for my liking.
As for Me Flanagan,indeed he should be called to order and made qualify his sweeping statements.It is of course silly season and of course the press will print any ol rubbish at this time of year to sell their rags.:rolleyes:

packas

Hi Grizzly45.

The people I'm referring to are those who have them soley as trophies & who are not members of any shooting clubs i.e. people who have them simply because they can rather than because they want to go target shooting. Appologies if I was not clear enough in my statement. As for it being dangerous territory is the proof of regular use not used successfully in other parts of the world?

regards,
Pat.

cavan shooter

Dare I say it I have read worst articles However the comment

"We have seen a big increase in the number of hand guns and many are falling into the wrong hands".

Is scare mongoring and typical of an oposition TD,

Ahearns response seems quite balanced to say the least.

Grizzly 45

Hi Packas/Sparks.
First off my apologies,it WAS a genuine typo,didnt even realise that it happened.:o.
To your point,re proof of useage.Not really,in most of the EU,you sit a test to prove your competance with the firearm,or firearms,and thats it.No one cares if you go shooting once a day or never again.They only want to see if you are competant and fulfil the critea laid down by law for training.
Same as no one wants to know how much driving you do after you pased your liscense.
So that puts in the situation,do we want a totally authorithian situation that decrees you MUST shoot so many rounds PA or attend a club every month.Or do we want a totally authorithian situation that sends EVERYONE regardless of experiance back to school to learn about guns ,class 101,that also costs a fortune to do and requires three years of compulsory attendance at a range as well????
I would personally go a 3rd route,the NRA saftey courses for whatever firearm you want .You do it ,get certified by a qualified instructor within a weekend,pay a reasonable price[which goes back into shooting] and thats it.You are a qualified and liscensed gunowner for that type of firearm.Then what ever disipline you want to do you go and get yourself liscensed in that as well.
Regds
Grizz

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Same as no one wants to know how much driving you do after you pased your liscense.

Actually, there are regular calls to reintroduce testing for your driving licence at regular intervals, and there's now an annual requirement for a set number of hours per year for all bus drivers.
The FAA pilot's licence would be a better example. One test and no checks afterwards until it's time to get the eyesight checked due to old age.
And there are rather spirited debates on the pros and cons of that system.

So that puts in the situation,do we want a totally authorithian situation that decrees you MUST shoot so many rounds PA or attend a club every month.

...as in the UK...

Or do we want a totally authorithian situation that sends EVERYONE regardless of experiance back to school to learn about guns ,class 101,that also costs a fortune to do and requires three years of compulsory attendance at a range as well????

I've been talking a bit in the last few weeks about that whole beginners course thing, and to be honest, it's a bloody brilliant idea.

Look, take archery (I'm using archery here because I've been mucking about in it and have been surprised in a bad way by the things that they have that we don't). Want to start in archery? Every club out there (go check out www.dublinarchers.com site) has a six week beginners course. €60, one night a week, six weeks, all club kit. End of the six weeks and you have no injuries, a good idea of what you think of the sport and a route to continue on to keep it up. You know who to talk to about membership, and membership of what, and it's all been explained to you. You've seen lots of different kinds of kit and have been told about what kind of kit you should be looking to buy and when and where to buy it and what's a gimmick and what's not and what's too much for you and what isn't; and you've been taught how to use and care for that kit. And you have further course afterwards.

We have nothing like that. Geoff out in WTSC is running one now for airguns (we're just finishing up the first trial run of the course), and it works, but I've never heard of it or anything like it in other clubs.

Another thing is that there's the arrows/fletches system of gradings in FITA. Start off with the kiddies in the fletches system and adults in the arrows, and it's like coloured belts in the martial arts - you learn a bit, then do a test, and if you show you've mastered the bits you've learnt, you get the little pin with the coloured arrow (going from white to black to blue to red to gold). It's a pathway into the sport. By the time you've gotten your golden arrow, you're pretty much at the stage where you're shooting good scores on a national level, you know your kit back to front and how it works and how to choose it and how to train and so on. I've seen folks in rifle shooting who've been in the sport for forty years and never learnt their kit or sport to that level.

This whole pathways concept - look, seriously, it's so damn useful that if it meant you couldn't have a grandfather clause for the old hands, I'd still recommend it. It's just too damn good for the sport in the long run.

3rd route,the NRA saftey courses for whatever firearm you want .You do it ,get certified by a qualified instructor within a weekend,pay a reasonable price[which goes back into shooting] and thats it.You are a qualified and liscensed gunowner for that type of firearm.

Yeah, but there's been (and still are) rows over that sort of thing as well (and we're not getting into them here, I'm just pointing out that it's not a foolproof system). It might be best to not use an external system as the final one chosen, but to do up a course here. I've already explained that if you do it under the relevant ISO standard that we get a situation where any club that wants to train its own people can do it; and so can any commercial operator. Room for everyone in other words, without a falloff in standards. It's how everything else in this country that's taught properly is taught.

meathstevie

May I add that the NARGC runs a good basic safety course as well on a county level and the cost of the course is next to nothing at 15 Euro. Although members are under no obligation to attend it's policy to encourage all NARGC gunclub members to attend at some stage. The course although covering general aspects of gun safety is predominantly aimed at hunters.

As for Grizzly's idea about the competency test I'd be all for it. Whether you ever fire a gun after passing should be up to you once you've proven yourself of sufficient standard to hold it in case you might want to use it. Face it, would you bother dragging yourself through a few exams if you've no interest in what comes after ?


A good few European countries actually use a varied licencing system.

I have some knowledge of the Belgian one :

There's a hunters one that covers all aspects of hunting legislation, relevant firearms legislation, safety and marksmanship. You have to pass on all aspects and from then on you can freely buy any long arm usefull for hunting purposes on the condition that you register it in your name, be it shotgun or rifle. Whether you ever shoot a bunny after is up to you but why go through all the hassle if you aren't because those exams aren't easy as a first time pass mark of below 50% points out.

For target shooters there's a seperate licencing system where the test is purely based on legislation and safety and doesn't licence you to hunt. Since recently under the sportshooter category of licences you have to join a range or a club. Under these licences you could be talking about a revolver, a pistol, a fullbore rifle or a clayshooters shotgun.

A fair few people would also hold guns for reasons of self defence which doesn't come into our scope of discussion and I won't elaborate much further on it except stating that you're talking about the likes of jewellers, cash transport staff, bank managers etc... .

Grizzly 45

The FAA pilot's licence would be a better example. One test and no checks afterwards until it's time to get the eyesight checked due to old age.
And there are rather spirited debates on the pros and cons of that system.

Could well imagine.As when I was doing my commerical training,it was EVERY Commerical pilot was fearing the medical more than a check ride.
Still,if youare in charge of 400 plus lives somwhere over the Pacific,I personally,wouldn't want my or the guys up front eyesight or ticker to go.

...as in the UK...

Well, Orwellian society how are ye?

This whole pathways concept - look, seriously, it's so damn useful that if it meant you couldn't have a grandfather clause for the old hands, I'd still recommend it. It's just too damn good for the sport in the long run.

It is a good arguement Sparks with many valid points.However TIME is a precious commodity these days,and I'm sure I'm not alone in saying some of us dont lead such regulated lives that we can go back to school and re learn all this eventhough many of us proably have over two hundred years collective wisdom on shooting.I found this with scuba diving here.Took me two years to qualify under the CMAS system.Only stuck with it due to there being nothing else at the time.But was bored out of my tits with it.
Fast fwd to me re doing my cert 20 years later.Did the PADI system,and was qualified within 72 hrs.Was there much difference,PADI got you in diving quicker,CMAS was more detailed and regulated and tedious,but proably safer.
To sum it up.We need somthing that will not become soo tedious that unless you are totally dedicated to a lifestyle change,or that it is a farsical"do you know what end the bullets come out of?"test.
A happy compromise is doubtlessly possible.


MS,what you are describing is the German hunting &sport shooter system as well to a T. However they just take longer about it in the Western Federal States.You can do the German hunting liscense in the East States for appx 1/3rd the price and within 30 days intensive course.However it is looked with distase by the Westies[for obvious reasons].However you are IMO still as safe and as competant as any other.I found as do many German hunters,is there REALLY any revelance anymore EG in learning horn signals,when most driven shoots now use handheld 2way radios? This is what I would be worried about,our shooting/hunting courses being bogged down with unnecessary and irrevelant knowledge when the more vital stuff is so far ahead that it would bore those that were enthuastic to tears and give up.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

It is a good arguement Sparks with many valid points.However TIME is a precious commodity these days,and I'm sure I'm not alone in saying some of us dont lead such regulated lives that we can go back to school and re learn all this eventhough many of us proably have over two hundred years collective wisdom on shooting.

Not all of us have loads of money either Grizzly, and how many stories have we been hearing in the last few years of the SSIA shooters? You know, the ones whose SSIA matures, they get a wodge of cash, go to spend it on something and then one day turn up on a range with absolutely top-of-the-line kit and absolutely no knowlege of how to use it or care for it. I've heard of folks showing up with five grand's worth of rifle and scope and running a hundred rounds of 308 through it in a half-hour, from new, without cleaning the gun once. Things like that would indicate to me that the few weeks of learning the basics would save a lot of cash for folks.

meathstevie

Sparks, to be honest with you if someone wants to destroy or mistreat their kit I couldn't really give a fiddlers about it as long as nobody is in any danger.
There's plunkers out there who hardly ever service their car properly as well and that's far more dangerous in my opinion.

Where testing or training of some sort is crucial is in safety related aspects of shooting sports. And those basics are the same for any firearm and any discipline. For the hunters among us this is even more important for the simple reason that there's no range officers or range discipline at the side of a ditch. What I would argue for is for example a short safety related multiple choice test ( shouldn't take more than half an hour ) to be completed in the local garda station under supervision when applying for a first licence. If we started right now I guarantee you that within 15 minits we could come up with 25 valid questions and answers that could easily be moulded in a simple exam that anyone who's got their basic knowledge up to scratch would pass with flying colours. On top of that you'd also take a good bit of wind out of the scaremongers' sails.

Dr Strange

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

... is there REALLY any revelance anymore EG in learning horn signals,when most driven shoots now use handheld 2way radios? This is what I would be worried about,our shooting/hunting courses being bogged down with unnecessary and irrevelant knowledge when the more vital stuff is so far ahead that it would bore those that were enthuastic to tears and give up.

I would argue that it is part of the traditional German hunt. Fair enough, maybe put it in as an extra no-points part of the German course but I would hate to see traditions being lost. There is a proud hunting tradition in Germany and horn signals are part of it. Keeping up with modern techniques etc is imperative but don't discard the historical background.

BUACHAILL

I am gonna say just one thing on this. " big increase in handguns and they are falling into the wrong hands ". There is two types of handguns users. Licensed and unlincensed. All of us Licensed users are not the wrong hands otherwise we would not have been granted a licence. I feel it needs to be much clearer. It crosses over and implies that licensed users are not safe hands!! If i am licensed its because firstly i have a sporting use for it and I hold the correct safety criteria to own one.

Wrong hands as stated is people who go and buy them on the black market for other criminal purposes. Nothing wrong with more handguns as long as it is to Licensed responsible users.

rrpc

As far as I know in Italy there's a system somewhat similar to what Sparks is describing. This is for target shooting, I've no idea what their hunting rules are, but anecdotally it doesn't sound great.

For target shooting, you join your local Tiro di Segno Nationale Sezione (the TSN is run by the Department of the Army ) and only after you have joined and done your training do you get your licence.

There are TSN Sezione all over Italy in every major town, so it's no great effort to find a local one. Some of them have their ranges very close to the towns and strangely enough seem to have no trouble getting planning pernission.

Spain has a system somewhat similar as does France.

Sparks

meathstevie wrote: »

Sparks, to be honest with you if someone wants to destroy or mistreat their kit I couldn't really give a fiddlers about it as long as nobody is in any danger.

I can't agree, for two reasons:

1. I don't particularly think that'll do the sport a lot of good in the long run and the bad word-of-mouth it creates is particularly unpleasant; and
2. if they know so little that words like "boresight" mean nothing to them, and they're putting a hundred rounds of 308 downrange on their first day without some sort of coaching, then the odds of all 100 hitting the target are low and the odds of all 100 hitting the berm are somewhat questionable.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing for everyone else in our sport.

Where testing or training of some sort is crucial is in safety related aspects of shooting sports. And those basics are the same for any firearm and any discipline.

To a degree, yes. Very basic stuff at that degree though, mostly the only thing in common between all rifles, pistols and shotguns is "don't point it at anyone". Get more complicated than that and you start having to learn firearm-specific stuff.

For the hunters among us this is even more important for the simple reason that there's no range officers or range discipline at the side of a ditch. What I would argue for is for example a short safety related multiple choice test ( shouldn't take more than half an hour ) to be completed in the local garda station under supervision when applying for a first licence.

Good idea, but I think maybe the venue's a bit off.

If we started right now I guarantee you that within 15 minits we could come up with 25 valid questions and answers that could easily be moulded in a simple exam that anyone who's got their basic knowledge up to scratch would pass with flying colours. On top of that you'd also take a good bit of wind out of the scaremongers' sails.

That's pretty much the case. The actual testing or training themselves are not an issue most people have any problem with, and designing a sane test and sane training is something that you could do in a day. The problems arise when you start talking about stuff that has nothing to do with the tests or training themselves - questions like who is allowed to design the tests, who is allowed to administer them, who is required to take them and that sort of thing; and then you start to see a lot of people behaving in a way that is commonly refered to in derogatory terms. The issues of "control" and "power" start cropping up, and then everything goes pear-shaped in very, very, very short order.

Grizzly 45

Not only that you are going to have some sort of effective appeals mechanism,that is open and transparent,and not run by the body who admins the tests.

Sparks

The fustrating thing is that there are mechanisms already out there in Ireland and in use which would permit all of this

thehair

Sparks wrote: »

The fustrating thing is that there are mechanisms already out there in Ireland and in use which would permit all of this

+1:)



it would be great if ever club was to teach safety first and then after that
you can apply for a FAC WITH say 10hours OF TRAINING but it is not
going happen. when i apply for my first FAC i was not asked can you shoot
and that is were i see the need for 10 hours of training SAFETY SAFETY
IS THE ONLY WAY TO GO steve:)