"Third-level fees being considered"

chat2joe

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0811/education.html wrote:

Third-level fees being considered

The Department of Education has confirmed that it is considering the reintroduction of third-level fees.

It is understood that any new charges would target better-off families and would not apply to the less well off.

Minister Batt O'Keeffe is understood to be looking at the return of fees in the context of the economic downturn.

However any such significant policy change would require full Government approval.

Since the abolition of fees under the Rainbow Coalition in the 1990s, the numbers of students going to third level has gone up.

However universities have complained of difficulties in competing on the international stage in the absence of funding.

The Irish Times, 11/08/08 wrote:

University fees for better off are back on agenda says O'Keeffe

THE RETURN of third-level fees is no longer being ruled out as the Government seeks to ensure the universities are properly funded, Minister for Education Batt O'Keeffe has said.

In a significant policy change, Mr O'Keeffe told The Irish Times that third-level fees were back on the agenda. However he stressed there was no question of imposing new charges on those who could not afford them.

Any new charges would specifically target better-off families and those with incomes well above the national average.

The Minister stressed that any move in this direction would require Government approval.

While the programme for government promised no return of college tuition fees, Mr O'Keeffe said this commitment was predicated on robust economic growth of 4.5 per cent. Clearly, the economic parameters had now changed, he said.

Mr O'Keeffe said he had a responsibility as Minister to ensure the high quality of the third-level sector was maintained.

"If we are in a situation where the economy is weak, I have to ensure that high standards in our third-level colleges are maintained."

He said his department would conduct a "forensic audit" of third-level spending before making any decision, focusing on specific universities and institutes of technology. "I want to see how the colleges are spending the existing funds. I want to make sure we are getting full value for money."

The abolition of fees in the mid- 1990s led to much wider participation at third level, but it has also seen a boom in private education. About one in four second-level students in Dublin attend fee-paying schools or grind schools, charging more than €5,000 a year.

There is a growing belief in Government circles that better-off parents should be asked to support much- needed investment in higher education through fee reintroduction.

There is also growing support in education circles for a graduate tax scheme, based on the Australian model which has been in operation for more than a decade. This would see graduates repay the cost of higher education through their taxes.

Mr O'Keeffe's initiative comes as third-level colleges struggle to cope with a deepening funding crisis. He is due to meet university heads to consider the issue next month.

Last month, the seven university heads warned that cutbacks in degree courses and support services were inevitable as the Government moved to impose a 3 per cent cut in payroll costs. The colleges have also been ordered to impose a 50 per cent cut in their marketing and advertising spend next year.

Earlier this year, UCD president Dr Hugh Brady and TCD provost Dr John Hegarty made an unprecedented joint appeal for greater funding to allow Irish universities to compete internationally. They said universities had suffered a 40 per cent cut in net funding in the past decade. A majority of the seven universities are now running a budget deficit.

University heads say the Government's ambition to establish world-class universities is unrealistic given current funding levels, which lag well behind those available to competing universities in Britain and the EU.

© 2008 The Irish Times

Q1. Discuss. :P

challengemaster

Wait, they got the idea from the fact that we're in a recession..where nobody can afford things? Yet they want people to pay for college fees aswell?

I'm thinking they didn't go to third level.

carlowboy

challengemaster wrote: »

Wait, they got the idea from the fact that we're in a recession..where nobody can afford things? Yet they want people to pay for college fees aswell?

I'm thinking they didn't go to third level.

While I'm against the idea of fees, it was always going to be the first thing to fall in a recession. The idea of no fees is a luxury and the government needs to free up the money it spends on it.

gaeilgegrinds

It will only be for those who can well afford it, it's been mentioned time & time again. Don't let it worry any of you for whom it may be a problem. And, as with everything in this country, it'll take time!

straight_As

If these fees are reintroduced, I think the government would be shooting itself in the foot.

Firstly, the third level sector will begin to lose the best students. A few weeks ago, Hugh Brady, UCD President, said he wanted to keep the best potential students in college in Ireland. Now, if the best students are given the choice of Cambridge/Oxford or any Irish Uni, with the same rate of tuition fees, I think they'd pick the higher ranking in this list.
http://http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/hybrid.asp?typeCode=144

Secondly, would you trust the government to handle this money correctly? I mean, e-voting, massive admin costs, ridiculous potential salary increases for THEMSELVES in a recession? Waste like this, surely, is a pre-cursor to more inefficiencies?

Lastly, approaching from a purely economic standpoint, if the government begins to increase these taxes, and that's what they are, surely less money will be available for the consumer to pump into the limping economy and like a catch-twenty-two, more money will be required in these taxes to fund further the third level sector.

Overall, I, obviously, don't agree with this reintroduction. Sure at the moment, one of the big incentives for students to attend Irish universities is the free fees, right?

Piste

We should all had over to the college fora and make a plea to all members of clubs and socs not to be wasters and have these huge pissups at the college's expense because it means we'll have to pay fees :pac:

If people have to pay fees for third-level education it means that parents will start sending their kids to public school instead of private so that they can afford college. This will put a huge strain on already overcrowded public schools and then we'll have the college problem all over again with underfunded secondary schools.

brianthebard

Its been shown time and again that free fees has benefitted the better off families more than those they were intended to help-why not even the playing field a bit?

1huge1

Either way it wont be introduced this year, and hopefully by the time it could be introduced the economy will have have bounced back... Optimistic thinking

PurpleFistMixer

Bastards. Bastards! Let's just go and rename ourselves "America Lite", we're half way there already.

chat2joe

Piste wrote: »

We should all had over to the college fora and make a plea to all members of clubs and socs not to be wasters and have these huge pissups at the college's expense because it means we'll have to pay fees :pac:
....

Clubs and Socs don't get funding for "pissups". It's a common misconception. Clubs and Socs regularly have parties but they're usually either paid for by the members (bulk order split amoung the members) or it's in a venue that'll do special promotions. All receipts and budgets are carefully monitored - there's not just a big tub of cash to play with.

The only cases I know of free "pissups" is with the youth political parties' societies - and the money for this is pumped in from the main party, nothing to do with college.

So there

hatrickpatrick

:mad:
Surely they have to give some notice of this? I mean, they can't introduce fees all of a sudden for those who are already in third level education?

ciaranajl

If we want to survive this recession we need to have a superb education system and if the Irish population is seen on the "international stage" as being well-educated, in come the multinationals -- or at least that's one factor that attracts them. I agree that if they universities need more funding then fees should be increased, but nowhere near what you have to pay in the US.

PurpleFistMixer

Knowing the government, even if they did decide on it today it wouldn't happen for years.

However, just because you personally don't have to pay fees, it doesn't make it any less terrible. Think of the children!

raah!

Our degrees will be teh more valuable now!

But srsly, that's pretty messed up. If it were introduced in my time I might actually have to switch the college I'm going to or take loans or something... or like try for some kinda scholarship.

And then there could be only rich people in colleges, so they'd become just another cesspool of greed and capitalism like that institute of education, and then an aristocracy will develope again. Then we'll all be off to the workhouses/farms. If we want more soup we'd have to be all "please sir, can i have some more".

This recession is serious business.:(

Économiste Monétaire

raah! wrote: »

so they'd become just another sess-pool of greed and capitalism like that institute of education, and then an aristocracy will develope again.

The green eyed monster is a terrible affliction. Judging people you don't know is just a sign of extreme ignorance.

PrivateEye

****. In other parts of the world, third level education is seen as a 'class thing', and a door not open to everyone. Yeats said in the senate that "We ought to be able to give the children of the poor as good an education as the children of the rich", and while no doubt most people in the state considering college would be far from 'poor', college is still a huge financial burden on an ordinary family. Where do they draw the line too? A family with two parents in full time employment for instance, would they end up paying (beyond the current fees) to send their kids to college? Because if they would, don't expect them both to stay in work.

Amazing cock up by the government if it's true. A group of brain dead do-nothings, if they think closing the third level door on most people is a way of tackling the recession, they're in for a shock. An educated workforce is one of our biggest sellers.

'No matter who you vote for, the government will get in'

PurpleFistMixer

UCD_Econ wrote: »

The green eyed monster is a terrible affliction. Judging people you don't know is just a sign of extreme ignorance.

And yet you just judged, without knowing raah!, that their words were motivated by jealousy. Hmm.
(Also, a personal bone of contention, I hate the way some think that anyone fighting against capitalism is just jealous of rich people.)

cul-2008

My mother told me this while I was eating my breakfast this morning - I nearly choked! What a complete load of boll*cks. :mad:

As many of ye have said, we're going into a recession yet those gobsh*tes in Government consider charging us for our so called 'free education'. Despite the fact we're already expected to pay 'registration fees' in the high hundreds, course fee's amounting to thousands every year is yet another burden for parents and students alike.

In my home, my father is the only parent who works. But because he earns over €49,000 a year, just about, "we're well able to live a life of luxury". No grants, part fee's if I'm lucky, private health care (recent specialist visit cost €15 A MINUTE), rising fuel costs for diesel and home heating, insurance on the up constantly, a mortgage to pay - the list is endless.

I'm in no way looking for sympathy here folks, but because of the way that shower of idiots in Dáil Éireann classify things, us "wealthy people" :rolleyes: will be landed with bills in the thousands for third level education.

If the government did'nt p*ss money down the drain by funding Bertie Ahern's €70,000 office re-vamp and employing outside companies to "help the HSE counduct their meetings" at a cost of €21,000 then we might actually find a rational way of surviving through this so called 'recession'.

Earth to Brian Cowen & Bat O' Keeffe - do ye copy?

raah!

UCD_Econ wrote: »

The green eyed monster is a terrible affliction. Judging people you don't know is just a sign of extreme ignorance.

Well I wasn't being totally serious..... as maybe you could tell by the tone of the entire post?

Anyway, it's perfectly ok to make judgements on people you don't know. If we were forced to get to know everyone before we formed an opinion of them you'd end up being stabbed by some scumbag in some back alley somewhere.

And as fistermixer said there, jsut because someone has feelings against the excessive accumulation of money, doesn't make them jealous. Not everyone values it as much as you do. To assume they do is "just a sign of extreme ignorance"

brianthebard

chat2joe wrote: »

Clubs and Socs don't get funding for "pissups". It's a common misconception. Clubs and Socs regularly have parties but they're usually either paid for by the members (bulk order split amoung the members) or it's in a venue that'll do special promotions. All receipts and budgets are carefully monitored - there's not just a big tub of cash to play with.

The only cases I know of free "pissups" is with the youth political parties' societies - and the money for this is pumped in from the main party, nothing to do with college.

So there

are you sure bout all that?What uni do you attend?

Économiste Monétaire

PurpleFistMixer wrote:

And yet you just judged, without knowing raah!, that their words were motivated by jealousy. Hmm.

There’s a difference between out posts. The IOE wasn’t the topic of the thread. It was out of the blue and named as a cesspool of ‘capitalism’, the comment reflected an opinion. The majority of people who comment on the IOE have never been there and jump on a bandwagon of hating it. The green eyed monster is a regular inhabitant of that. That’s from experience.

PurpleFistMixer wrote:

(Also, a personal bone of contention, I hate the way some think that anyone fighting against capitalism is just jealous of rich people.)

And I have a bone against people who think they know what capitalism actually is, confusing it with what’s called corptocracy, but also assume there is a viable alternative to capitalism.

raah! wrote:

And as fistermixer said there, jsut because someone has feelings against the excessive accumulation of money, doesn't make them jealous. Not everyone values it as much as you do. To assume they do is "just a sign of extreme ignorance"

Would you moan if you were placed into possession of an ‘excessive’ amount of money? I highly doubt it. If yes is the answer then your opinion is hypocritical, if 'no' then fair play - keep fighting 'the man'

PurpleFistMixer

UCD_Econ wrote: »

There’s a difference between out posts. The IOE wasn’t the topic of the thread. It was out of the blue and named as a cesspool of ‘capitalism’, the comment reflected an opinion. The majority of people who comment on the IOE have never been there and jump on a bandwagon of hating it. The green eyed monster is a regular inhabitant of that. That’s from experience.

It doesn't change the fact that you judged him/her by assuming what his/her motives were in making the post. And as she/he responded, judgement based on experience (if we take second hand experience of people getting mugged in alleyways by scumbags as relevant in this case) is acceptable, as you yourself are now illustrating. So we're all on the same page, but your first statement, "Judging people you don't know is just a sign of extreme ignorance." is either wrong, or has both of you as being extremely ignorant. Pick your choice.

UCD_Econ wrote: »

And I have a bone against people who think they know what capitalism actually is, confusing it with what’s called corptocracy, but also assume there is a viable alternative to capitalism.

And I will give you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you're not referring to me, and we will continue on our merry ways.

To get back on topic, I'd definitely have to agree with straight_As. If fees were brought in at a level comparable to those in other countries, I would definitely consider applying to somewhere like Cambridge, etc. If we have to pay for it for the sake of international standings, may as well go for the best available.

hatrickpatrick

If experience tells me anything, the earlier we form an impressive voice of opposition to this, the more likely the government will be to quietly abandon the proposal...

Jack Sheehan

I don't think this will happen, because in the end, Fianna Fail always prefer to do nothing than to introduce an unpopular piece of legislation.

raah!

UCD_Econ wrote: »

There’s a difference between out posts. The IOE wasn’t the topic of the thread. It was out of the blue and named as a cesspool of ‘capitalism’, the comment reflected an opinion. The majority of people who comment on the IOE have never been there and jump on a bandwagon of hating it. The green eyed monster is a regular inhabitant of that. That’s from experience.


And I have a bone against people who think they know what capitalism actually is, confusing it with what’s called corptocracy, but also assume there is a viable alternative to capitalism.


Would you moan if you were placed into possession of an ‘excessive’ amount of money? I highly doubt it. If yes is the answer then your opinion is hypocritical, if 'no' then fair play - keep fighting 'the man'

My original post was a reference to a post made previously on the laura brady thread. Now as I've said already, It wasn't an entirely serious post. Simply a reference to a previous post which I'm sure many of the posters here would get.

Now while this is irrelevant, I will clarify something for you. What most people are refering to when they say that "capitalism" is disgusting etc, Is the value that certain people place on money. The opinion that success can be measured in currency, is I think what most people have a problem with. It's not that they are jealous, if you can believe that!

That you'd say "you're jealous" simply highlights a complete unawarness of this and perhaps you're simply touting this out as you went to the institute and are yourself one such person. Or maybe you just like this type of person who knows.

Piste

I know the idea is only charge people who can afford it, but seeing there have been free fees for almost twenty years parents don't have college funds set aside for their kids so they'd have to cobble to money together from somewhere. They should at least give parents a chance to save up first of all.

the_syco

It will only be for those who can well afford it, it's been mentioned time & time again.

This is utter bo||ox. The only people who can't "afford it" are the ones on the dole, or on minimum wage. The government has been throwing money at them, and there hasn't really been a high pickup, we're told, as every year, they want more money thrown at them? So if they're given free 3rd level education... oh, wait, they could've had it for the past number of years, but never took it, so why will they start now... and everyone else who is going to college, scraping it along, will now have to pay?

As someone said, if you're gonna have to pay, may as well goto Cambridge.

chat2joe

brianthebard wrote: »

are you sure bout all that?What uni do you attend?

Yep sure, was on committee of both clubs and socs - NUI Galway.

Piste

I've spoken to people on committees of clubs and socs not nearly as together as yerselves who throw money around on nights out and "refreshments".

KnifeWRENCH

I am against the introduction of fees but tbh it wouldn't affect me personally.
While free education is obviously the ideal situation, introducing fees on a means tested basis is certainly better than expecting all students to pay equal fees.

In fairness, Minister O'Keeffe didn't say the plans were definite, they are just being explored. And I very much doubt the Government will introduce the proposals if it meets mounting opposition like Noel Dempsey's plans a few years ago. The Opposition parties, the coalition parties, The USI and even O'Keeffe's predecessor Mary Hanaffin are all against it.

Nanaki

Surely the ridiculous wages for the Dail should be first to fall? Lead by example, or somesuch thing. People would be more likely to accept cut backs if these talkers were getting paid less for doing what they do best - talk.

Can you imagine the protests if this was introduced? :P heh
Anyone got rough numbers of third level students nationwide?