CAN drive, WON'T drive?

pnag

Okay, so first off, I should explain I'm still fairly boiling over, so I'll try to be as calm as possible...

I've been driving for over a year now, with my wife in the car (full license!) and have driven from east coast to west, north to south. I've tried to be good and avoided using motorways except where it would add on many hours to our journey. I've had recently 'appointed' full license earners in the car, and (what I would consider) good drivers of 10 or 20 years experience, all being as critical as they could. All reckon I was in a strong position to pass. Some of them even used the sheet from the actual driving test - and were VERY critical!!!

ANYHOW...

I took a pretest with a local driving instructor. The result? Total fail.

My gears/clutch control? Failure to make sufficient progress? No. Observation. Apparently, shooting a side look to the left hand mirror before I indicate left, and again before I change lanes, IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. No, I have to turn like feckin' robot so the gobdaw in the passenger seat can SEE that I'm looking at it. Well, GUESS WHAT?!? I drive LESS safe like that!!!

So, after the pretest, I took a long drive with the wife (> 2 hours, the poor thing having to put up with me!) and tried the "head staggered" mirror looking, just cause that's what they want! And my steering veers all over the place. It's a JOKE!

It's funny, but I've now even taken a turn against reversing around corners! I can do it perfectly, but it strikes me as so ludicrous and unsafe, yet that's a part of the test, and PARKING ISN'T?!? I don't want to drive in a country that makes pish of driving safely and practically.

It's my ball and I'm going home!!! Anyone got any calming advice? Please, and not to cause offence, but I've had it with the "Sure you just have to do it for your test!" brigade - they can all feck off! It's supposed to be a driving competence and SAFETY test - looking at mirrors like that is NOT safe!!!

Dave147

You're absolutely right, however, just drive like a retard for the test and go back to your way of driving after. Only solution.

pnag

Cheers Dave, I know what you mean but I just can't - I've always been too much of a boyscout, you know?

This situation is just plain wrong, and everybody just accepts it. I can't stand it, and am seriously thinking of giving up driving. Honestly! Not to mention that about what, ten years ago, I could have got a free license through that bloody amnesty! And those drivers are still out on the roads...

SeanW

I hate to be part of the "Sure you just have to do it for your test!" brigade
but
Sure you just have to do it for your test!

That's how it works, and EVERYONE who has a Irish drivers license today (save for those who got their licenses pre 1964 or in the '79 Amnesty) went through the drill.

A lot of people don't regard 'test standard' and 'normal' drivng as bearing any correlation with each other. Not that 'normal' driving isn't good driving necessarily, but between the manevures that you might never do again like the reverse around a junction, the head movements that you do not consider normal or safe, the preciseness that is required for things clutch control, 10AM and 2PM hand positions on the steering wheel ... it's just the kind of thing that is a non-issue once you have your nice pink license.

You're absolutely right, however, just drive like a retard for the test and go back to your way of driving after. Only solution.

Quoted For Truth. Really, it's the only way.

You are a good driver, if what you say is true, and you deserve a license as much as anyone else. Play the game and you win. It's that simple.

Cabaal

pnag wrote: »

So, after the pretest, I took a long drive with the wife (> 2 hours, the poor thing having to put up with me!) and tried the "head staggered" mirror looking, just cause that's what they want! And my steering veers all over the place. It's a JOKE!

So let me get this straight, if you look away from the road and look to your left or right your steering veers all over the place? and you consider yourself a safe driver?

I've been driving since March and I have to say this was never an issue for me even when I first started, for what its worth I now have my full license.

It's funny, but I've now even taken a turn against reversing around corners! I can do it perfectly, but it strikes me as so ludicrous and unsafe, yet that's a part of the test, and PARKING ISN'T?!? I don't want to drive in a country that makes pish of driving safely and practically.

The same tactics used for reversing around a corner can be used for backing into a parking space, as such you should be able to do it, if your not then your not able to control the car

Stark

Get a new instructor if you feel the current one is giving you bad advice. I had a similar problem with the instructor for my first test. I didn't veer about the road, but with the bad advice he was giving me I was spending way too much time looking in my mirrors and not enough time focusing on the road ahead. Second time round I fared much better after having it drilled into me by subsequent instructors that a quick check of my mirrors was sufficient and it was most important for me to focus ahead.

For the record, my test sheet was littered with Xs under "mirrors" and "observation" first time round, whereas I had a clean sheet second time round in these categories. As more than one instructor has said to me: "It's about checking your mirrors at the right time, not about how often you check them or how much of a show you make".

Noopti

I took a pretest with a local driving instructor. The result? Total fail.

My fiancee was told by her instructor that she might as well cancel her test because she would fail. She passed.
A girl who my fiancee was also told to cancel (different instructor), because they would fail. They passed.

Maybe I am being cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me if there are instructors out there who say this just to get a bunch of lessons out of you.

My instructor was great, I had signed up to do 8 lessons, after 6 he told me I had a good chance of passing and put my last 2 lessons on hold, I passed, and saved 80 quid.

pnag

Cheers Noopti, I think you're right.

As for Cabaal, ah cop on to yourself, would you?!?

So let me get this straight, if you look away from the road and look to your left or right your steering veers all over the place? and you consider yourself a safe driver?

If I've to constantly flick my head to such a degree as to be noticeable to a tester, yes it does. When I turn my head left at a junction (and the car is stopped or slowed, ready to yield), then it's not a problem. But as for the constant, camped up version? Yes, it does.

And as for the reverse around corner = reversing into parking space, that's a lot of bull. It's nowhere near the same, nor as stringent!

Cabaal

pnag wrote: »

Cheers Noopti, I think you're right.

As for Cabaal, ah cop on to yourself, would you?!?

If I've to constantly flick my head to such a degree as to be noticeable to a tester, yes it does. When I turn my head left at a junction (and the car is stopped or slowed, ready to yield), then it's not a problem. But as for the constant, camped up version? Yes, it does.

May I suggest then that perhaps your over doing it when you turn your head, I did my test last week and could easily keep an eye on the mirrors without the need to madly swing my head around even while the car was moving.

Its all about the multitasking

And as for the reverse around corner = reversing into parking space, that's a lot of bull. It's nowhere near the same, nor as stringent!

would you not agree that reversing around a corner and keeping within a certain distance of the curb is a good way of proving that you can actually control your car,

if you don't believe this then what do you suggest instead to prove you can control your car?

biko

Chill OP, you come across like an old man saying "I've been driving for 20 years and never been in trouble. These young ones telling me what to do can stuff it".

If the tester cannot see you checking the mirrors then you are not checking them in his opinion (the opinion that matters).
If you don't want to move your head (perfect peripheral vision maybe) then indicate by saying "mirror check ok" to let him know you checked.

SheroN

The reverse around the corner tests a candiates obersavation and also their control of the car.

seamus

pnag wrote: »

If I've to constantly flick my head to such a degree as to be noticeable to a tester, yes it does. When I turn my head left at a junction (and the car is stopped or slowed, ready to yield), then it's not a problem. But as for the constant, camped up version? Yes, it does.

How about when you look over your right shoulder before you change lanes? Do you swerve then?

The main issue here is that you need to strike a balance between flicking your eyes and moving your head. You're not expected to fully turn your head and stare into your mirror, but at the same time the tester isn't a mindreader - if you're just flicking your eyes, then he has no idea when or even if you're looking at your mirrors. 9 times out of ten, he's going to miss your glance in the mirror. So you need to make sure that he sees your head moving, even when he's not looking straight into your eyes.

As someone else said:

"It's about checking your mirrors at the right time, not about how often you check them or how much of a show you make".

The tester will look out for you checking your mirrors at the right time, but if you're only moving your eyes, he's probably going to miss it.

Also, moving your head by a few degrees to see your mirror will give you some additional peripheral vision which you don't get by only moving your eyes, which can often lead to you catching something out of the corner of your eye which you may have otherwise missed.

And as for the reverse around corner = reversing into parking space, that's a lot of bull. It's nowhere near the same, nor as stringent!

Actually, it's very similar. Reversing around the corner shows your ability to maintain control of the vehicle while in reverse as well as keeping an eye out for danger. You'll use the manouver a lot more than you'd think - into and out of parking spaces, into and out of driveways and so on. If you can't turn the vehicle in something resembling a even arc while keeping an eye out for hazards, then you risk hitting or impeding other vehicles.

daveharnett

Dave147 wrote: »

You're absolutely right, however, just drive like a retard for the test and go back to your way of driving after. Only solution.

I'd agree with the other Dave on this. As I heard here a while ago, "just drive like a paranoid gimp for half an hour".

Develop a habit of moving your head when you check the mirrors (even the center one). No need to stare at the mirror or anything, just a slight movement of the head for the examiner's benefit. That should be enough, and you can promptly forget about it once you get the license.

Caychadh

Well my instructor told me the tester can tell whether you're just randomly swinging your head around or actually checking the mirrors, even if you don't move your head about. I just hope that's true. Either that, or I'll just get whiplash after the test.

Wishbone Ash

pnag wrote: »

No, I have to turn like feckin' robot so the gobdaw in the passenger seat can SEE that I'm looking at it. Well, GUESS WHAT?!? I drive LESS safe like that!!!

One can be penalised in the test for exagerating head movements.

pnag wrote:

tried the "head staggered" mirror looking, just cause that's what they want! And my steering veers all over the place. It's a JOKE!

A competent driver will easily make proper observations without allowing their position to alter.

pnag wrote:

but it strikes me as so ludicrous and unsafe, yet that's a part of the test

Why do you think it 'ludicrous and unsafe'?

Dave147 wrote: »

just drive like a retard for the test

If you've nothing constructive to add Dave, please stay away.

pnag wrote: »

This situation is just plain wrong, and everybody just accepts it

Everybody?

pnag wrote:

I can't stand it, and am seriously thinking of giving up driving. Honestly!

You are basing all this on one pre-test!

Forget about those silly pre-tests and get some driving lessons.

pnag wrote:

ten years ago, I could have got a free license through that bloody amnesty! And those drivers are still out on the roads...

Please read the charter (and it was in 1979 - not 10 years ago).

pnag wrote: »

As for Cabaal, ah cop on to yourself, would you?!

No back seat modding here. If you have a problem with a post please use the Report function.

pnag wrote:

that's a lot of bull

People are more inclined to help someone who is able to make their points in a calm, credible and constructive manner. Resorting to gutter language is futile.

jw297

I agree that the mirror-checking required for the test is a bit exagerated, and it took me a while to manage to drive in a straight line while looking around me. But I think its fair enough that the examiner needs to be able to tell that you're being observant. My boyfriend did a pretest yesterday and failed for not being observent, and did his test today and passed, and he reckoned he didn't do things all that differently, so it probably depends a lot on the person watching. I've also heard of someone failing because they were looking in their mirrors too much, though Im not sure if thats an urban myth... Anyway, my test is tomorrow, and no matter how over the top I think the regulations are, Im definitely gonna do what's needed to pass!!

Wishbone Ash

jw297 wrote: »

I've also heard of someone failing because they were looking in their mirrors too much, though Im not sure if thats an urban myth

It's no myth and a common cause of failure. If one is spending too much time looking in mirrors what about the road ahead!

jw297

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

It's no myth and a common cause of failure. If one is spending too much time looking in mirrors what about the road ahead!

Yeah, figured it would make a difference alright, though haven't heard of it happening to anyone I know personally. At times it seems hard to find the happy medium between what you as the driver thinks is safe, and what the instructor/examiner considers correct. Good to know I shouldn't exaggerate the observations too much in the test anyway!

wil

jw297 wrote: »

. My boyfriend did a pretest yesterday and failed for not being observent, and did his test today and passed, ...!!

What's a pretest?

I've checked in all the regulations and rules and cant find any mention of it anywhere.

Is it where you pay money to a guy who sits beside you for 40 minutes in silence and if he reckons you've paid him enough, he will tell you you've passed and it makes no difference because you still have to drive accompanied, despite the fact that you've just paid good money for an aimless drive?

Really cant understand why people dont do several mock exams before their leaving cert.:rolleyes: Maybe it's because one is sufficient to give an indication if you stand a chance of passing AFTER you've completed the course.

jw297

wil wrote: »

What's a pretest?

Is it where you pay money to a guy who sits beside you for 40 minutes in silence and if he reckons you've paid him enough, he will tell you you've passed and it makes no difference because you still have to drive accompanied, despite the fact that you've just paid good money for an aimless drive?

Well, I guess that's one way of putting it. I've a little more faith in the instructors I've had dealings with and found the pretest very useful to practice the test route in the same way as it would be done in the test.
The feedback is very useful and, if necessary, highlights what needs working on because the drive is properly marked, as well as the instructor advising about things. It's also good to practice the drive in silence, as my instructor is usually very chatty but the tester wont be, which surprisingly can make quite a difference to the nerves!

wil wrote: »

Really cant understand why people dont do several mock exams before their leaving cert.:rolleyes: Maybe it's because one is sufficient to give an indication if you stand a chance of passing AFTER you've completed the course.

As you say, one should be sufficient. I would also consider it a bit pointless to do more than one, as you should be ready at that stage - hence I mentioned doing the pretest, followed by the actual test.

seamus

wil wrote: »

Really cant understand why people dont do several mock exams before their leaving cert.:rolleyes: Maybe it's because one is sufficient to give an indication if you stand a chance of passing AFTER you've completed the course.

For many people, practice is a far more effective learning tool than simply reading.
Going over past papers and answering questions I always found was far more effective than reading or learning off stuff.

For some, revising the format of the test by doing a mock/pretest can be as important as what they know, as it prevents any surprises from appearing.

Any pretest I ever did, the guy sat there but did talk to me and give me feedback as we went along. I wouldn't pay someone to sit there mute and then give me a mark at the end. That's pointless.

Wishbone Ash

Many of those people who have been driving for years without passing a test seem to think that driving lessons are 'beneath' them and insist on doing loads of pre-tests instead of getting proper driving lessons. They have managed to get from A to B up to now and therefore, think that they are competent drivers.

seamus wrote:

For some, revising the format of the test by doing a mock/pretest can be as important as what they know, as it prevents any surprises from appearing.

Any driving instructor will know what is required in the driving test and can provide lessons in these matters.

In the different categories I've done, I've never done a pre-test and never heard the term until this Forum appeared.

It should also be remembered that learning to drive is for life not just to pass a test. Making comparisons with examinations such as the Leaving Certificate isn't that valid as many people drive on a daily basis and their safety and that of others is paramount. On the other hand, I haven't had much use for Latin since the LC.

wil

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

It should also be remembered that learning to drive is for life not just to pass a test. Making comparisons with examinations such as the Leaving Certificate isn't that valid as many people drive on a daily basis and their safety and that of others is paramount. On the other hand, I haven't had much use for Latin since the LC.

Precisely.

My comparison with the LC was for illustration of the absurdity.
People put way more credence in studying for subjects they may or may never use again, yet almost none of the same effort in learning a skill that will almost definitely benefit them for most of the rest of their lives.

So many people think a pretest will solve all their bad habits.
You learn nothing from a pretest except whether you might be up to a required standard or need to take more lessons. That is all.
Basically the information your instructor can give you without any pretest.

Quod erat demonstrandum:D

J_R

pnag wrote: »

Okay, so first off, I should explain I'm still fairly boiling over, so I'll try to be as calm as possible...


ANYHOW...

I took a pretest with a local driving instructor. The result? Total fail.

Apparently, shooting a side look to the left hand mirror before I indicate left, and again before I change lanes, IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Just half right. Quick side look is correct, but changing lanes you must also give a quick shoulder check. Otherwise you are 100% correct and in fact if you overdo the emphasis bit you will be marked.

pnag wrote: »

Anyone got any calming advice? Please, and not to cause offence, but I've had it with the "Sure you just have to do it for your test!" brigade -!

Yes ignore all the advice stating that you "do it for the test" brigade. Drive normally.

Also any instructor that says you must emphasis in any way whatsoever your mirror and observation checks is incompetent - change instructors.

sunnyside

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

In the different categories I've done, I've never done a pre-test and never heard the term until this Forum appeared.

Interesting because you clearly know lots about driving. My instructor the really good one, not the guy I was moaning about is always mentioning pre-tests. It appears that the instructors love doing pre-tests because it's easy money for them. He also says very few instructors are willing to take absolute beginners for any lessons and that some of the instructors like to spend the day close to or in the test centre doing pre-tests and renting out their car for tests.

Cork city seems to have lots of lazy driving instructors with no dedication to the job.:mad: Thankfully I've found a good guy and I really appreciate the help he's giving me.

Sqaull20

Cabaal wrote: »

.

The same tactics used for reversing around a corner can be used for backing into a parking space, as such you should be able to do it, if your not then your not able to control the car

What kind of idiot reverses around a corner?

It shouldnt be in the test, its stupid.Having 90% of the test in congested traffic through towns and city centres is stupid as well, most deaths happen on main roads, not at 15km/hr outside centra.

Thoie

Sqaull20 wrote: »

What kind of idiot reverses around a corner?

People who reverse into their driveways so that they're not illegally reversing onto a main road the next day, people reversing into parking spaces - those kind of idiots...

OP, when I was originally learning to drive many many moons ago, I was always being pulled up for observation. One day I said to my instructor "Did you see me check the mirrors there?" He said no. I then told him that the car behind was being driven by a woman with blonde hair, smoking a cigarette, there was a bike a few feet behind me coming up my inside, and that a woman with a pram had just come out of a house on the other side of the road a bit back. He turned around and agreed with all this. We came to the conclusion that I had my mirrors *too* perfectly aligned for my vision - we knocked each mirror a couple of millimeters out of whack so that I had to make more of an effort to look in them, but not mad head swinging, and that worked for me. Maybe try nudging your mirrors a teensy bit off kilter and see if that helps? Bear in mind the instructor/tester has to observe you doing the right things. No matter how stupid, if they can't see you doing it, then they can't see you're doing it right. If only your eyes are moving, then unless they're on your bonnet they can't see that.

Sqaull20

Thoie wrote: »

People who reverse into their driveways so that they're not illegally reversing onto a main road the next day, people reversing into parking spaces - those kind of idiots...

Yes thats reversing, its not around an actual " corner " is it?

Thoie

Sqaull20 wrote: »

Yes thats reversing, its not around an actual " corner " is it?

Well, if my driveway or parking space is perpendicular to the road, I would consider those corners, yes. Maybe we have different definitions of what comprises a corner?

Sqaull20

Thoie wrote: »

Well, if my driveway or parking space is perpendicular to the road, I would consider those corners, yes. Maybe we have different definitions of what comprises a corner?

In my 2 tests I reversed around an actual corner ( in an estate ).Also why doesnt the test include main road driving, most people spend most they're time on the main roads and its probably where most people get killed.

J_R

Hi,

There is no "Reverse Around the Corner" in the driving test. There is instead a "Reverse Manoeuvre" The verbal instructions the examiners gives for this is

"Reverse into this road on the left/right. You should continue reversing, while it is safe to do so, keeping reasonably close to the left/right. I'll tell you when you have gone back far enough; you may start when you are ready."

It is an exercise designed to see if the applicant is capable of "Reversing into a limited opening" and whilst doing so keeping good observation and control of the car

Please note the word corner is never mentioned.

Thoie wrote: »

Maybe try nudging your mirrors a teensy bit off kilter and see if that helps? Bear in mind the instructor/tester has to observe you doing the right things. No matter how stupid, if they can't see you doing it, then they can't see you're doing it right. If only your eyes are moving, then unless they're on your bonnet they can't see that.

There is absolutely no need whatsoever to misaligned your mirrors and I repeat any instructor who advises their pupils to do so is incompetent.




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