Without religion would humans still fear death?

Goduznt Xzst

I have to admit that when I stopped believeing in God and accepted the facts I went through a long period of depression and on reflection it matched closely the stages of the Kübler-Ross model. But I came out the other side with a calm acceptance of my mortality. I can firmly say that I have no fear of death.

The Kübler-Ross model has shown a lot of times that people diagnosed with a terminal illness will eventually reach a stage of acceptance. I've seen this personally myself with relatives in the late stages of cancer.

What I am wondering is if you think humans naturally have the ability to accept death? I mean as a child when you finally start wondering about life and death, seeing animals die and grandparents put in the ground at funerals, instead of having explained to you the life cycle of being a human you are told "he's in doggy heaven" or "Your grammy is looking down on you and smiling"... yada yada.

If a child is told that death is inevitable and not sugar coated do you think their mind would just naturally form an acceptance of it? Is our fear of death more to do with nurture than nature?

Galvasean

I think a fear of death is perfectly natural. It boosts the survival instinct.

AARRRGH

I think our instincts make us fear death. For example, animals are terrified of death yet they don't believe in Jesus.

I think religion helps people have morals as a lot of people don't naturally have a sense of morality. (I read that somewhere.)

Goduznt Xzst

I think there needs to be a differentiation between survival instinct and the inevitability of mortality.

You can have a fear for your survival whilst also being completely ok that you will eventually die.

I wouldn't walk out in front of a bus for fear of dying, but I am acceptant that one day I will be dead.

aidan24326

Goduznt Xzst wrote:

Without religion would humans still fear death?

Of course we would. I expect a fear of death is instinctive, hard-wired if you like. It's necessary so as to avoid situations that are life-threatening. Imagine if you didn't fear death at all, didn't care if you died tomorrow or the next day. Then why bother to look when you're crossing the road? Some fear of death is absolutely necessary for survival.

When you say you don't fear death, what you're saying is that you don't fear it in the long term, when it eventually comes your way hopefully aged 80 or whatever it might be. You certainly fear it in the short term i.e you would rather your funeral wasn't to take place in the next few days

robindch

AARRRGH wrote: »

I think religion helps people have morals as a lot of people don't naturally have a sense of morality. (I read that somewhere.)

Research shows that everybody has an inbuilt sense of what's appropriate to do and inappropriate to do in a given situation and that this sense of "morality" is present regardless of one's religious leanings.

Religious people do believe, though, that this sense of right and wrong is either absent or incompletely expressed without religion -- a feeling which obviously makes organized religion very appealing to people who find the world a confusing, dangerous or dirty place.

That's quite separate from the research which shows that societies with high levels of religiosity tend to have higher levels of social dysfunction than ones with low levels. I've yet to see the religious produce a convincing explanation for this.

Charlie3dan

I wouldn't of thought that religion was the reason we feared death in the first place. Actually, if the religious are supposed to live their lives in a way that ensures acceptance into heaven, you'd think they'd be only gagging to shuffle off this mortal coil and onto eternal paradise.

In fact the only reason they don't speed up their trips to heaven is because the holy books mainly forbid sucide. Apart from that you'd expect them to be lining up outside the doors of the euthanasia clinics........or at the top of tall buildings?

The atheist viewpoint of maximising life rather than constant preparation for death I find to be much more rewarding.
Although some people think it'll be the reason I burn in hell, which in turn, is my reason to disagree with AARGH's suggestion; that religion is helpful for building morals.

Dave!

I think fear of death is innate, because if you fear death you are more likely to avoid situations which may lead to your demise, and so will be more likely to live longer and so propagate your genes Isn't evolution great for explaining everything! :pac:

I personally am not AFRAID of death, because I really don't think there's anything after it to be unsure of or to fear (like say, hell). But I really really don't want to die, because I like being alive

Goduznt Xzst

Ok I am not talking about premature death, and a fear of it. Maybe the title is unclear and should be changed to "Without religion would humans accept death?"

I am talking about the finality of life and how all of us are dying. If you are given a death sentence and are told you are dying of a terminal disease you will eventual reach a stage of acceptance. You might not know the exact minute its going to happen but you accept it.

What I am saying is that even though people have a survival instinct they also have a dilusion that this survival instinct will keep them alive indefinitely, they also feel a separation from the animal kingdom by believeing they are above it. I'm asking is this belief naturally forming, through the egotistical nature of humans, or is it nurtured in humans from birth?

Using the Kübler-Ross model I feel humans, as children, get to the denial stage of grief about their mortality and never get past it due to having their fears stroked by the promises of religion and the comforting lies from parents about death.

Dave!

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Ok I am not talking about premature death, and a fear of it. Maybe the title is unclear and should be changed to "Without religion would humans accept death?"

I am talking about the finality of life and how all of us are dying. If you are given a death sentence and are told you are dying of a terminal disease you will eventual reach a stage of acceptance. You might not know the exact minute its going to happen but you accept it.

What I am saying is that even though people have a survival instinct they also have a dilusion that this survival instinct will keep them alive indefinitely, they also feel a separation from the animal kingdom by believeing they are above it. I'm asking is this belief naturally forming, through the egotistical nature of humans, or is it nurtured in humans from birth? .

Yeah I know what you mean, but I'm suggesting that perhaps fear of death by 'natural causes' is also innate, so that we do everything in our power to ensure we have a long life. If you don't fear death, then perhaps for example you'll be less likely to undergo rehabilitation in old age, and so inertia over a long period will shorten your life. That kind of thing.

I'm just speculating though

pH

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I have to admit that when I stopped believeing in God and accepted the facts I went through a long period of depression and on reflection it matched closely the stages of the Kübler-Ross model. But I came out the other side with a calm acceptance of my mortality. I can firmly say that I have no fear of death.

The Kübler-Ross model has shown a lot of times that people diagnosed with a terminal illness will eventually reach a stage of acceptance. I've seen this personally myself with relatives in the late stages of cancer.

Interestingly this month's issue of Skeptic has a great article debunking this model, now you're free of religion you can free yourself of pop psychiatry too.

Goduznt Xzst

pH wrote: »

Interestingly this month's issue of Skeptic has a great article debunking this model, now you're free of religion you can free yourself of pop psychiatry too.

maybe you could paraphrase what the articles main points are? How exactly does it debunk this model?

seamus

Fear of "the end" as it were, probably is affected as much by your stage in life as anything.

Many people experience something of an acceptance of the end as their children grow up and become adults and move away. Perhaps it's something instinctual - an acceptance that it's time to stand aside, happy that your purpose in life (procreation) has been fulfilled and will survive.

For me, the idea of death terrifies me purely because it means that I'm gone, it's over. And I like being here, so the thought of being gone, decayed to dust, never to experience life again, completely terrifies me. At the moment, I feel I would like to live forever - there's no limit to what you could learn and imagine the experiences.
So the idea that there's only so much I can ever learn and experience, scares me. It's probably more that it scares the control freak inside me

However, I know now that it worries me less than it did as a child. I can remember being far more scared of the prospect as a child, but I was able to push it aside because I had a religious cushion.
As I get older, I can imagine it becoming less and less of a worry.

Handsome Bob

Dave! wrote: »

I think fear of death is innate, because if you fear death you are more likely to avoid situations which may lead to your demise, and so will be more likely to live longer and so propagate your genes Isn't evolution great for explaining everything! :pac:

I personally am not AFRAID of death, because I really don't think there's anything after it to be unsure of or to fear (like say, hell). But I really really don't want to die, because I like being alive

One can be afraid of death regardless of how sure one is that there is no hell.

People can be afraid of dying from cancer and some other illness. Cancer is a very demeaning illness when it is terminal and people do not want to die like that.

Plus people can be afraid of death due to leaving there loved ones behind. For instance, when my godmother was dying of cancer, in her last days she said she was not afraid to die. But she was afraid for her young daughter, her parents, and her brothers. She wasn't afraid of death in itself, she was afraid of what death was taking from her.

KateF

Yes, fear of death is innate. When 'Fight of Flight' kicks in, you're not thinking "Oh I wonder will I get into Heaven?"...

Schuhart

robindch wrote: »

Research shows that everybody has an inbuilt sense of what's appropriate to do and inappropriate to do in a given situation and that this sense of "morality" is present regardless of one's religious leanings.

Would you have links to any of that research?

Dave!

I can't find the research that's already been done unfortunately, but I believe it's Marc Hauser who carried it out.

You can take the morality test here which was devised by Hauser, and is part of his ongoing research at Harvard.

edit:

He's an interesting (somewhat related) interview with him
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sYMdQeUDn4

eddyc

Yes definitely,

It's interesting to wonder if without the cushion of an afterlife would people have more respect for life.

If this life is seriously all there is would there be a greater push in the world to overcome the suffering of so many in the world.

Dades

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Without religion would humans still fear death?

Doesn't that presuppose that the religious don't fear death?

There may be no atheists in foxholes*, but I doubt that having religion is enough to remove the inherent fear of death for most common-or-garden believers.

Would be interesting to hear how any of our regular faith holders genuinely feel about the inevitable.

* Or in fact there may be plenty

seamus

eddyc wrote: »

It's interesting to wonder if without the cushion of an afterlife would people have more respect for life.

Tough one to say.
While the gut reaction is to blame religion for cheapening life - look at any orthodox country, particularly muslim, and the cheapness of life there compared to here.

But then what about in history? How many people happily slaughtered others in wars without a second thought? And without en excuse of religion to back it up?

Of course, it's complex. It's fair to say that any ideology which tells someone that they're better than another person by virtue of their birth/nationality/skin colour/belief, is likely to alter their view. If you believe you're superior, then clearly you're not going to have the same respect for someone else's life as for your own, because you don't believe that their life is worthy of that level of respect.

Since we're approaching somewhat of a unique period in human philosophy, where a significant amount of people are willing to accept that everyone is equal, regardless of their origin. Even if many don't practice it, it's become a major moral viewpoint on the planet, where it didn't exist before.

Since the major religions have bought into this ideology to some degree, it's tough to say whether religion cheapens life by its very nature.

Handsome Bob

Dades wrote: »

Doesn't that presuppose that the religious don't fear death?

There may be no atheists in foxholes*, but I doubt that having religion is enough to remove the inherent fear of death for most common-or-garden believers.

Would be interesting to hear how any of our regular faith holders genuinely feel about the inevitable.

* Or in fact there may be plenty

I'm Catholic (I use the term very, very loosely), I've posted my thoughts on death in post no.14

nozzferrahhtoo

I have never feared death and I have never believed in god. I was never converted to not believing, i just simply never believed it in the first place.
Death itself holds no fear for me.

I am mortally (pardon the pun) terrified of the PROCESS of death however. That is to say, of all the ways one can die the vast majority of them are decidedly unpleasant and / or painful and that terrifies me.

However as a man wiser than me once said, as best as I can remember the quote, "I was dead for a hell of a long time before I got here and it didn’t inconvenience me one iota".

I would question whether any animal is afraid of death either. Clearly they show fear in threatening situations, especially of painful ones, but how can we have any concept of whether they really know what there are afraid of…. That they hold any concept of existence versus non existence….. life as opposed to death. It is entirely likely that our species is the only one aware of death itself for them to be afraid of it.

Edit: I should also mention a Richard Dawkins quote at this point. Again from memory. "We are going to die.... and that makes us the lucky ones". In other words, there are so many millions upon millions of sperm/egg combinations that will never happen that you are insanely lucky to have the chance to die at all.

Goduznt Xzst

A person can have a fear for their survival whilst not being afraid that they will have to die eventually.

If it is innate then why does it turn itself off in cases of individuals diagnosed with terminal illnesses? All of us are dying so why don't we also have this same acceptance now?

It's hard to quantify, but my sentiments would be much like nozzferrahhtoo. I wish to survive for as long as possible, but I'm am not afraid of the fact that by at most 2070 i'll be dead. I am in full acceptance that there is no possibility that I will see the beginning of another century. I have no fear of my end because I'm appreciative of even having a start.

Tigger

i'm terrified of death why would stopping instead of carrying on forever make one less fearful

Handsome Bob

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

I have never feared death and I have never believed in god. I was never converted to not believing, i just simply never believed it in the first place.
Death itself holds no fear for me.

I am mortally (pardon the pun) terrified of the PROCESS of death however. That is to say, of all the ways one can die the vast majority of them are decidedly unpleasant and / or painful and that terrifies me.

However as a man wiser than me once said, as best as I can remember the quote, "I was dead for a hell of a long time before I got here and it didn’t inconvenience me one iota".

I would question whether any animal is afraid of death either. Clearly they show fear in threatening situations, especially of painful ones, but how can we have any concept of whether they really know what there are afraid of…. That they hold any concept of existence versus non existence….. life as opposed to death. It is entirely likely that our species is the only one aware of death itself for them to be afraid of it.

I agree with your assessment of death and as I said earlier on, the process of death is rarely a pleasant one. I won't say that I know 100% what will happen when I die, but I am not afraid of "non-existence". I see it as sleeping, you are not conciously aware of anything. I hold no fear of that.

Dades

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I'm Catholic (I use the term very, very loosely), I've posted my thoughts on death in post no.14

Thanks - your belief wasn't really clear there!

That said, while I think everyone would fear the manner of their death, I would imaging the OP's question related to fear or being actually dead. i.e. Are people afraid of the unknown?

Handsome Bob

Dades wrote: »

Thanks - your belief wasn't really clear there!

That said, while I think everyone would fear the manner of their death, I would imaging the OP's question related to fear or being actually dead. i.e. Are people afraid of the unknown?

Heh heh, no problem.

As I said just above, I'm not afraid of the unknown. I am slowly wheeling away from Catholicism into Agnosticism so I really don't have an iota of a clue of what will happen when I die. But, if it is non-existence, I am not afraid of it. I would not be concious of it so it doesn't worry me.

The process of death on the other hand very much holds fear over me.

Goduznt Xzst

Dades wrote: »

Are people afraid of the unknown?

well its not really the unknown... I mean if you accept reality there is no unknown after death.

Its more an acceptance of your own mortality, being conscious of the maximum amount of time you have left and also the time left of your relatives and friends.

I've noticed since accepting the reality of existence I'm a lot more considerate to my parents whom I accept I will have to bury sometime in the future. I view each time I see them as the last which has made me a much better person towards them. I also do what makes my heart glad, if other people view it as a waste of time, so be it, this is my life and I'll live each day of freedom that I have as I see fit.

I've always thought if you could hang a clock on someones wall counting down to the day they'll die they would fill their life with more of the things they love, less work and more work towards bettering themselves and society. There seems to be this denial in people, not just religious, who work menial repetitive jobs they hate, watch TV programs they don't care about and eat, drink and abuse their bodies like they will live forever.

I'm sure if everytime they reached for that pint of beer or cigarette another half hour was knocked of their time left to live they'd think twice about it.

Dades

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

well its not really the unknown... I mean if you accept reality there is no unknown after death.

I'm fairly convinced there is nothing after death - but I wouldn't claim to know it.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I'm sure if everytime they reached for that pint of beer or cigarette another half hour was knocked of their time left to live they'd think twice about it.

Of course another school of thought is because of our mortality we could go at any time, therefore eating salads and drinking spring water might be an awful waste of time. Also, although I do fear death, I think I fear being old, incapacitated or senile more. People don't just live longer these days - a lot of them just take longer to die.

Goduznt Xzst

Dades wrote: »

I'm fairly convinced there is nothing after death - but I wouldn't claim to know it.

My point is that an acceptance of reality will lead you to only accept provable evidence. I don't believe we can say there is anything known or unknown about existence after death because we have no evidence to suggest such a thing even exists.

Dades wrote: »

Of course another school of thought is because of our mortality we could go at any time, therefore eating salads and drinking spring water might be an awful waste of time. Also, although I do fear death, I think I fear being old, incapacitated or senile more. People don't just live longer these days - a lot of them just take longer to die.

Yes but again a human should live their life based on provable evidence. Healthy food and water has not been proven to reduce peoples life span, if they wish to die early rather than live a full life so be it. However I doubt there would be many young/middle aged people who wouldn't wish for more life on their deathbed. I'd rather reach an age where I had lived as much as I could and knew that I had survived to the end of my life.

Pompey Magnus

From my own experience I found religion to have had a negative affect on my attitude towards death. The fear that perhaps I have chosen the wrong denomination, maybe the wrong the religion, maybe I have the right religion but I won't meet the grade, what if I get into Heaven but some of my loved ones don't, how could I deal with never ending torture in the fires of Hell?

I certainly am not looking forward to death, but alot of the unneccesary baggage of religious fear has been discarded since I stopped believing.