Road rage during driving lessons

jw297

Hi,
The following incident happened during a driving lesson, so hopefully this is in the right forum.
I failed to stop in time and came to a stop with the front wheels of the car in a yellow box. I totally accept this was wrong, and my mistake, but all the same, I didn't cause any major obstruction or any danger as it was a very quiet road, and I was only partially out on the box. The woman in the car behind me got out of her car, pulled open my instructor's door, and started shouting abuse at him, about how he should know better as he's a driving instructor and he shouldn't be allowed in a car, and that she was going to report him to the school. I got the impression she wouldn't have done this to a driver without the driving school signs on the car. She didnt seem to realise that a learner driver was driving the car, and therefore could potentially make a mistake (as might any human being...). She kept the tirade up for a couple of minutes, and only when the people behind her started hooting because the lights were green she let go of the car I was in and went back to her own car. Needless to say, this was a very unpleasent experience, and left me quite shaken.
As I said, I know I was wrong to have come to a stop on the yellow box, but I think this response was totally over the top. Has anyone had an experience like this? I was speechless, and didnt have the presence of mind to get her registration. As a learner driver, I'd be interested to hear how people deal with being on the receiving end of this kind of thing - obviously I wouldnt stoop to her level and start screaming back at her, but is this kind of thing worth reporting? And does it happen often??

fasterkitten

She wasn't trying to turn into the junction at the yellow box but was behind you - is that right?

If so, what possible difference could it make to her where you stopped as long as you didn't do so abruptly (even so, she should be keeping her distance)?

Your instructor should have told her that he/she had taken her reg and would be reporting her antagonistic and threatening behaviour to the Gardai.

wil

Sounds more likely that she was hoping you would go through the lights and she intended to follow even as they had turned red.
You most likely upset her because you had the cheek to actually stop for a red light when you should have known she had already planned breaking them and you got in the way.:rolleyes:
The fact that you were in a yellow box was of no relevence to her.

OP, there are complete idiots everywhere, but the scenario you described is fortunately still fairly rare.
Unfortunately people intentionally breaking red lights is not rare and a huge percentage of people speed up as they approach orange and even red lights, and often following other cars through on the basis that one got through, why shouldnt they.
This is worthy of a Darwin award and ultimately suicidal.

Your instructor would be correct in reporting this woman, possibly for breach of the peace, and I'm sure the gardai would not take her antics too lightly. As for you, forget about her, it was upsetting, but hopefully you will never encounter someone like that again, just concentrate on getting your test, let the instuctor deal with the idiots.

jw297

fasterkitten wrote: »

She wasn't trying to turn into the junction at the yellow box but was behind you - is that right?

Your instructor should have told her that he/she had taken her reg and would be reporting her antagonistic and threatening behaviour to the Gardai.

Nope, she was driving straight on behind me, and wasn't turning or anything. I could understand if she was annoyed because I was blocking her, but I definitely wasnt.

wil wrote: »

OP, there are complete idiots everywhere, but the scenario you described is fortunately still fairly rare.
This is worthy of a Darwin award and ultimately suicidal.

Must remember the Darwin award if I ever need to give someone a 'compliment' about their behaviour.
Hopefully this was a freak incident and wont happen again!

cormie

Maybe she was just upset to see a learner driver under instruction being allowed to put themselves and others in danger by the instructor? She does have a point. It's not your fault jw297 and it doesn't sound like she had a problem with you by your post, it sounds like she's annoyed with the instructor. Does he not have dual controls that he could have stopped you before you went to the yellow box? He should have.

Instructors have a responsibility to prepare their students for driving on their own, the next generation of drivers. Maybe this woman had a loved one killed at the hands of an inexperienced driver and was just upset to see this.

You hardly ever see school cars with their headlights on too, even at dusk sometimes. They are being paid to teach all aspects of good driving, not just how to control a car.

Don't let this upset you, jw297, it's not you she had the problem with.

dade

can i ask why you stopped? where you stopping for traffic coming toward you and where waiting for the road to clear while you turned right? or had the light gone red and you overshot the lights?

either way she was in the wrong to get out of her car and let rip like that, she should have simply contacted the driving school or Gardai.

luckat

You've had a valuable lesson: there are fools on the roads who can't control their temper. One of the first and best things to learn when you start driving.

Next thing you need to learn is a strategy for dealing with these people. Professional driving schools (I mean driving schools that train professional drivers, who will have to drive for their living, in advanced driving skills) teach people defensive driving.

This means regarding other drivers in the same way that you regard other factors on the road - not getting involved in their emotionalism, standing back from them, and just driving your own car.

The only reason you should worry about what other drivers are doing is to take into account which way they're likely to move, so you can take avoiding action as necessary.

It's a *very* valuable skill - do your best to develop it.

Here's a Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_driving

There are a couple of Irish schools teaching it - when you've got your licence it would be well worth doing a defensive driving course too, if you don't mind springing for it.

Wishbone Ash

cormie wrote: »

She does have a point. It's not your fault jw297 and it doesn't sound like she had a problem with you by your post, it sounds like she's annoyed with the instructor. Does he not have dual controls that he could have stopped you before you went to the yellow box? He should have.

No she doesn't 'have a point'. If she has a problem with anyone else on the road she should report it to the Gardai.

Allowing a portion of a car to enter a yellow box is a relatively minor offence especially for someone learning to drive and as has been said, it would in no way have affected the driver behind.

luckat wrote: »

This means regarding other drivers in the same way that you regard other factors on the road - not getting involved in their emotionalism, standing back from them, and just driving your own car

+1

The best thing to do in a situation like that is to totally 'blank out' the other driver. That's what I do in similar situations either driving or at work. It makes the other person feel a bit stupid after a few seconds as they realise that all the attention is on them and then they sheepishly walk back to their car.

I stopped at an amber light in Drumcondra a few years ago. The driver behind me was obviously expecting me to go through and almost rear-ended me. He went bananas, got out of the car and tried to open my door (locks automatically). He spent the next 20 seconds or so dancing around the road in temper attracting loads of attention on himself while I totally ignored him and nonchalantly played with the stereo. He seemed to be totally unaware of his own driving shortcomings but made a total tool of himself.

I can never understand why drivers allow themselves to engage with aggressors - it only encourages them and gives them credibility.

cormie

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

No she doesn't 'have a point'.

What I meant by saying she has a point, is that she has a reason to be upset with the instructor for not being able to anticipate the yellow box and warning jw297 and not stopping the vehicle himself if possible. I'm not advocating the manner in which she expressed her feelings though

Wishbone Ash

cormie wrote: »

What I meant by saying she has a point, is that she has a reason to be upset

If a simple thing like that upsets her then she shouldn't be driving on a public road. As has been said, it didn't even affect her.

cormie wrote:

and not stopping the vehicle himself if possible

The dual controls (if fitted) are for emergency purposes. A driving instructor certainly wouldn't need to use them because a pupil has encroached into a yellow box.

cormie wrote:

I'm not advocating the manner in which she expressed her feelings though

Of course I know that and wasn't implying that you did.

cormie

Yeah if it upsets her that much maybe she should take a break from the roads for a while, but I'm sure a lot of us make a little "tut" when we see someone stop in a yellow box.

Dual controls are often used to assist in clutch control and braking and not just for emergencies. Well they were when I was learning, unless I was just always causing emergencies with the way I was driving

Stark

cormie wrote: »

Dual controls are often used to assist in clutch control and braking and not just for emergencies. Well they were when I was learning, unless I was just always causing emergencies with the way I was driving

If the instructor is always using the clutch and the brakes for you, how are you ever supposed to learn to drive outside of a dual control car? The OP will know for the next time to stop sooner; no harm was done.

Red Alert

Unfortunately even when you're a qualified driver, these people can unnerve you. Just do what Wishbone Ash says, lock the doors and ignore them. If you get involved with them, what happens when the lights go green? Would you be ready and have checked it's safe to go?

I always have to laugh at road rage, in the city all they are doing is getting to the next jam 5 seconds faster.

Wishbone Ash

cormie wrote: »

I'm sure a lot of us make a little "tut" when we see someone stop in a yellow box

A little private 'tut, tut' is completely different from losing it and getting out of the vehicle to have a go at someone! :eek:

betterdrive.net

cormie wrote: »

Maybe she was just upset to see a learner driver under instruction being allowed to put themselves and others in danger by the instructor? She does have a point. It's not your fault jw297 and it doesn't sound like she had a problem with you by your post, it sounds like she's annoyed with the instructor. Does he not have dual controls that he could have stopped you before you went to the yellow box? He should have.

Instructors have a responsibility to prepare their students for driving on their own, the next generation of drivers. Maybe this woman had a loved one killed at the hands of an inexperienced driver and was just upset to see this.

You hardly ever see school cars with their headlights on too, even at dusk sometimes. They are being paid to teach all aspects of good driving, not just how to control a car.

Don't let this upset you, jw297, it's not you she had the problem with.

Might I add that part of teaching someone to drive is to let them make mistakes. If the mistake is not dangerous then there is no harm done.
We teach people to drive in real time and each mistake is not rehearsed and often spontaneous. Dual controls are a last resort on a lesson and verbal instruction, correction and encouragement are far more valuable.
One very important thing we teach is to allow for other peoples mistakes and this is a good example . But wait i suppose the woman doing the screaming has never made one. I suppose it's easier just to have a go at the instructor.

wil

cormie wrote: »

, but I'm sure a lot of us make a little "tut" when we see someone stop in a yellow box.

Cormie, I think you may be viewing this at 90degrees.:)

The only possible reason for getting annoyed with a driver for entering a yellow box is if they block you.
As I said already and as WA gave an example of, the only possible reason a person behind might get annoyed by the car in front stopping in the yellow box, is if they intended breaking the red light and your car had the cheek to get in the way.
I see this behaviour so often.

Unless the driver stopped in the yellow box at a green light with no traffic, the car driver behind had ZERO reason for any annoyance.
If anything, they saved them from getting killed running a red light.

cormie

People learn from their mistakes no doubt. I've made many mistakes and learned from them myself. Some have been very close calls that I am lucky to have avoided. I wouldn't think letting somebody make mistakes is the best option to take when in control of an instrument such as a car. They'll inevitably make mistakes starting off.

Letting a student drift into a yellow box of a turn into an estate wont be dangerous so to speak, but it could cause a knock on effect of impatience and anger to other drivers and put somebody else at risk because of their heightened emotions. Letting somebody drift into a yellow box at a busy junction could be very dangerous as could letting somebody drift past a stop sign or a red light. They all require the same attention and reaction time.

As you said, watch for other peoples mistakes. Had there been no room for the car to reach the other side of the yellow box and somebody had been intending to turn at the yellow box, they may have assumed the car would stop before the yellow box and proceeded to turn and crashed into them.

I don't agree with the lady getting out and approaching the car and having a go at the instructor. I said I can see the reason she was upset, but she should have stayed put in her car as doing what she did probably shook up both the instructor and the student making the remainder of the lesson more dangerous.

wil

cormie wrote: »

.. I said I can see the reason she was upset, .

Being prevented from running the red lights then trying to turn it in to a yellow box issue?

She must go around in a perpetual state of tormented vexation.:eek:
Poor woman:rolleyes:

cormie

We don't know her reason had anything to do with running red lights. Perhaps she was just concerned about the student and wanted the best for them

sunnyside

cormie wrote: »

Maybe she was just upset to see a learner driver under instruction being allowed to put themselves and others in danger by the instructor?

I'd be shocked if an instructor put a learner or anyone else in danger. I really can't see that happening whatever other complaints we may have about instructors.

dade wrote: »

she should have simply contacted the driving school or Gardai.

Do you really think the Gardai would care that someone in a very clearly marked car belonging to a driving school had made a mistake on the road? They have bigger issues to be dealing with.

Stark wrote: »

If the instructor is always using the clutch and the brakes for you, how are you ever supposed to learn to drive outside of a dual control car? The OP will know for the next time to stop sooner; no harm was done.

+1

betterdrive.net wrote: »

Might I add that part of teaching someone to drive is to let them make mistakes. If the mistake is not dangerous then there is no harm done.
We teach people to drive in real time and each mistake is not rehearsed and often spontaneous. Dual controls are a last resort on a lesson and verbal instruction, correction and encouragement are far more valuable.

+1

cormie wrote: »

I wouldn't think letting somebody make mistakes is the best option to take when in control of an instrument such as a car.

What would you propose instead of allowing the learner to make mistakes? If the instructor fixes all the mistakes before they happen the learner won't learn anything. It would probably lead to accidents by giving the learner a false confidence about how good their driving is. Then the learner would get in their own car alone and make all the mistakes then which would be much worse.

Morlar

jw297 wrote: »

Hi,
The following incident happened during a driving lesson, so hopefully this is in the right forum.
I failed to stop in time and came to a stop with the front wheels of the car in a yellow box.......................... The woman in the car behind me got out of her car, pulled open my instructor's door, and started shouting abuse at him,

I think if this happened during morning or evening rush hour then the woman was right to complain - otherwise no - everyone has to learn somewhere.

Wishbone Ash

Morlar wrote: »

I think if this happened during morning or evening rush hour then the woman was right to complain

Do you seriously believe that a motorist is entitled to leave their vehicle in traffic to have a go at another driver because of a minor infraction which in no way affects them? :rolleyes:

If you see a pedestrian discarding a cigarette end on the footpath, do you stop your vehicle and remonstrate with them?

The country would come to a halt if even some people adopted that attitude and it wouldn't be long before someone is killed.

People make mistakes. It's part and parcel of driving. Anyone who can't accept that, should question whether they should be allowed out on a public road.

cormie

sunnyside wrote: »

I'd be shocked if an instructor put a learner or anyone else in danger. I really can't see that happening whatever other complaints we may have about instructors.

Sorry, I didn't mean that the instructor actually put the learner in danger. The learner did this themselves, but the danger could have been reduced slightly (say if it was a stop sign/red light or the yellow box was at a busy junction) had the instructor assisted in braking.

sunnyside wrote: »

What would you propose instead of allowing the learner to make mistakes? If the instructor fixes all the mistakes before they happen the learner won't learn anything. It would probably lead to accidents by giving the learner a false confidence about how good their driving is. Then the learner would get in their own car alone and make all the mistakes then which would be much worse.

More lessons The instructor should let the student know when they are assisting and why "I had to help you with the brake there, next time brake a bit earlier and more gently". I'd also hope the instructor would be able to tell the student when they feel they are ready to go out alone (with an experienced driver, but no dual controls) and whether they are ready for public road driving, or to get the experienced driver to just drive them to an empty car park and get some more practice in in a safe environment.

As I said, it's inevitable that a learner will make mistakes. In the instance above, the only danger that was caused was by the woman as she probably shook up the instructor and student and also heightened her own emotions which could have a dangerous knock on effect. However, the mistake above could easily be made in a much more dangerous situation (red light etc) and I just hope that before the woman started going crazy, the instructor was telling jw297 to watch out next time

Abi

cormie wrote: »

The instructor should let the student know when they are assisting

Initially yes, but its pointless him saying it repeatedly. At first you are guided, then you have to practice what you've learned. The instructor will not be always in the passenger side prompting the OP.

As I said, it's inevitable that a learner will make mistakes.

That is the point here. And I might add, that this learner driver paid dearly for it. The instructor probably did mention it before crazy arse arrived at the window. OP is obviously shaken up by the experience, all because of an over-reaction on her part. I wont even say I could understand if it was a fully licienced driver who made the mistake - because I dont. She went after a goddamn learning school car. That is that saddest thing I've heard.

the instructor was telling jw297 to watch out next time

Just in case the driving instructor didn't get a word in, Im sure the looper made it clear. If she wanted to be that anal about how the OP should drive, she should have another peak in the rules of the road book. I don't think it condones leaving your vehicle at traffic lights while verbally attacking another driver. She caused an obstruction herself by doing so..

Tragedy

The OP did nothing wrong, the driving instructor did nothing, letting the two front wheels go over a yellow box at a junction is terrifically minor(and no doubt reversable if the woman hadnt pulled up behind them to get out and remonstrate).

Anyone arguing differently needs to shush to be honest

dade

sunnyside wrote: »

Do you really think the Gardai would care that someone in a very clearly marked car belonging to a driving school had made a mistake on the road? They have bigger issues to be dealing with.

agreed but i meant that if she had a problem she should have reported it instead of jumping out of the car like a twat and opening the door of the driving school car.

sunnyside

cormie wrote: »

More lessons

Driving lessons are expensive, most people cannot afford endless lessons. Remember that there are many many drivers on the road who have never had even 1 professional lesson.

cormie

Driving is expensive too. Anybody who's able to afford a car, tax, insurance, fuel and maintenance should be able to budget in learning to drive it correctly. I think were one of the only countries in Europe (the world?) who don't require learner drivers to have a certain amount of lessons before driving.

You can legally pass a theory test with common knowledge and start driving on public roads the next day without having even turned the key on the ignition in your life. All you need is a fully licensed driver with you, tax and insurance. No experience necessary. Lessons are very important as when you start driving is when you're at your most vulnerable, anything that can be done to advance past this stage should be done.

It's plainly obvious when driving in Ireland that many drivers have never had one professional lesson unfortunately. I feel a lot safer driving on a packed 4 lane motorway in the UK with everyone who can, doing the limit or above, than I do driving the M50.

If professional lessons are too expensive, get a well educated, fully licensed friend to give you enough lessons, but you're only putting yourself and everyone else at risk if you venture out on your own without full adequate training.

cormie

Abigayle wrote: »

Initially yes, but its pointless him saying it repeatedly. At first you are guided, then you have to practice what you've learned. The instructor will not be always in the passenger side prompting the OP.

That is the point here. And I might add, that this learner driver paid dearly for it. The instructor probably did mention it before crazy arse arrived at the window. OP is obviously shaken up by the experience, all because of an over-reaction on her part. I wont even say I could understand if it was a fully licienced driver who made the mistake - because I dont. She went after a goddamn learning school car. That is that saddest thing I've heard.

Just in case the driving instructor didn't get a word in, Im sure the looper made it clear. If she wanted to be that anal about how the OP should drive, she should have another peak in the rules of the road book. I don't think it condones leaving your vehicle at traffic lights while verbally attacking another driver. She caused an obstruction herself by doing so..

Hopefully they wont have to keep repeating themselves. There are safe areas to learn. If a learner keeps having trouble with a hill start and only manages to get out of it with the aid of the instructor on the clutch and brake, I wouldn't think it would be advisable for the instructor to think the only way they'll learn is if I don't help them. They'll only end up rolling back into the person behind them :pac:

I think the fact that it was a instructor/learner was why she got out. I don't think she would have done the same if it was a fully licensed driver. Remember, she went to the instructors door, not the students. Her problem was that the instructor "should know better".

She shouldn't have done what she did. I think we all agree on that

Stark

cormie wrote:

Hopefully they wont have to keep repeating themselves. There are safe areas to learn. If a learner keeps having trouble with a hill start and only manages to get out of it with the aid of the instructor on the clutch and brake, I wouldn't think it would be advisable for the instructor to think the only way they'll learn is if I don't help them. They'll only end up rolling back into the person behind them

Be careful you don't fall off that high horse, you could get hurt. You see the OP's mistake and rolling back on a hill and hitting someone as one and the same?

cormie wrote:

Her problem was that the instructor "should know better".

Her problem was that she was a freaking psycho who should have her license revoked for all our sakes.

The style of instruction you're suggesting sounds more like shadowing than actual training. If I want to pay someone money to clutch and brake for me, I'll get a taxi. The dual controls are there for emergencies and helping the student out of awkward situations (like stalling the car in a busy junction), not to take over the job of road positioning from the student.

cormie

I'm not on any high horse. As I've said, I've made plenty of mistakes myself, I even had the instructor reach over to the wheel and steer me out of trouble once :P I don't think at all the OP's mistake was as serious as rolling back, but they are both related to control of the instruments in the car, with the OP's mistake also being related to anticipation.

I'm only suggesting assistance if need be, not to take over completely the task of braking and clutching. Knowingly let a student drift into a yellow box could put the student in trouble (with a garda who's having a reeeeeeeally, and I mean reeeeally bad day) or if it was a stop sign/red light. There's no need to rush into independence