Monitored House Alarm - Eircom Phonewatch V Others

cjmcork

Hi,

I presume that Eircom aren't the only providers of monitored alarm systems - I'm in the Cork area btw - how do they compare with the competition - both on cost and service.

If anyone has the names of any firms in the Cork area that provide the same service, I'd be grateful if they could be given (or PM'd if there's an issue with naming companies in the forum).

Thanks,

CJM.

Finneganjp

Why not have an alarm company install a dialler. Its the same dialler Eircom would use only it contacts you instead of the them thus saving you €25 approx a month for monitoring.
By monitoring it yourself you cut out the middle man.

cjmcork

do they all install those?

KoolKid

Finneganjp wrote: »

Why not have an alarm company install a dialler. Its the same dialler Eircom would use only it contacts you instead of the them thus saving you €25 approx a month for monitoring.
By monitoring it yourself you cut out the middle man.

Before you you go for this option ask your self this.
If I need to press a panic button what good is my mobile ringing in my pocket?
The idea of monitoring is so that the relevant emergency services are alerted when required,
There are plenty of companys that can monitor your alarm so shop around.
Beware of Eircoms little trick of not installing an external bell thus making it more difficult for you to cancel monitoring.

cjmcork

thanks - the other service providers offer this service also don't they - Eircom haven't cornered the market on it, have they?

KoolKid

No they havn't!! Any Licenced installer can set up monitoring.
PM me your location & I will give you a few recommendations

cjmcork

have done so

fishdog

If I need to press a panic button what good is my mobile ringing in my pocket?

Many of these systems ring 4 numbers. The people it rings can have a faster response time than the Gardai (if they live close). The same people can call the Gardai if needed.

Most of the monitored alarms are installed to such a low standard that it is very easy to:

1) Prevent the alarm from contacting the monitoring station before entering the house.
2) Attacking the panel with a hammer before the alarm has had time to look for a dial tone.

For these reasons and sevral others I think monitored alarms a re a scam.

As far as Eircom goes their standard package uses a fke outside bellbox reducing security further.

Finneganjp

koolkid wrote: »

Before you you go for this option ask your self this.
If I need to press a panic button what good is my mobile ringing in my pocket?

A dialler can ring numerous numbers not just your own. So program it with a few numbers. When a panic button is pressed (or any other device for that matter is activated) the message thats sent to the reciever informs them that the Panic button was pressed. They inturn can try and contact you and if not suceessful contact the Gardai.

cjmcork

the gardai must be bloody thrilled with this service - I presume they don't get paid any extra for giving this service to all the alarm installers?

KoolKid

fishdog wrote: »

Many of these systems ring 4 numbers. The people it rings can have a faster response time than the Gardai (if they live close). The same people can call the Gardai if needed.

Most of the monitored alarms are installed to such a low standard

All monitored alarms must be certified to EN50131...Please explan that statement

fishdog wrote: »

1) Prevent the alarm from contacting the monitoring station before entering the house.

And how would you know the customers account number or password?

fishdog wrote: »

2) Attacking the panel with a hammer before the alarm has had time to look for a dial tone.

20 seconds to disable a digi??? dont think so

fishdog wrote: »

For these reasons and sevral others I think monitored alarms a re a scam.

Your poor arguments don't support this theory unfortunatly.
Monitoring is about getting a response. Most people are happy to pay for that service. Its an optional extra & it is not forced on anyone so how is it a scam???

fishdog wrote: »

As far as Eircom goes their standard package uses a fke outside bellbox reducing security further.

Thats true..

KoolKid

Finneganjp wrote: »

A dialler can ring numerous numbers not just your own. So program it with a few numbers. When a panic button is pressed (or any other device for that matter is activated) the message thats sent to the reciever informs them that the Panic button was pressed. They inturn can try and contact you and if not suceessful contact the Gardai.

Gardai respond to genuine alarm calls from certified central stations.
You ringing the local station saying "my mates alarm has gone off" will not get the same response as a verified panic alarm to a central station with direct lines to Dublin castle.

KerranJast

I bought a Wireless GSM security system off Ebay for €120. It came with 4 Wireless PIRs, 2 wireless door switches, 2 keyfobs and a siren. You put any SIM into it and you can program it to dial and/or text several numbers when tripped with customised alarm messages.

KoolKid

Sounds nearly as good as Argos. What standard is it certified to.?

KerranJast

Got to love sarcasm on teh Intertube. Don't have it to hand right now. http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260272553847 is the Ebay item.

KoolKid

You get what you pay for!!

fishdog

koolkid :

All monitored alarms must be certified to EN50131...Please explan that statement

That statement is not correct, some are not. Example: I have seen where members of the PSA have linked out tamper connections at the panel.

For those alarms that are installed to that standard, I have bypassed sevral of them with ease in front of the customer. I think the standard is too low. For example:
1) An alarm installed to that standard does not have to have a GSM module or any real protection of the phone line.

2) An alarm installed to that standard can have the panel installed in a location that is easy for an intruder to find (and then destroy).

3) An alarm installed to that standard does not have to pick up all windows or doors and can be very very minimal (no PIRs) if the installer deems this to be ok.

I could go on....


Originally Posted by fishdog
1) Prevent the alarm from contacting the monitoring station before entering the house.

KoolKid:

And how would you know the customers account number or password?

I would not need those details. I am not going to outline how to bypass an alarm here. I will PM you how to do this as (I am sure you know). Let me just say that I would ensure that the digi did not have what it would need so that it could ring out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fishdog
2) Attacking the panel with a hammer before the alarm has had time to look for a dial tone.

KoolKid:

20 seconds to disable a digi??? dont think so

It will take alot longer than 20 seconds for the digi to contact the monitoring station. In fact according to EN50131 it can not even look for a dail tone until 30 seconds after the alarm is going off. Even then it has to dial each number, more time and transmit the code, more time. How long does it take to destroy a plastic box with a lump hammer that is generally beside the front door???



Quote:
Originally Posted by fishdog
For these reasons and several others I think monitored alarms are a scam.

KoolKid:

Your poor arguments don't support this theory unfortunatly.
Monitoring is about getting a response.

I have replied to each of your points. My arguments stand up and I can prove it. I am not saying all alarms are poorly installed, and easy to bypass but many are.

KoolKid:

Most people are happy to pay for that service. Its an optional extra & it is not forced on anyone so how is it a scam???

Most people think that if a monitored alarm goes off it calls the gardai. You and I know this is not true. It calls the monitoring station and only under certain specific circumstances can they then call the gardai. If a monitored alarm goes off and contacts the monitoring station the station is not allowed to call the gardai unless:

1) They have contacted a keyholder
2) The keyholder can make his/her way to the house
3) The alarm has gone off more than once on two seperate zones within a specific timeframe

The thief would be a long way down the M50 by then!!

All if this information is on a link to a Garda policy document on the Eircom PhoneWatch website BTW.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fishdog
As far as Eircom goes their standard package uses a fake outside bellbox reducing security further.

Koolkid:

Thats true..

Nice to agree on something:)

fishdog

Koolkid, PM sent

KoolKid

fishdog wrote: »

I have seen where members of the PSA have linked out tamper connections at the panel.

If you have evidence of licenced companys falseafying certs you should pass these details onto the PSA & the NSAI

fishdog wrote: »

1) An alarm installed to that standard does not have to have a GSM module or any real protection of the phone line.

In 20 years I have only once seen phonelines disconnected to break into a site, and that was a chemist. High risk sites should have GSM or radio back up

fishdog wrote: »

2) An alarm installed to that standard can have the panel installed in a location that is easy for an intruder to find (and then destroy).

In your average house the panel would always be easy to find.
What location would you suggest

fishdog wrote: »

3) An alarm installed to that standard does not have to pick up all windows or doors and can be very very minimal (no PIRs) if the installer deems this to be ok.

True but the installer must back up his decision with a site survey showing risk assessment

fishdog wrote: »

1) Prevent the alarm from contacting the monitoring station before entering the house.

KoolKid:


I would not need those details. I am not going to outline how to bypass an alarm here. I will PM you how to do this as (I am sure you know). Let me just say that I would ensure that the digi did not have what it would need so that it could ring out.

I think I already covered this above. It is very rare that telecom providers external equipment is attacked to facilitate a brek in

fishdog wrote: »

Originally Posted by fishdog
2) Attacking the panel with a hammer before the alarm has had time to look for a dial tone.

KoolKid:


It will take alot longer than 20 seconds for the digi to contact the monitoring station. In fact according to EN50131 it can not even look for a dail tone until 30 seconds after the alarm is going off. Even then it has to dial each number, more time and transmit the code, more time. How long does it take to destroy a plastic box with a lump hammer that is generally beside the front door???

Where in EN50131 does it state 30 seconds?? I always set to 20 seconds & thats only Alarm activations. I have never once in an inspection got a non-conformance for this. All other reports are instant.
Panel is normally beside the front door???
Thats the Keypad that wont prevent the dialler reporting

fishdog wrote: »

Most people think that if a monitored alarm goes off it calls the gardai. You and I know this is not true. It calls the monitoring station and only under certain specific circumstances can they then call the gardai. If a monitored alarm goes off and contacts the monitoring station the station is not allowed to call the gardai unless:

1) They have contacted a keyholder
2) The keyholder can make his/her way to the house
3) The alarm has gone off more than once on two seperate zones within a specific timeframe

Most people dont think the Guards are monitoring their alarm.
They write a cheque every year to the security company or the monitoring station, they dont sent the cheque to the Guards.
They ring the monitoring station when they need to cancel a false alarm they dont dial 999
They ring the monitoring station if they want to change keyholder details , they dont call the local police station.

The Guards will respond to a verified alarm
The Guards will respond to PA with great urgency


BTW I have no problem arguing any points with you here but please do not PM me again trying to egg me on.
I am just stating facts not looking for a row.

fishdog

If you have evidence of licenced companys falseafying certs you should pass these details onto the PSA & the NSAI

The customer was not interested and did not understand what a tamper was when I tried to explain. I went through the same with RECI. They will do nothing unless the customer complains in writing, and the customer does not understand the technical end.

In 20 years I have only once seen phonelines disconnected to break into a site, and that was a chemist. High risk sites should have GSM or radio back up

So you have seen it then?? Perhaps others have seen it more. Do you think is is hard to do in general?? Honestly?? I have seen it before. When the gardai were talking to us about neighbourhood watch told me they had seen it alot.

I think all sites should have GSM back up. Why not?? It is not that expensive. They are about €250 from Borsatec.

In your average house the panel would always be easy to find.
What location would you suggest

I know that in "the average house" a panel can always be found eventually. It only has to remain hidden for long enough to ensure it rings out, then its most inportant job is done. I would suggest in the attic. Even if the intruder somehow knows it is there it will have contacted the outside world for help before it is located. We electricians have spent so much time in attics another hour or so makes little difference

I have even installed them in safes in the past! You would be surprised how many houses have safes now. Even a large €200 safe will slow down an intruder alot.

True but the installer must back up his decision with a site survey showing risk assessment

I know, but I have seen entire houses covered with PIRs only etc. You seemed to agree with me that no working bellbox reduced security, yet this is somehow justified. It can be easy to convince many customers that know little about alarms of all sorts of things. Alot of it works on trust. I am sure you have seen rules broken too. Any alarm I have done the customer has gone with whatever I have suggested.

I think I already covered this above. It is very rare that telecom providers external equipment is attacked to facilitate a brek in

You did and you are correct. This is where I think the EN50131 standard falls down. Why not include this in the standard?? I have seen people charged €3000 for a rather basic wireless alarm in not that big a house with no radio link, GSM module or working bellbox. At that price she should have had a GSM!

Where in EN50131 does it state 30 seconds?? I always set to 20 seconds & thats only Alarm activations

I must admit you may be correct with 20 seconds. I always set mine to zero because I do not do anything in EN50131 that I feel reduces response time. However my point still remains, the monitoring station will not be aware within 20 seconds of the alarm sounding for alarm activations. How about replying to this from my last post:

Even then it has to dial each number, more time and transmit the code, more time. How long does it take to destroy a plastic box with a lump hammer that is generally beside the front door???

Panel is normally beside the front door???

Yes, in most prewired houseing estates in the country the alarm cables are wired to a point beside the distribution board at the front door. This is often visable from the window at the front door too.

Most people dont think the Guards are monitoring their alarm.

I worded that badly. You are correct people in general know the gardai do not monitor their alarm. I should have said that most people think that if a monitored alarm goes off the Gardai are called by the monitoring station straight away. This is not the case.

The Guards will respond to PA with great urgency

This is true however, the Gardai will also respond with great urgency if someone rings them and tells them that a panic alarm has gone off. I have seen this.

The Guards will respond to a verified alarm

Yes, but as you know a verified alarm takes a long time!

I have installed many alarm systems that were responded to by the gardai without the alarm being verified. This would have taken alot longer. In one case that caused quite a reaction, it resulted in an armed gardai responding because the house in question was "high risk" and the person that the alarm contacted explained this to the gardai when he rang them. The response could not have been quicker.

please do not PM me again trying to egg me on.

I only PMed you to answer a question you asked earlier when I said I could

Prevent the alarm from contacting the monitoring station before entering the house.

I did not want to tell the world how easy it is to get around one of the most popular alarms in the country (this can upset people who bought that EN certified alarm system). No offence intended, I did not mean to "egg you on" sorry.

I am just stating facts not looking for a row.

I respect that. Me too

Do you agree that in most cases what I suggested would work??

KoolKid

We are kinda drifting off here a bit. Suffice to say monitoring is an optional extra on alarms. Some people will see the befefit others will not. If some cases it may be a requirement of your insurance. If its not something you are forced to have or its not over priced I dont see how it cam be a scam. Also I doubt the PSA or the NSAI (or any other certification bodies) would be involved in it if it were a scam

fishdog

We are kinda drifting off here a bit.

I think you are right!!:D

You put up a good fight!!

Stoner

ok good to see we are back on track.

so what we are saying is ????

An Eircom Standard Monitoring option is available from all alarm suppliers. The monitoring is provided by large firms who any small or large company can set you up with, there is a yearly fee for this, as with Eircom, so people can be assured that they can get like for like from a monitoring point of view and go and price check away to get the best value for them.

You can get a less expensive monitoting option where text messages are used, a person in a monitoring station will hit the list of numbers until they get a response, they will send for the police if they want. Not all alarms indicate a break in and people do want to know that the alarm has been turned on, neighbours etc.

It's up to a person to decide if having a human at the end of the phone 24/7 is better then having four people sent text message. I guess it comes down to the quality of person you have being called.

Pressing the panic button gets a fast response from the police, so if you are in your house and the alarm is going off and you think someone is in your house, press the panic button.

You can get cheap alarms for €150. You can put them in yourself. This forum is for DIY people, so if someone wants to put in a DIY Alarm from Argos or Woodies well so be it.

They work, are easy to install, but they are not as good as a pro job (how could they be) all we can do is highlight the difference. People may only have €150 to spare and if insight into that product range is available here we should provide it IMO. Within the explaination the differences will become obvious anyway.

DIY alarms will not give you a discount on your insurance, an alarm installed by a certified company is required

KoolKid

A pretty good summing up Stoner. Monitoring is provided by security companys reselling on the service for the licenced monitoring stations. Only companys licenced by the PSA can provide this service. A text or voice dialler can not be sent to the Guards or the emergency services. My personal view is I pay for monitoring purly for that one time when me or my family may need to press that panic button. That alone is worth the money.

cjmcork

right - have learned a lot about alarms lately..........I have a question, if I don't get a monitored system via a landline, but go for the dialler instead, so I still need a landline????

Jnealon

For a standard dialler you will need a phone line unless you have broadband. Otherwise you will need a GSM unit

bobsmith

I've tried the eircom phonewatch wirefree system and I am quite disappointed with the package. While the phonewatch package is potentially good, mine has given nothing but problems: faulty equipment, many false alarms and very long delays for service/repair visits.

I am tied in to eircom too closely for my liking and would like advice on getting a good replacement wirefree system that offers the same spec or higher than the current phonewatch system.

I would like a system that is not "locked in" i.e. that would allow me flexibility to pick my service engineer and monitoring company.

Thanks. Bob.

KoolKid

PM me your details if you are in or around Dublin
We can set up monitoring & service contract on a monthly basis

Columba Rad

@koolkid

I run a small business here in Tallaght, and in the past 14 months I've been broken into a total of 3 times, my office is in a very bad area and security in non existing. So for these reasons I've decided to move premises to a hopefully safer area. I have an EircomPhoneWatch system and would like to move it to the new premises, I've been quoted €90 to remove the alarm & €320 to reinstall it in the new premises, plus my monitoring service is due for renewal on the 25th at either €363.92 per year or €514.56 per year for their Plus+ service. I'm putting alot of money into this new premises, so I'm looking to save as much money as possible , so if you can help with this I'd really appreciate it.

The alarm system was installed a year ago, but I've had 1 break-in since the install in April.

KoolKid

What type of Eircom system have you.?
Wired or wireless?

Columba Rad

It's wireless, looks the same as this one. Been talking to a few security companies today, and got the impression I'll have to get a new alarm installed, as they said there would be a lock on the Eircom one.

I've sent off an email today to 4/5 security companies in the Tallaght area for quotes.