Trade in assessment, may be of some help for some people:

Cyrus

Sorry but i think you are completely wrong, the last three cars i have sold privately (all within the last 18-20 months) i have briefly looked into trading them in.

one was a e46 bmw 323ci was offered €13k trade in and i sold it for €17k, one was an e39 530i sport, offered €135.k trade, sold for €17k and one was a mkiv golf gti, offered €12k and sold for €14,750.

now i never got too far with the garages in qn as i was just exploring what i might get but they were offering now discount on the car i was looking at and a derisory (in my opinion and subsequently proved right when i sold privately) offer for my own. so instead i got a good price and cash to knock 10-12% off my next car

all cars were meticulously maintained and in excellent order with very high specs and low mileage, didnt make one bit of difference to the garages in question, i had no problem selling the cars to private buyers looking for good examples, all sold to the first viewer and all within 3 weeks of being put up for sale.

Zube

gabgab wrote: »

Without sounding patronising, this attitude of I am not getting what I want does not wash.

I think jonnygee's point is perfectly reasonable:

when i am ready to change my car then if my dealer wants to offer me a silly price for my trade in which he wanted to do in july then i simply wont be changing my car for a shiny new one.

If the second hand market is a bloodbath and trade in values are way down, I think many people will stick with what they are driving for an extra year, and wait for things to settle.

gabgab

Cyrus wrote: »

Sorry but i think you are completely wrong, the last three cars i have sold privately (all within the last 18-20 months) i have briefly looked into trading them in.

one was a e46 bmw 323ci was offered €13k trade in and i sold it for €17k, one was an e39 530i sport, offered €135.k trade, sold for €17k and one was a mkiv golf gti, offered €12k and sold for €14,750.

now i never got too far with the garages in qn as i was just exploring what i might get but they were offering now discount on the car i was looking at and a derisory (in my opinion and subsequently proved right when i sold privately) offer for my own. so instead i got a good price and cash to knock 10-12% off my next car

all cars were meticulously maintained and in excellent order with very high specs and low mileage, didnt make one bit of difference to the garages in question, i had no problem selling the cars to private buyers looking for good examples, all sold to the first viewer and all within 3 weeks of being put up for sale.

Fair play to you, I am delighted that you are getting rewarded for the work and for maintaining your cars in such a good way. The figures you are quoting as trade in figures and what you got back sound impressive. I do have to ask though, how many trade in figures did you get?

Also, it needs to be pointed out that a garage has different costs to you selling from outside your house, and also bear in mind that when people are buying privately, they feel less inclined to push as hard on discount as they do when dealing with a big garage.

L-M

Cyrus wrote: »

one was a e46 bmw 323ci was offered €13k trade in and i sold it for €17k, one was an e39 530i sport, offered €135.k trade, sold for €17k and one was a mkiv golf gti, offered €12k and sold for €14,750.

I wouldn't be too happy trading in any of those cars except the Gti. Those petrol Bmw's could be sitting on the forecourt for a long time as you can buy the more economical diesel versions (or smaller engined petrol version ie. the 520 or the 318 etc.). I would want to have some margin on them in case they were sitting there. As for the money you made on the Golf, factor in all the points and costs mentioned above and your not left with much of a margin.

gabgab

Zube wrote: »

I think jonnygee's point is perfectly reasonable:If the second hand market is a bloodbath and trade in values are way down, I think many people will stick with what they are driving for an extra year, and wait for things to settle.

It is a reasonable point, what I am asking is how they came about with the price that they believe is reasonable thats all,

If there is a sound basis for it, and a quantifiable way of coming about the price with consideration for the costs invloved from a businesses point of view, then both JohnnyGee and you are both right

Cyrus

gabgab wrote: »

Fair play to you, I am delighted that you are getting rewarded for the work and for maintaining your cars in such a good way. The figures you are quoting as trade in figures and what you got back sound impressive. I do have to ask though, how many trade in figures did you get?

Also, it needs to be pointed out that a garage has different costs to you selling from outside your house, and also bear in mind that when people are buying privately, they feel less inclined to push as hard on discount as they do when dealing with a big garage.

Thank you, i make a big effort to take care of my cars, in each case it was only one trade in offer but i was so annoyed i didnt bother especially as my cars sold so quickly privately.

i understand the costs that a garage incurs, but my feeling was that the above average condition and spec of my cars counted for nought, that said i was better of selling privately so it was win all round

Cyrus

Limerick-man wrote: »

I wouldn't be too happy trading in any of those cars except the Gti. Those petrol Bmw's could be sitting on the forecourt for a long time as you can buy the more economical diesel versions (or smaller engined petrol version ie. the 520 or the 318 etc.). I would want to have some margin on them in case they were sitting there. As for the money you made on the Golf, factor in all the points and costs mentioned above and your not left with much of a margin.

typical dealer attitude tho isnt it, yet i was able to sell the cars in question in 2 and 3 weeks respectively

again i take your point on the dealers costs, so i have come to the conclusion that trading in isnt for me, i dont have those costs so its extra money in my pocket when i come to sell and plus i get a straight deal discount when i buy

L-M

Cyrus wrote: »

typical dealer attitude tho isnt it, yet i was able to sell the cars in question in 2 and 3 weeks respectively

again i take your point on the dealers costs, so i have come to the conclusion that trading in isnt for me, i dont have those costs so its extra money in my pocket when i come to sell and plus i get a straight deal discount when i buy

That is probably the only sensible post i have heard on this thread fro someone who didn't get the trade in price they wanted. And in the end, on all cars incl. straight deal discount, you were rewarded for taking the risk yourself and saved maybe €10K +

Zube

gabgab wrote: »

If thier is s sound basis for it, with consideration for the costs invloved from a businesses point of view, then both JohnnyGee and you are both right

Well, no, my car is worth a certain amount to me. It doesn't have to be based on a business case, I can pull that figure out of my @rse, because it's my car. You can't tell me that value is wrong, and you can't force me to sell it at a lower price.

Mind you, I'm not going to get shirty if a dealer refuses to offer me that, or refuses to take the old POS off my hands at any price. Some people seem to feel personally insulted if a dealer's value for their car is less than they feel it's worth, which is a bit silly.

gabgab

If it is only one trade in figure then its not a fair rxample, not taking away from your cars or what you got back for them privately, but it does need to be shown that it is not that fair a example.

Like any business certain places have a preference for certain cars and products, a premium used car garage specialising in clean high end BMW etc,

Michelin star restaurants do not like childrens parties, will they do one, yes maybe, will they do it aswell as someone that pecialises in it? Yes, will the kids have as much fun? Probably not,

Cyrus

gabgab wrote: »

If it is only one trade in figure then its not a fair rxample, not taking away from your cars or what you got back for them privately, but it does need to be shown that it is not that fair a example.

Like any business certain places have a preference for certain cars and products, a premium used car garage specialising in clean high end BMW etc,

Michelin star restaurants do not like childrens parties, will they do one, yes maybe, will they do it aswell as someone that pecialises in it? Yes, will the kids have as much fun? Probably not,

maybe not fair becuase in the end the cars sold quickly privately and i didnt need to do the rounds, that said it was three different cars, three different (large franchised) garages and the same result every time

-Chris-

Zube wrote: »

Well, no, my car is worth a certain amount to me. It doesn't have to be based on a business case, I can pull that figure out of my @rse, because it's my car. You can't tell me that value is wrong, and you can't force me to sell it at a lower price.

I think this is what it really comes down to, and it agrees with Cyrus's experience too - there's a difference between what a car's worth and what it's worth to the person who's using it.

I've had plenty of people coming in who've been disappointed in their trade-in values over the last few months. Maybe some thought I was ripping them off, hopefully most understood that it was just due to a change in the market.
I'd never argue with someone over the value of their car, but would try and justify our position in relation to it.

Simple factors like:
The fact that their car is worth less than they thought or hoped may push the new car they're looking at out of their budget.
The fact that they owe more money on the car than it's worth (as a trade-in) may put them off changing.
The fact that they'd be happier holding onto the car rather than trading in, that the car is worth more to them than I can allow.
The fact that they believe they can sell the car privately themselves on better terms and are willing to take on the work.


All these factors mean that, although I can prove to someone that the trade-in value we're offering is fair and their price expectation is too high, winning that argument often does little more than alienate the customer.

If the customer does their research and comes to the conclusion that my pricing is fair (in the current market) and they're happy to proceed based on that, then we've got a deal.
Otherwise there's no point in me being petty and proving them wrong, and equally little point in them getting shirty and defensive and feeling like I'm trying to offend them with a below-par offer.

Cyrus, I appreciate your attitude and I wish more customers had it!

omerin

... and the moral of this thread is - buy privately!

i'm looking for a car at the moment and i have called to a number of dealers looking for a 07 car. many of the cars on the forecourt had scratches and dents and you can bet your bottom dollar that if theses flaws weren't pointed out to the salesman they would be left there after the sale.
the op posted a list of costs and potential profit on a trade in, but anybody trading in a car knows they will not get anywhere near the discount if it was a straight sale, point is any lost profit on the op list on selling the traded in car is made up by the salesman keeping the discount he would have given on a straight sale.
i am a cash purchaser and having looked at a car at a dealer recently was told that it costs an average of 850 euro to turn around traded cars for re-sale. i was looking at a 07 car, i nearly wet myself, needless to say i wouldn't be going back

Keith C

Cyrus wrote: »

dont have those costs so its extra money in my pocket when i come to sell and plus i get a straight deal discount when i buy

Just to go slightly off topic, to the dealers out there, given the current market, what percentage of discount would you give off, for cash buyer, a new car circa €30k?
I set up a thread but didnt get many replies.
Judging by this thread its fair to say dealers pfrefer to see cash buyers rather then another trade in taking up space on forecourts.

gabgab

omerin wrote: »

... and the moral of this thread is - buy privately!

i'm looking for a car at the moment and i have called to a number of dealers looking for a 07 car. many of the cars on the forecourt had scratches and dents and you can bet your bottom dollar that if theses flaws weren't pointed out to the salesman they would be left there after the sale.
the op posted a list of costs and potential profit on a trade in, but anybody trading in a car knows they will not get anywhere near the discount if it was a straight sale, point is any lost profit on the op list on selling the traded in car is made up by the salesman keeping the discount he would have given on a straight sale.
i am a cash purchaser and having looked at a car at a dealer recently was told that it costs an average of 850 euro to turn around traded cars for re-sale. i was looking at a 07 car, i nearly wet myself, needless to say i wouldn't be going back

No Warranty.

Which part of the €850 trade in figure almost made you wet yourself?

mickdw

mickdw wrote: »

Example:

I buy a new car. 55000 retail.
I get offered 13000 trade in.
Thats 42000 less bargaining to change.

I sell my car for 15000 private
and then im offered a straight sale price of less than 52,000 plus bargaining
Thats 37000 to change. Thats five grand instantly for the garage if i trade in.
Servicing, reconditioning & warranty costs on my trade in will be covered by the even higher resale cost the garage will get for my car compared to a private sale.
Not to forget the profits they would have on the straight sale price also.

AudiChris wrote: »

If you're offered 13,000 for a trade-in, it's probably worth 11,000 to the trade. The other 2k is made up of overallowance (or discount).
That won't hit a forecourt for €15k, I'd be surprised if you could sell it for that.

But if you do, the dealer will give you the €2k discount off the new car, so you're up by the difference between the trade value and what you sell the car for privately.

Profit is your reward for taking risk.

Here's where the dealer's taking costs that you aren't:
You've sold your car from your driveway (you haven't had to pay for a forecourt or portacabin or public insurance)
You've cleaned the car and NCT'd it yourself and put in the half-tank of fuel (you haven't had to pay valeters or mechanics)
You haven't offered test-drives - covered by your insurance
You haven't offered a warranty.
etc. etc.

Here's where you're taking the risk:
Stocking time

If you can't sell your car in time at the price you want, you'll have to pay two car loans or you'll have to "price it to sell". Possibly you'll have to defer/cancel your new car order because you haven't sold your car.
Part of a dealer's business is stocking and selling cars, not the same for private sellers.
If you're selling a car that's become less desirable since you ordered your new car (for example, the arse has fallen out of the Touareg market very recently), you may have to drop your price considerably to move it.


And no one will argue that the more time you spend prep'ing your car for sale the more likely you'll get a good price on your car, so by selling the car privately and doing all the work and taking all the risk, of course you're entitled to the profit instead of the dealer.

If you're looking to buy a car from me and you decide to sell your car privately and do a straight deal, I wouldn't begrudge you the reduced cost-to-change because you're putting in the effort and taking the risk and therefore deserve the reward.
If you're trading in to us and we're taking the risks and investing in your trade-in to make it forecourt-worthy, I hope you'd be equally magnanimous...

My figures above are not guesses. I actually did the above transactions exactly as detailed.
I sold a 2000 audi TT 1.8T Quattro with 107000 miles for 15000 euro after veing offered 13000 at audi dealer. (He didnt want the car I think)
Then on a straight deal I bought new A5 for 3000 less than retail so serious profit there.

-Chris-

mickdw wrote: »

My figures above are not guesses. I actually did the above transactions exactly as detailed.
I sold a 2000 audi TT 1.8T Quattro with 107000 miles for 15000 euro after veing offered 13000 at audi dealer. (He didnt want the car I think)
Then on a straight deal I bought new A5 for 3000 less than retail so serious profit there.

Dealer wasn't comfortable taking your trade in for some reason, you were comfortable selling it, you got good money for it. Fair play.

In my experience €3,000 is above average discount for an A5, you did well there and must be a shrewd negotiator.

You got an extra €1,000 off your car by negotiating well. You got more money for your trade in by taking the risk of selling the car privately. You got reward for taking risk and for being good at negotiating. I'm not criticising it Mick, I admire it.

I don't think your experience can be repeated by everyone but I do believe it happens.
I don't know the dealer's circumstances that led them to offer you €13,000 for your trade-in, but I'd presume there was a logic (or mistake) behind it - dealers aren't in the business of throwing away deals.



Edit/disclaimer (yes, another one...): Any discount or pricing figures I'm quoting here are based solely on my experience and not a result of discussions with other dealers or salespeople.

gabgab

I would echo Audi Chris points,

Fair play to you. However it must be said a Audi TT with that mileage is not a retail car for a main dealer, therefore the salesman is at the mercy of whatever price he can get from a trader. Traders can buy anything from 5 to 100 cars per week, as a result they are very aware of market prices, and tend to know, or have a colleague that knows the sort of things that go wrong with a particular car. They work on very small margins as they are selling trade to trade;

A trader knows the potential pitfalls of:
A performance car,
With costly parts, and based on averages for Audi TT's of its age
For its age, based on averages, high mileage

Then it is all the other things that someone in the trade will look for and at,
Crashed or damaged and repaired? If so how good was the repair
Service History, has it been maintained to intervals, by a reputable garage
Is there work that needs to be done?

The reason I point this out is that what a person with knowledge and experience (a trader doing this day in day out) will pay for a car versus somebody possibly without as much experience (I dont know who bought the car or what kind of experience or inspection they gave it) will pay may be vastly different,

mickdw

AudiChris wrote: »

Dealer wasn't comfortable taking your trade in for some reason, you were comfortable selling it, you got good money for it. Fair play.

In my experience €3,000 is above average discount for an A5, you did well there and must be a shrewd negotiator.

You got an extra €1,000 off your car by negotiating well. You got more money for your trade in by taking the risk of selling the car privately. You got reward for taking risk and for being good at negotiating. I'm not criticising it Mick, I admire it.

I don't think your experience can be repeated by everyone but I do believe it happens.
I don't know the dealer's circumstances that led them to offer you €13,000 for your trade-in, but I'd presume there was a logic (or mistake) behind it - dealers aren't in the business of throwing away deals.



Edit/disclaimer (yes, another one...): Any discount or pricing figures I'm quoting here are based solely on my experience and not a result of discussions with other dealers or salespeople.

A5 was bought before july and as we know they dropped 5k after july. Maybe that explains the discount. Audi took a 4.5k hit on the price themselves as vrt only dropped 500 euro so I guess it suited them to sell them even at much bigger discount at that stage. So I was still robbed. but just imagine if I had traded in and paid something close to retail and then had to suffer the 5k devaluation of the car, I would be rather annoyed!

-Chris-

mickdw wrote: »

A5 was bought before july and as we know they dropped 5k after july. Maybe that explains the discount. Audi took a 4.5k hit on the price themselves as vrt only dropped 500 euro so I guess it suited them to sell them even at much bigger discount at that stage. So I was still robbed. but just imagine if I had traded in and paid something close to retail and then had to suffer the 5k devaluation of the car, I would be rather annoyed!

Nobody outside MDL knew about the new pricing structure until it was released officially (I posted it here same day). I don't believe they allowed you extra discount because of knowledge of the price drop. You would have got that on your own merits.

jonnygee

gabgab wrote: »

Can I ask you though how you know it is a silly price?

Do you know the market?
Do you know what you're car is going to actually fetch in terms of a straight sale on a forecourt, including the charges, costs, and profit margin included in that deal?
Please post up your car details and what you believe is a realistic price for it?

Without sounding patronising, this attitude of I am not getting what I want does not wash. The factors you have considered, the variables that need to be taken into account and the costs involved are rarely if ever considered by the customer that point blank believes their car is worth more,

If the price previously was not in line with your expectations, how much have you reduced your figure by for the next price?

I would be very interested to hear the answers to these questions,

Gab

Sorry guys, took the wife to London for a few days with the money I didnt spend on a car in July, In reply on I April 2008 I could have changed my 1.6 petrol focus zetec for 7,500 euro. In July this year dealer was asking 13,500 euro to change for same again, he cant get diesel models until October so it was like for like. Now even if I dont know the market then my limited intelligence tells me that there is something not quite right here, it seems that I must lose so that the garage can win. No way hosay. Nct,d my car today until 01/02/2011 and will drive it until market returns to realistic levels. Have to work for a full week now, cant reply, sorry.

-Chris-

jonnygee wrote: »

Sorry guys, took the wife to London for a few days with the money I didnt spend on a car in July, In reply on I April 2008 I could have changed my 1.6 petrol focus zetec for 7,500 euro. In July this year dealer was asking 13,500 euro to change for same again, he cant get diesel models until October so it was like for like. Now even if I dont know the market then my limited intelligence tells me that there is something not quite right here, it seems that I must lose so that the garage can win. No way hosay. Nct,d my car today until 01/02/2011 and will drive it until market returns to realistic levels. Have to work for a full week now, cant reply, sorry.

That contradicts itself Jonny. You accept the market has changed and are willing to wait until it recovers, but you also think the dealer is winning by you losing (by you not buying, the dealer's losing. That's the reality). The dealer didn't change your trade-in value, the market changed the amount the dealer's willing to offer.

It's like buying a new house last year and then going and suing the developer because it's not worth what you paid for it.
True, the developers have been making inordinate amounts of profit in recent years, but you bought the house for what you thought it was worth. If that worth changes due to general economic circumstances, then there's noone specific to blame, that's just the way the market's gone!


I realise that by mentioning developers in a thread about dealers will probably prompt a couple of "stealers" and "developers were ripping us off, just like those damn dealers" comments.
I don't want to drag the thread OT...

gabgab

jonnygee wrote: »

Sorry guys, took the wife to London for a few days with the money I didnt spend on a car in July, In reply on I April 2008 I could have changed my 1.6 petrol focus zetec for 7,500 euro. In July this year dealer was asking 13,500 euro to change for same again, he cant get diesel models until October so it was like for like. Now even if I dont know the market then my limited intelligence tells me that there is something not quite right here, it seems that I must lose so that the garage can win. No way hosay. Nct,d my car today until 01/02/2011 and will drive it until market returns to realistic levels. Have to work for a full week now, cant reply, sorry.

Again what has changed since the valuation the dealer gave you.

A 1.6 Liter Focus zetec, is not a description of a car. Look at the changes to your car since then,

Damaged?
Mileage increase since appraisal?
Is it due a service?
Does it need tires?
Have 400 hire drive Ford Focus's returned since then and as a result washed out the market in accordance to supply and demand rules?
On top of all the other external factors, including slowdown in the economy etc.

This business is not as simple, as black and white as people believe it is. There are many variables in establishing the value of a car, and as such these need to be looked at objectively and realistically,

Darragh29

jonnygee wrote: »

Sorry guys, took the wife to London for a few days with the money I didnt spend on a car in July, In reply on I April 2008 I could have changed my 1.6 petrol focus zetec for 7,500 euro. In July this year dealer was asking 13,500 euro to change for same again, he cant get diesel models until October so it was like for like. Now even if I dont know the market then my limited intelligence tells me that there is something not quite right here, it seems that I must lose so that the garage can win. No way hosay. Nct,d my car today until 01/02/2011 and will drive it until market returns to realistic levels. Have to work for a full week now, cant reply, sorry.

+1. The market is thankfully wider than the narrow construction placed upon the meaning of the word "market" on this particular thread. The Main Dealerships until recently have relied on buyers coming to only one conclusion, which is that for folks who want to buy a new car, they have to engage with the dealer on his or her terms only. Now we are seeing fresh thinking as we can see in the above thread and people are seeing that there is clear value in keeping their car for longer and not being scared of events like an NCT, which in all reality should not be a major problem for a car going for its first NCT. As Johnny Gee has pointed out, right now, based on him doing business with a dealer, Johhny has to lose for the dealer to win. If Johnny decides not to do business with the dealer, Johnny wins and the dealer loses. What we are seeing right now is the majority of dealerships being in denial as to this situation...

L-M

The last time i checked there were 760 odd 06 Ford Focus for sale in Ireland. Maybe more, there is no supply and demand with these, if someone is buying one and your price isn't right, he has 759 other focus that he can look at before he has to buy yours.

Especially in the case of the Focus, it is more so than anywhere else a buyers market. Price has to be right or people will just go somewhere else.

bazz26

I've been reading this thread with great interest, both customers and dealers put up a good argument here from both sides. It really does open up your eyes to alot from both sides.

However I think there needs to be alot more transperancy from the motor industry as to how things are done in Ireland, a good example being this thread on how a garage evaluates a trade in, to how a garage operates as a business.

A prime example I can think of is the little brown book that dealers use as a guide to evaluate a trade in. This book is only available to folks within the motor trade and not the general public unlike the UK where Glass publish a similar guide book every month or so giving guide prices on all used models on the market.

I agree that as a owner of a car we all like to think our pride and joy is worth more despite there being numerous uncontrolable external factors on the open market which affect the valuation of a car.

At least if there was some sort of reference for owners to consult before we even walk into the showroom then maybe expectations would not be so unrealistic.

I for one am tired of seeing sales people sitting behind a desk flicking through a little book for the valuation of my car, it gives me the impression that he is just pulling any figure from it. If I had access to the same book prior to going into the garage at least that way I would have a realistic figure in my head as to what my car is worth.

Imo I think something like this would help both Joe Public and the motor trade.

L-M

bazz26 wrote: »

A prime example I can think of is the little brown book that dealers use as a guide to evaluate a trade in. This book is only available to folks within the motor trade and not the general public unlike the UK where Glass publish a similar guide book every month or so giving guide prices on all used models on the market.

I wouldn't even go near that book, or the book guide(on the computer system). Alot of the time it can be very far out. Market can change very easily and quickly.

gabgab

@ Darragh 29: Consumer also would like to purchase a new car but cant

@ Bazz 29 : I would happily put a thread together indicating as many factors that need to be viewed before suggesting a price for a car

This could then be stickied and locked maybe,

I see countless threads up here about dealers this, second hand prices etc,

All can be answered in a very short space of time and a figure come about, but what has to be gotten across is these simple facts:

ANY product or service is worth what it achieves at the very last part of a sale. Not the suggested or asking price

Cars cost money to turn around and have in decent condition that people would be encouraged to purchase after seeing them and driving them

Business, is there to make a fair profit based on the risk and overheads

L-M

I don't know if it would be a good idea, alot of people have different ways of putting a value on a trade in, also i'm sure alot of boardsies would be mouthing and disagreeing with bits said on it. If ye want to try it i'll contribute but whether it'll work is another story.

bazz26

If the book was published once a month it would be accurate enough, granted the market at the moment is fairly volatile but surely there is not a large gulf between prices last month and prices this month?

Again from a Joe Public point of view if I was trading my car in the morning how do I know I am getting the going rate for it if I have no point of reference from the motor industry other than take the word of the garage making the offer?

At the end of the day a garage is in the business of making money so I as a customer would assume they like any business would try to maximise the profit from the deal. Equally the consumer is in the business of getting the best deal possible.

And I am not having a go at dealers here just trying to contribute to the debate.

gabgab

Limerick-man wrote: »

I don't know if it would be a good idea, alot of people have different ways of putting a value on a trade in, also i'm sure alot of boardsies would be mouthing and disagreeing with bits said on it. If ye want to try it i'll contribute but whether it'll work is another story.

Its a broad description of how it works, not a finite answer. If people aer aware of the costs then its not quiete so hard to accept,

Like most things in life, if you have no understanding of it then it is frustrating and you tend to believe you are being taken for a mug especially with something as emotionally involving as their car and a large amount of their money

gabgab

@ Bazz26

To be fair how do you know that your car is a "going rate car"

If you owned it from new and it has standard specification, with a desirable registration, and you know it has never been crashed or painted then you can make that assessment yourself in a fairly educated approach as the variables are limited,

If this is not the case then it is not a fair assessment, for all the reasons already outlined in this thread

At the end of the day a garage is in the business of making money so I as a customer would assume they like any business would try to maximise the profit from the deal

Darragh29

bazz26 wrote: »

If I had access to the same book prior to going into the garage at least that way I would have a realistic figure in my head as to what my car is worth.

Imo I think something like this would help both Joe Public and the motor trade.

Well to a large degree, you have access to what trade in price you will get. For example, instead of allowing a dealer to say to you, "oh, well for starters it needs a service and 4 tyres, and this that and the other", get this done yourself and then you will likely get the maximum book value for your car.

bazz26

gabgab wrote: »

Its a broad description of how it works, not a finite answer. If people aer aware of the costs then its not quiete so hard to accept,

Like most things in life, if you have no understanding of it then it is frustrating and you tend to believe you are being taken for a mug especially with something as emotionally involving as their car and a large amount of their money

Exactly, if something as like a guide book to valuations was available to the public on a regular basis by the motor industry then I think it would reduce the amount of unrealistic valuations owners put on their cars, hence customers would not become insulted when the valuation doesn't match the unrealistic figure in their head.

As it stands customers are on the outside looking in and dealers are on the inside looking out.

gabgab

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well to a large degree, you have access to what trade in price you will get. For example, instead of allowing a dealer to say to you, "oh, well for starters it needs a service and 4 tyres, and this that and the other", get this done yourself and then you will likely get the maximum book value for your car.

@ Darragh 29

People just do not do this, they do not spend money on maintenance as a rule in Ireland. Also bear in mind Darragh that figure you are working out in your head, has to allow for:

A profit for the garage
A discount that customers push for all the time,

I have made the point a number of times but just in your own head imagine I am selling a car for €11,950 asking price.

How much will you offer me for it?

Darragh29

gabgab wrote: »

@ Darragh 29: Consumer also would like to purchase a new car but cant

@ Bazz 29 : I would happily put a thread together indicating as many factors that need to be viewed before suggesting a price for a car

This could then be stickied and locked maybe,

I see countless threads up here about dealers this, second hand prices etc,

All can be answered in a very short space of time and a figure come about, but what has to be gotten across is these simple facts:

ANY product or service is worth what it achieves at the very last part of a sale. Not the suggested or asking price

Cars cost money to turn around and have in decent condition that people would be encouraged to purchase after seeing them and driving them

Business, is there to make a fair profit based on the risk and overheads

@ baz26: Yeah agreed, but what's wrong with a discussion about all of this???

All of the market assumptions connected with demand and supply have gone out the window, you have buyers going into dealerships looking for a dealer to sell at a loss, some dealers under pressure HAVE to sell to keep cashflow coming through, especially if they have invested recently in building assets and are now being managed by their bank. On the other hand, you have dealerships trying to ride out the situation and just not selling at the moment, how long this will go on for is open to interpretation. I passed several dealerships yesterday down on the Naas Road (motor mall) and I was amazed at how rusty the brake discs looked on every single car that was out on display. I'm not talking about surface rust here, I'm looking at rust that builds up when a car hasn't moved in months. Obviously every car was being kept clean and ready for sale and got a regular polish to keep it looking fresh, but it was obvious to the discerning eye that these cars hadn't moved literally an inch in months...

gabgab

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah agreed, but what's wrong with a discussion about all of this???

All of the market assumptions connected with demand and supply have gone out the window, you have buyers going into dealerships looking for a dealer to sell at a loss, some dealers under pressure HAVE to sell to keep cashflow coming through, especially if they have invested recently in building assets and are now being managed by their bank. On the other hand, you have dealerships trying to ride out the situation and just not selling at the moment, how long this will go on for is open to interpretation. I passed several dealerships yesterday down on the Naas Road (motor mall) and I was amazed at how rusty the brake discs looked on every single car that was out on display. I'm not talking about surface rust here, I'm looking at rust that builds up when a car hasn't moved in months. Obviously every car was being kept clean and ready for sale and got a regular polish to keep it looking fresh, but it was obvious to the discerning eye that these cars hadn't moved literally an inch in months...

Sorry i am at a bit of a loss as to what you are getting at,

I thought this was the discussion, no?

Darragh29

gabgab wrote: »

@ Darragh 29

People just do not do this, they do not spend money on maintenance as a rule in Ireland. Also bear in mind Darragh that figure you are working out in your head, has to allow for:

A profit for the garage
A discount that customers push for all the time,

I have made the point a number of times but just in your own head imagine I am selling a car for €11,950 asking price.

How much will you offer me for it?

I accept your point on the maintenance. But having said that, if someone presents a car with 4 new tyres, then the price they are looking for cannot be reduced because the car needs tyres, and the same goes for servicing, imminent timing belt replacements, paintwork, etc. In a normal market situation, (which is not the current set-up), I'd be looking to do business at 11,000 Euro. I'd be making the following assumptions:

(A) That this car cost you 8,500 Euro maximum to acquire, and,

(B) That you had to put 500 Euro into it for me to offer you 11,000 Euro for the same car.

Based on the above, I imagine that car will stand you 2K profit. Out of that 2K comes a commission of around 10% for the salesman, reducing your gross margin on the transaction to 1,800 Euro. If the salesman is doing this once a day, he is generating (1,800 Euro * 6), 10,800 Euro a week in gross profit for his employer. This already takes account of his commission, so we only have to pay his base wage out of this 10,800 Euro a week, say 600 Euro a week before deductions, so we are down to 10,200 Euro a week gross profit.

L-M

Ok so, put a fair value on this car. From the dealers point of view and from Joe Public.

06 Ford Focus 1.6 petrol. Ghia model.
Grey in colour. No leather. Alloys etc. all the bits.
34,000km on the clock and just over €26,000 euro new.
Tyre's ok, small scuff on front bumper. No major scratches dents but needs a good compound polish. Needs a service. Full history otherwise with dealer. 1 owner.

Darragh29

gabgab wrote: »

This could then be stickied and locked maybe,

Which would thereby end the discussion! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Darragh29

Limerick-man wrote: »

Ok so, put a fair value on this car. From the dealers point of view and from Joe Public.

06 Ford Focus 1.6 petrol. Ghia model.
Grey in colour. No leather. Alloys etc. all the bits.
34,000km on the clock and just over €26,000 euro new.
Tyre's ok, small scuff on front bumper. No major scratches dents but needs a good compound polish. Needs a service. Full history otherwise with dealer. 1 owner.

Ok, so we'll put 500 Euro into the car for a full service, valet and a small touch up... Agreed???

gabgab

Darragh29 wrote: »

I accept your point on the maintenance. But having said that, if someone presents a car with 4 new tyres, then the price they are looking for cannot be reduced because the car needs tyres, and the same goes for servicing, imminent timing belt replacements, paintwork, etc. In a normal market situation, (which is not the current set-up), I'd be looking to do business at 11,000 Euro. I'd be making the following assumptions:

(A) That this car cost you 8,500 Euro maximum to acquire, and,

(B) That you had to put 500 Euro into it for me to offer you 11,000 Euro for the same car.

Based on the above, I imagine that car will stand you 2K profit. Out of that 2K comes a commission of around 10% for the salesman, reducing your gross margin on the transaction to 1,800 Euro. If the salesman is doing this once a day, he is generating (1,800 Euro * 6), 10,800 Euro a week in gross profit for his employer. This already takes account of his commission, so we only have to pay his base wage out of this 10,800 Euro a week, say 600 Euro a week before deductions, so we are down to 10,200 Euro a week gross profit.

House charge,
Warranty Charge,
Valet,

Then bear in mind Vat, and where is the profit at now?

This is the same old discussion, and it goes round and round, I outlined the costs involved, and you have ignored a number of them.

Also how did I acquire the car for that price, sure you came into me with it and can see that they are asking 11,950 for a similar car.

How do I acquire that exact car, for €8,500

L-M

Darragh29 wrote: »

Ok, so we'll put 500 Euro into the car for a full service, valet and a small touch up... Agreed???

Could cost a bit more but we'll leave it at that for round figures.

gabgab

Darragh29 wrote: »

Which would thereby end the discussion! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I said I would put one together, not this exact one. So that the countless people that ask this question can find it nice and easy at the very top..... Not make more sense?

Also people will not want to trawl through page after page of discussion,

colm_mcm

This is what would be typically going through my mind on seeing the Focus mentioned above:

1.6 doesn't sell as well as 1.4
Saloon doesn't sell as well as hatchback
Diesel models are now much cheaper new
There are loads of Focus's for sale.
I may be still looking at this car in 3 months time
Avis/Budget hire drive 08 Style models are coming back soon
Enterprise are selling their 06 ad 07 stuff at auction
Will people actually pay much more for a Ghia model?

L-M

colm_mcm wrote: »

This is what would be typically going through my mind on seeing the Focus mentioned above:

1.6 doesn't sell as well as 1.4
Saloon doesn't sell as well as hatchback
Diesel models are now much cheaper new
There are loads of Focus's for sale.
I may be still looking at this car in 3 months time
Avis/Budget hire drive 08 Style models are coming back soon
Enterprise are selling their 06 ad 07 stuff at auction
Will people actually pay much more for a Ghia model

?

Which the exception of one or two they were all the points i was hoping would catch people out. Can u put a spoiler on them incase Joe Public see's them..

Limerick-man

Limerick-man wrote: »

Ok so, put a fair value on this car. From the dealers point of view and from Joe Public.

06 Ford Focus 1.6 petrol. Ghia model.
Grey in colour. No leather. Alloys etc. all the bits.
34,000km on the clock and just over €26,000 euro new.
Tyre's ok, small scuff on front bumper. No major scratches dents but needs a good compound polish. Needs a service. Full history otherwise with dealer. 1 owner.

http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/ni/cars_search.jsp?page=0&searchform=&modelexact=1&lid=search_used_cars_full&photo=1&state=block&sort=3&hassearched=Y&make=FORD&min_pr=75&source=0&model=FOCUS&max_pr=&miles=1500&agerange=7&mileage=3&postcode=ll65+1ya&variant=&bodyid=0&trim=&fuelid=1&colour=&transmissionid=0&keywords=ghia&ukcarsearch_full.x=33&ukcarsearch_full.y=16&ukcarsearch_full=SEARCH

versus

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=search&sortby=PriceAsc&maxrows=100&MakeID=9&ModelID=78&FuelID=1&Year_Min=2006&Year_Max=2006&GroupID=738&searchtext=1.6%20ghia


UK is cheaper even including VRT and a thousand for travel over and back

L-M

Deleted User wrote: »

http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/ni/cars_search.jsp?page=0&searchform=&modelexact=1&lid=search_used_cars_full&photo=1&state=block&sort=3&hassearched=Y&make=FORD&min_pr=75&source=0&model=FOCUS&max_pr=&miles=1500&agerange=7&mileage=3&postcode=ll65+1ya&variant=&bodyid=0&trim=&fuelid=1&colour=&transmissionid=0&keywords=ghia&ukcarsearch_full.x=33&ukcarsearch_full.y=16&ukcarsearch_full=SEARCH

versus

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=search&sortby=PriceAsc&maxrows=100&MakeID=9&ModelID=78&FuelID=1&Year_Min=2006&Year_Max=2006&GroupID=738&searchtext=1.6%20ghia


UK is cheaper even including VRT and a thousand for travel over and back

We'll exclude the UK for the time being.

gabgab

Limerick-man wrote: »

Which the exception of one or two they were all the points i was hoping would catch people out. Can u put a spoiler on them incase Joe Public see's them..

Not trying to catch anyone out Limerick man, if they come up with a fair price then happy days,

L-M

gabgab wrote: »

Not trying to catch anyone out Limerick man, if they come up with a fair price then happy days,

Could of phrased it better, but you get where i'm coming from.