Trade in assessment, may be of some help for some people:

jonnygee

gabgab wrote: »

Can I ask you though how you know it is a silly price?

Do you know the market?
Do you know what you're car is going to actually fetch in terms of a straight sale on a forecourt, including the charges, costs, and profit margin included in that deal?
Please post up your car details and what you believe is a realistic price for it?

Without sounding patronising, this attitude of I am not getting what I want does not wash. The factors you have considered, the variables that need to be taken into account and the costs involved are rarely if ever considered by the customer that point blank believes their car is worth more,

If the price previously was not in line with your expectations, how much have you reduced your figure by for the next price?

I would be very interested to hear the answers to these questions,

Gab

Sorry guys, took the wife to London for a few days with the money I didnt spend on a car in July, In reply on I April 2008 I could have changed my 1.6 petrol focus zetec for 7,500 euro. In July this year dealer was asking 13,500 euro to change for same again, he cant get diesel models until October so it was like for like. Now even if I dont know the market then my limited intelligence tells me that there is something not quite right here, it seems that I must lose so that the garage can win. No way hosay. Nct,d my car today until 01/02/2011 and will drive it until market returns to realistic levels. Have to work for a full week now, cant reply, sorry.

-Chris-

jonnygee wrote: »

Sorry guys, took the wife to London for a few days with the money I didnt spend on a car in July, In reply on I April 2008 I could have changed my 1.6 petrol focus zetec for 7,500 euro. In July this year dealer was asking 13,500 euro to change for same again, he cant get diesel models until October so it was like for like. Now even if I dont know the market then my limited intelligence tells me that there is something not quite right here, it seems that I must lose so that the garage can win. No way hosay. Nct,d my car today until 01/02/2011 and will drive it until market returns to realistic levels. Have to work for a full week now, cant reply, sorry.

That contradicts itself Jonny. You accept the market has changed and are willing to wait until it recovers, but you also think the dealer is winning by you losing (by you not buying, the dealer's losing. That's the reality). The dealer didn't change your trade-in value, the market changed the amount the dealer's willing to offer.

It's like buying a new house last year and then going and suing the developer because it's not worth what you paid for it.
True, the developers have been making inordinate amounts of profit in recent years, but you bought the house for what you thought it was worth. If that worth changes due to general economic circumstances, then there's noone specific to blame, that's just the way the market's gone!


I realise that by mentioning developers in a thread about dealers will probably prompt a couple of "stealers" and "developers were ripping us off, just like those damn dealers" comments.
I don't want to drag the thread OT...

gabgab

jonnygee wrote: »

Sorry guys, took the wife to London for a few days with the money I didnt spend on a car in July, In reply on I April 2008 I could have changed my 1.6 petrol focus zetec for 7,500 euro. In July this year dealer was asking 13,500 euro to change for same again, he cant get diesel models until October so it was like for like. Now even if I dont know the market then my limited intelligence tells me that there is something not quite right here, it seems that I must lose so that the garage can win. No way hosay. Nct,d my car today until 01/02/2011 and will drive it until market returns to realistic levels. Have to work for a full week now, cant reply, sorry.

Again what has changed since the valuation the dealer gave you.

A 1.6 Liter Focus zetec, is not a description of a car. Look at the changes to your car since then,

Damaged?
Mileage increase since appraisal?
Is it due a service?
Does it need tires?
Have 400 hire drive Ford Focus's returned since then and as a result washed out the market in accordance to supply and demand rules?
On top of all the other external factors, including slowdown in the economy etc.

This business is not as simple, as black and white as people believe it is. There are many variables in establishing the value of a car, and as such these need to be looked at objectively and realistically,

Darragh29

jonnygee wrote: »

Sorry guys, took the wife to London for a few days with the money I didnt spend on a car in July, In reply on I April 2008 I could have changed my 1.6 petrol focus zetec for 7,500 euro. In July this year dealer was asking 13,500 euro to change for same again, he cant get diesel models until October so it was like for like. Now even if I dont know the market then my limited intelligence tells me that there is something not quite right here, it seems that I must lose so that the garage can win. No way hosay. Nct,d my car today until 01/02/2011 and will drive it until market returns to realistic levels. Have to work for a full week now, cant reply, sorry.

+1. The market is thankfully wider than the narrow construction placed upon the meaning of the word "market" on this particular thread. The Main Dealerships until recently have relied on buyers coming to only one conclusion, which is that for folks who want to buy a new car, they have to engage with the dealer on his or her terms only. Now we are seeing fresh thinking as we can see in the above thread and people are seeing that there is clear value in keeping their car for longer and not being scared of events like an NCT, which in all reality should not be a major problem for a car going for its first NCT. As Johnny Gee has pointed out, right now, based on him doing business with a dealer, Johhny has to lose for the dealer to win. If Johnny decides not to do business with the dealer, Johnny wins and the dealer loses. What we are seeing right now is the majority of dealerships being in denial as to this situation...

L-M

The last time i checked there were 760 odd 06 Ford Focus for sale in Ireland. Maybe more, there is no supply and demand with these, if someone is buying one and your price isn't right, he has 759 other focus that he can look at before he has to buy yours.

Especially in the case of the Focus, it is more so than anywhere else a buyers market. Price has to be right or people will just go somewhere else.

bazz26

I've been reading this thread with great interest, both customers and dealers put up a good argument here from both sides. It really does open up your eyes to alot from both sides.

However I think there needs to be alot more transperancy from the motor industry as to how things are done in Ireland, a good example being this thread on how a garage evaluates a trade in, to how a garage operates as a business.

A prime example I can think of is the little brown book that dealers use as a guide to evaluate a trade in. This book is only available to folks within the motor trade and not the general public unlike the UK where Glass publish a similar guide book every month or so giving guide prices on all used models on the market.

I agree that as a owner of a car we all like to think our pride and joy is worth more despite there being numerous uncontrolable external factors on the open market which affect the valuation of a car.

At least if there was some sort of reference for owners to consult before we even walk into the showroom then maybe expectations would not be so unrealistic.

I for one am tired of seeing sales people sitting behind a desk flicking through a little book for the valuation of my car, it gives me the impression that he is just pulling any figure from it. If I had access to the same book prior to going into the garage at least that way I would have a realistic figure in my head as to what my car is worth.

Imo I think something like this would help both Joe Public and the motor trade.

L-M

bazz26 wrote: »

A prime example I can think of is the little brown book that dealers use as a guide to evaluate a trade in. This book is only available to folks within the motor trade and not the general public unlike the UK where Glass publish a similar guide book every month or so giving guide prices on all used models on the market.

I wouldn't even go near that book, or the book guide(on the computer system). Alot of the time it can be very far out. Market can change very easily and quickly.

gabgab

@ Darragh 29: Consumer also would like to purchase a new car but cant

@ Bazz 29 : I would happily put a thread together indicating as many factors that need to be viewed before suggesting a price for a car

This could then be stickied and locked maybe,

I see countless threads up here about dealers this, second hand prices etc,

All can be answered in a very short space of time and a figure come about, but what has to be gotten across is these simple facts:

ANY product or service is worth what it achieves at the very last part of a sale. Not the suggested or asking price

Cars cost money to turn around and have in decent condition that people would be encouraged to purchase after seeing them and driving them

Business, is there to make a fair profit based on the risk and overheads

L-M

I don't know if it would be a good idea, alot of people have different ways of putting a value on a trade in, also i'm sure alot of boardsies would be mouthing and disagreeing with bits said on it. If ye want to try it i'll contribute but whether it'll work is another story.

bazz26

If the book was published once a month it would be accurate enough, granted the market at the moment is fairly volatile but surely there is not a large gulf between prices last month and prices this month?

Again from a Joe Public point of view if I was trading my car in the morning how do I know I am getting the going rate for it if I have no point of reference from the motor industry other than take the word of the garage making the offer?

At the end of the day a garage is in the business of making money so I as a customer would assume they like any business would try to maximise the profit from the deal. Equally the consumer is in the business of getting the best deal possible.

And I am not having a go at dealers here just trying to contribute to the debate.

gabgab

Limerick-man wrote: »

I don't know if it would be a good idea, alot of people have different ways of putting a value on a trade in, also i'm sure alot of boardsies would be mouthing and disagreeing with bits said on it. If ye want to try it i'll contribute but whether it'll work is another story.

Its a broad description of how it works, not a finite answer. If people aer aware of the costs then its not quiete so hard to accept,

Like most things in life, if you have no understanding of it then it is frustrating and you tend to believe you are being taken for a mug especially with something as emotionally involving as their car and a large amount of their money

gabgab

@ Bazz26

To be fair how do you know that your car is a "going rate car"

If you owned it from new and it has standard specification, with a desirable registration, and you know it has never been crashed or painted then you can make that assessment yourself in a fairly educated approach as the variables are limited,

If this is not the case then it is not a fair assessment, for all the reasons already outlined in this thread

At the end of the day a garage is in the business of making money so I as a customer would assume they like any business would try to maximise the profit from the deal

Darragh29

bazz26 wrote: »

If I had access to the same book prior to going into the garage at least that way I would have a realistic figure in my head as to what my car is worth.

Imo I think something like this would help both Joe Public and the motor trade.

Well to a large degree, you have access to what trade in price you will get. For example, instead of allowing a dealer to say to you, "oh, well for starters it needs a service and 4 tyres, and this that and the other", get this done yourself and then you will likely get the maximum book value for your car.

bazz26

gabgab wrote: »

Its a broad description of how it works, not a finite answer. If people aer aware of the costs then its not quiete so hard to accept,

Like most things in life, if you have no understanding of it then it is frustrating and you tend to believe you are being taken for a mug especially with something as emotionally involving as their car and a large amount of their money

Exactly, if something as like a guide book to valuations was available to the public on a regular basis by the motor industry then I think it would reduce the amount of unrealistic valuations owners put on their cars, hence customers would not become insulted when the valuation doesn't match the unrealistic figure in their head.

As it stands customers are on the outside looking in and dealers are on the inside looking out.

gabgab

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well to a large degree, you have access to what trade in price you will get. For example, instead of allowing a dealer to say to you, "oh, well for starters it needs a service and 4 tyres, and this that and the other", get this done yourself and then you will likely get the maximum book value for your car.

@ Darragh 29

People just do not do this, they do not spend money on maintenance as a rule in Ireland. Also bear in mind Darragh that figure you are working out in your head, has to allow for:

A profit for the garage
A discount that customers push for all the time,

I have made the point a number of times but just in your own head imagine I am selling a car for €11,950 asking price.

How much will you offer me for it?

Darragh29

gabgab wrote: »

@ Darragh 29: Consumer also would like to purchase a new car but cant

@ Bazz 29 : I would happily put a thread together indicating as many factors that need to be viewed before suggesting a price for a car

This could then be stickied and locked maybe,

I see countless threads up here about dealers this, second hand prices etc,

All can be answered in a very short space of time and a figure come about, but what has to be gotten across is these simple facts:

ANY product or service is worth what it achieves at the very last part of a sale. Not the suggested or asking price

Cars cost money to turn around and have in decent condition that people would be encouraged to purchase after seeing them and driving them

Business, is there to make a fair profit based on the risk and overheads

@ baz26: Yeah agreed, but what's wrong with a discussion about all of this???

All of the market assumptions connected with demand and supply have gone out the window, you have buyers going into dealerships looking for a dealer to sell at a loss, some dealers under pressure HAVE to sell to keep cashflow coming through, especially if they have invested recently in building assets and are now being managed by their bank. On the other hand, you have dealerships trying to ride out the situation and just not selling at the moment, how long this will go on for is open to interpretation. I passed several dealerships yesterday down on the Naas Road (motor mall) and I was amazed at how rusty the brake discs looked on every single car that was out on display. I'm not talking about surface rust here, I'm looking at rust that builds up when a car hasn't moved in months. Obviously every car was being kept clean and ready for sale and got a regular polish to keep it looking fresh, but it was obvious to the discerning eye that these cars hadn't moved literally an inch in months...

gabgab

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah agreed, but what's wrong with a discussion about all of this???

All of the market assumptions connected with demand and supply have gone out the window, you have buyers going into dealerships looking for a dealer to sell at a loss, some dealers under pressure HAVE to sell to keep cashflow coming through, especially if they have invested recently in building assets and are now being managed by their bank. On the other hand, you have dealerships trying to ride out the situation and just not selling at the moment, how long this will go on for is open to interpretation. I passed several dealerships yesterday down on the Naas Road (motor mall) and I was amazed at how rusty the brake discs looked on every single car that was out on display. I'm not talking about surface rust here, I'm looking at rust that builds up when a car hasn't moved in months. Obviously every car was being kept clean and ready for sale and got a regular polish to keep it looking fresh, but it was obvious to the discerning eye that these cars hadn't moved literally an inch in months...

Sorry i am at a bit of a loss as to what you are getting at,

I thought this was the discussion, no?

Darragh29

gabgab wrote: »

@ Darragh 29

People just do not do this, they do not spend money on maintenance as a rule in Ireland. Also bear in mind Darragh that figure you are working out in your head, has to allow for:

A profit for the garage
A discount that customers push for all the time,

I have made the point a number of times but just in your own head imagine I am selling a car for €11,950 asking price.

How much will you offer me for it?

I accept your point on the maintenance. But having said that, if someone presents a car with 4 new tyres, then the price they are looking for cannot be reduced because the car needs tyres, and the same goes for servicing, imminent timing belt replacements, paintwork, etc. In a normal market situation, (which is not the current set-up), I'd be looking to do business at 11,000 Euro. I'd be making the following assumptions:

(A) That this car cost you 8,500 Euro maximum to acquire, and,

(B) That you had to put 500 Euro into it for me to offer you 11,000 Euro for the same car.

Based on the above, I imagine that car will stand you 2K profit. Out of that 2K comes a commission of around 10% for the salesman, reducing your gross margin on the transaction to 1,800 Euro. If the salesman is doing this once a day, he is generating (1,800 Euro * 6), 10,800 Euro a week in gross profit for his employer. This already takes account of his commission, so we only have to pay his base wage out of this 10,800 Euro a week, say 600 Euro a week before deductions, so we are down to 10,200 Euro a week gross profit.

L-M

Ok so, put a fair value on this car. From the dealers point of view and from Joe Public.

06 Ford Focus 1.6 petrol. Ghia model.
Grey in colour. No leather. Alloys etc. all the bits.
34,000km on the clock and just over €26,000 euro new.
Tyre's ok, small scuff on front bumper. No major scratches dents but needs a good compound polish. Needs a service. Full history otherwise with dealer. 1 owner.

Darragh29

gabgab wrote: »

This could then be stickied and locked maybe,

Which would thereby end the discussion! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Darragh29

Limerick-man wrote: »

Ok so, put a fair value on this car. From the dealers point of view and from Joe Public.

06 Ford Focus 1.6 petrol. Ghia model.
Grey in colour. No leather. Alloys etc. all the bits.
34,000km on the clock and just over €26,000 euro new.
Tyre's ok, small scuff on front bumper. No major scratches dents but needs a good compound polish. Needs a service. Full history otherwise with dealer. 1 owner.

Ok, so we'll put 500 Euro into the car for a full service, valet and a small touch up... Agreed???

gabgab

Darragh29 wrote: »

I accept your point on the maintenance. But having said that, if someone presents a car with 4 new tyres, then the price they are looking for cannot be reduced because the car needs tyres, and the same goes for servicing, imminent timing belt replacements, paintwork, etc. In a normal market situation, (which is not the current set-up), I'd be looking to do business at 11,000 Euro. I'd be making the following assumptions:

(A) That this car cost you 8,500 Euro maximum to acquire, and,

(B) That you had to put 500 Euro into it for me to offer you 11,000 Euro for the same car.

Based on the above, I imagine that car will stand you 2K profit. Out of that 2K comes a commission of around 10% for the salesman, reducing your gross margin on the transaction to 1,800 Euro. If the salesman is doing this once a day, he is generating (1,800 Euro * 6), 10,800 Euro a week in gross profit for his employer. This already takes account of his commission, so we only have to pay his base wage out of this 10,800 Euro a week, say 600 Euro a week before deductions, so we are down to 10,200 Euro a week gross profit.

House charge,
Warranty Charge,
Valet,

Then bear in mind Vat, and where is the profit at now?

This is the same old discussion, and it goes round and round, I outlined the costs involved, and you have ignored a number of them.

Also how did I acquire the car for that price, sure you came into me with it and can see that they are asking 11,950 for a similar car.

How do I acquire that exact car, for €8,500

L-M

Darragh29 wrote: »

Ok, so we'll put 500 Euro into the car for a full service, valet and a small touch up... Agreed???

Could cost a bit more but we'll leave it at that for round figures.

gabgab

Darragh29 wrote: »

Which would thereby end the discussion! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I said I would put one together, not this exact one. So that the countless people that ask this question can find it nice and easy at the very top..... Not make more sense?

Also people will not want to trawl through page after page of discussion,

colm_mcm

This is what would be typically going through my mind on seeing the Focus mentioned above:

1.6 doesn't sell as well as 1.4
Saloon doesn't sell as well as hatchback
Diesel models are now much cheaper new
There are loads of Focus's for sale.
I may be still looking at this car in 3 months time
Avis/Budget hire drive 08 Style models are coming back soon
Enterprise are selling their 06 ad 07 stuff at auction
Will people actually pay much more for a Ghia model?

L-M

colm_mcm wrote: »

This is what would be typically going through my mind on seeing the Focus mentioned above:

1.6 doesn't sell as well as 1.4
Saloon doesn't sell as well as hatchback
Diesel models are now much cheaper new
There are loads of Focus's for sale.
I may be still looking at this car in 3 months time
Avis/Budget hire drive 08 Style models are coming back soon
Enterprise are selling their 06 ad 07 stuff at auction
Will people actually pay much more for a Ghia model

?

Which the exception of one or two they were all the points i was hoping would catch people out. Can u put a spoiler on them incase Joe Public see's them..

Limerick-man

Limerick-man wrote: »

Ok so, put a fair value on this car. From the dealers point of view and from Joe Public.

06 Ford Focus 1.6 petrol. Ghia model.
Grey in colour. No leather. Alloys etc. all the bits.
34,000km on the clock and just over €26,000 euro new.
Tyre's ok, small scuff on front bumper. No major scratches dents but needs a good compound polish. Needs a service. Full history otherwise with dealer. 1 owner.

http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/ni/cars_search.jsp?page=0&searchform=&modelexact=1&lid=search_used_cars_full&photo=1&state=block&sort=3&hassearched=Y&make=FORD&min_pr=75&source=0&model=FOCUS&max_pr=&miles=1500&agerange=7&mileage=3&postcode=ll65+1ya&variant=&bodyid=0&trim=&fuelid=1&colour=&transmissionid=0&keywords=ghia&ukcarsearch_full.x=33&ukcarsearch_full.y=16&ukcarsearch_full=SEARCH

versus

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=search&sortby=PriceAsc&maxrows=100&MakeID=9&ModelID=78&FuelID=1&Year_Min=2006&Year_Max=2006&GroupID=738&searchtext=1.6%20ghia


UK is cheaper even including VRT and a thousand for travel over and back

L-M

Deleted User wrote: »

http://atsearch.autotrader.co.uk/ni/cars_search.jsp?page=0&searchform=&modelexact=1&lid=search_used_cars_full&photo=1&state=block&sort=3&hassearched=Y&make=FORD&min_pr=75&source=0&model=FOCUS&max_pr=&miles=1500&agerange=7&mileage=3&postcode=ll65+1ya&variant=&bodyid=0&trim=&fuelid=1&colour=&transmissionid=0&keywords=ghia&ukcarsearch_full.x=33&ukcarsearch_full.y=16&ukcarsearch_full=SEARCH

versus

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=search&sortby=PriceAsc&maxrows=100&MakeID=9&ModelID=78&FuelID=1&Year_Min=2006&Year_Max=2006&GroupID=738&searchtext=1.6%20ghia


UK is cheaper even including VRT and a thousand for travel over and back

We'll exclude the UK for the time being.

gabgab

Limerick-man wrote: »

Which the exception of one or two they were all the points i was hoping would catch people out. Can u put a spoiler on them incase Joe Public see's them..

Not trying to catch anyone out Limerick man, if they come up with a fair price then happy days,

L-M

gabgab wrote: »

Not trying to catch anyone out Limerick man, if they come up with a fair price then happy days,

Could of phrased it better, but you get where i'm coming from.