Advice sought for prospective cat owner

Jack B. Badd

My boyfriend and I have recently moved into a lower ground floor garden flat and are thinking of getting a cat or a kitten. I've never had a cat though my boyfriend has had them as family pets since he was young, and we've both had dogs so we're not inexperienced with pets.
After some discussion on the matter, we've come to the following conclusions: we're looking for an oldish kitten (4 - 6 months), preferably female, mixed breed - microchipped, neutered, vaccinated, etc. We want to keep the cat outside in the (enclosed) back garden during the day while we're at work for a number of reasons - mainly because we don't want to be over-indulgent and end up with an animal that is used to being indoors all the time, also we've seen a rather bold rat outside the patio door earlier this week and want the cat to be a deterrent to rodents. The apartment doesn't have a cat flap and we're not going to get one; a) because of the aforementioned rat(s) and b) because it would be a huge amount of hassle to fit it and then remove it when we leave - we're renting. We are thinking of getting something along the lines of this for her to use during the day and obviously we'll be bringing her in to sleep in the apartment at night.

So, my question is: does the above plan make sense to the more experienced cat owners amongst you?

I've had a look around on other pet forums and realise I'll probably get a number of people telling me that a cat should be kept indoors. However, I'm not particularly interested in a debate on the pros and cons on keeping a cat outdoors - I'm looking advise on the practicalities of the above.

Thanks

boomerang

What do you mean exactly when you say the garden is enclosed? High walls?

I am currently fostering a four month old kitten, and I can tell you I don't think she would deter a rat. She's much too young, small and vulnerable. I've seen dogs and cats get quite ill after killing rats - so consider the risk you're running if your cat does successfully catch a rat. At the very least, she'll be picking up parasites. If it's a rat dying of poisoning, your little cat would be done for.

My four month old kitten is also too young to be allowed outdoors unsupervised - six months would be a starting point - and she's also much too young to be left alone all day - not to mind being left alone outdoors all day. Besides, I wouldn't let her outdoors alone until she's been spayed.

The thing is, if you're not around during the day and the cat/kitten is left outdoors while you're gone, I don't think she's going to develop a strong bond with you. If someone else local to you is at home during the day to make a fuss of her and give her treats, she'll be gone out over that garden wall in no time. Best case scenario, you'll have a cat that comes home to eat/sleep, but yours may be one of several homes she enjoys. My kitten is most active in the evenings and at night. Chances are, your kitten will stay up long into the night wanting to play, and then cry to be let in during the day to sleep in a cosy spot indoors rather than in the outdoor cat house you're considering.

Bear in mind that the average lifespan of an urban cat with the outdoor access you suggest is two to three years. If she goes missing, there's a one in four chance she'll never come back and you'll be left wondering what happened.

Incidentally, any cat/kitten entering a new home needs to be restricted indoors for several weeks at least.

Hope this helps.

forestfruits

I do agree that you do need to keep the kitten indoors for a few weeks until it learns that that is now home.

My own cat is an outdoor/indoor cat I had intended he would be more of an indoor cat but he wasnt interested, once he hit about 7 months he wasnt happy with wandering in the garden, he would take off for the day sometimes days at a time but always coming home for food attention and sleep and usually in that order!


Cats are very good at getting out of supposedly enclosed areas so dont be wondering if you arrive home some day and the cat is gone- but if its figured out that your place is home it will return.


Id try to strike a balance between having your cat indoor and outdoor, I dont agree with keeping them inside all the time it cant be good for them!
So long as your not gone all day long the cat will be fine!

good luck.

carwash_2006

I dont agree with keeping them inside all the time it cant be good for them!

Can you explain please why you reckon it can't be good for them? I don't know of any particular reason why it can't be good for them. I do know that getting run over by a car can't be good for them. Neither is poisoning, getting lost and starving to death, catching FIV or FeLV, being shot or beaten to death by people who consider cats vermin or toys, getting picked up by pest control and being gassed in the back of a van, do you want me to go on?

So long as your not gone all day long the cat will be fine!

They have already said that they will be gone all day and expect the cat to stay outside for this time. They do not say why they do not want the cat inside while they are out, except that they don't want to be over-indulgent and have a cat that expects to be inside all the time.

I am not goin gto get into a big argument about why you should keep the cat inside, all I will say is, assuming you will allow the cat a small period of grace to get used to it's new home and to be spayed or neutered, it will probably be ok for the fairly short period you will have it. All I can hope is that it will find a new home that will allow it inside when it needs to be in and not just on the whim of it's owners, rather than meeting with one of the unpleasant ends listed above.

Sharpshooter

I would not worry about having a cat indoors all the time and cant think for the life of me how it would be over- indulgent. If you wont be at home during the day could you not foster 2 and see how it goes , having 5 myself , 2 indoor an 3 outdoor ( were born wild and wont come in ) . At least your cat would have company and many shelters have whole litters waiting on homes.
If you gave a home to 2 from the same litter at least they would be used to each other and there would be no problems to deal with.Plenty of toys ( they love to play )
and lots of petting ( on their terms ) and you would be fine. It is not cruel to keep them inside and never would I call it over-indulgent. If you go ahead I hope you will be well rewarded for your choice.:)

Jack B. Badd

Thanks for all the replies. As I expected the general consensus is that cats should be kept indoors for the majority of the time. Nonetheless, neither of us want an indoor cat so it's a moot point. Regarding my comment about over-indulgence, both myself and my boyfriend consider animals to be just that, animals. There's a pecking order in a household and in my eyes a cat or dog is (or should be) at the bottom of it. In the same way that I wouldn't allow a pet onto the sofa, my bed or in the room while we're having a meal, I also think that animals should learn to spend at least part of the time outdoors. I'm sure this probably comes across as somewhat harsh but ultimately I'll be having a pet on my (not unreasonable) terms, not theirs. Not to mention I think it's cruel to keep an animal indoors 24/7.
I probably should have said that 4 - 6 months is the absolute minimum we'd be looking for, though we'll probably have to go for an older kitten/young cat in the end. As for the rat problem, I doubt that a cat would be able to take on and kill a full sized rat (I might be wrong about this) but I would have though that the cat's presence in the garden would be a deterrent to rodents.
As for the back garden, there are stone wall about 5 - 6 feet high on three sides and the house on the fourth. I have no illusions that a cat will be able to get over these if it wants to - I reckon nothing short of an electrified fence will keep a cat in one place if it wants to wander. However, we have been considering the possible precautions we can take in the event of it wandering; we both think that a female (neutered obviously) will be less likely to wander/will have a smaller range than a tom, microchipping is a must, we won't be letting her out at night. As for a cat being most active in the evening and night, I would have thought that this would suit us best as we're usually home at this time and will be there to play with her
sharpshooterH, you proposed getting two cats for company. Does this usually help to combat the problem of wandering with outdoor cats? Would two cats be more likely to stay in a garden together for company or would we just end up worrying about two cats having wandered rather than one?

Thanks again.

JB1

Jack,

I would not recommand you getting a cat-nor 2.You clearly don't seem to be willing to have some kind of committement..an outdoor cat in an enclosed garden is miserable as they are extremly curious-they wish to explore-locking them up in the garden will only annoy them.it's not a good thing for the cat.Why don't you get a rabbit?

cheers

carwash_2006

Actually, a neutered tom is the least likely to roam.

I keep my cats indoors with access to a secure run. I have no illusions that they are anything other than animals. I do however consider that as I am the one who is responsible for their care and well being that it is my duty to do everything in my power to ensure they remain healthy and whole as well as happy.

I also prefer to keep MY cats from bothering other people. How many threads do we get on here from people wondering how to stop the neighbours cats from ****ting in their gardens? It is illegal to allow your dogs to roam around bothering everyone, why is it legal to allow our cats out, just because they need slightly different type of fencing to keep them in.

There are things you can do to stop a cat getting out over high walls, but the walls that are there would probably not be quite high enough and since you are renting I don't imagine you want to/are allowed to do much in the way of messing with the fencing.

You know if you don't want the animal to get used to being in all of the time it would probably be a better option if it were in while you are out and let out for a few hours when you are home and then brought in to sleep. Being out all the time while you are not there is likely to send them off looking for other entertainment and if anything happens you are not there to provide care. I'm also thinking that if the cat is just shut outside for hours with no way of getting in, could the rodents just get scared into the house?

Sharpshooter

sharpshooterH, you proposed getting two cats for company. Does this usually help to combat the problem of wandering with outdoor cats? Would two cats be more likely to stay in a garden together for company or would we just end up worrying about two cats having wandered rather than one?

Hi Jack ,
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear , the suggestion about 2 cat's was only if you were going to keep them indoor.Again , sorry for any misunderstanding.

Nothingcompares

I was visiting a friend for a week in her apartment and she has 3 happy house cats. I have to admit it took me a while to get used to the fact that the cats can go anywhere in her apartment, sleep on the sofa, sleep on her bed, climb on the dining table. She is a cat person and all cat people will say that this is normal and that leaving a house cat outside is basically negligence and selfish (towards neighbours etc.). You want a cat but you don't want to be a cat person. That's fair enough.

Where do you plan to leave the litterbox? What happens if another outdoor cat or stray cat decides your little cat cabin is going to be their cat cabin, at least when there is no people around?

MsFifers

Hi - you could put some netting up along the top of the wall to keep your cat from wandering like this:

http://www.catfencein.com/brochure3.php

If you know any DIY enthusiasists you could make your own version of it.

Regarding keeping your cat indoor/outdoor debate. I think many people find that the more indoor time your cat gets, the more interactive and affectionate they will be. If you don't want your cat on the furniture though maybe you don't particularly want a v. affectionate cat that walks all over you (in every sense!). Personally, the best thing about having a cat is when they curl up on your lap, purring away. I think it is the best stress-reliever ever! They should set up health spas with purring cat rooms!

A lot of outdoor cats will just take off every now and then, and as been said above, only 1 in 4 of them will come back.

I don't think either option (indoor v outdoor) is necessarily cruel - it all depends on how well the cats needs are met in either case. If your outdoor cat is given proper shelter (espec. in winter weather) and is protected from wandering onto roads & other people's gardens then fine.

I really don't believe in giving cats free reign though. I'm looking at my neighbourhood cats wandering all over the place, getting knocked down, attacked by dogs, pooing everywhere. It really isnt acceptable IMO.

Jack B. Badd

carwash_2006 wrote: »

You know if you don't want the animal to get used to being in all of the time it would probably be a better option if it were in while you are out and let out for a few hours when you are home and then brought in to sleep.

This could be an option but I would be concerned that a cat left on its own indoors for 9 hours a day would get bored, lonely and ultimately destructive. Maybe if we had a very large collection of toys...

As for rodents being scared into the house, we usually only have one small window in the back open when we're out and given its location I don't think an animal would have an easy time getting in.

sharpshooterH wrote: »

Hi Jack ,
Sorry if I didn't make myself clear , the suggestion about 2 cat's was only if you were going to keep them indoor.Again , sorry for any misunderstanding.

Thanks sharpshooterH, I was wondering about that

Nothingcompares wrote: »

Where do you plan to leave the litterbox? What happens if another outdoor cat or stray cat decides your little cat cabin is going to be their cat cabin, at least when there is no people around?

We're thinking of leaving the litterbox in the hall and have a space outside for the cat to go too - working on the assumption that having two different places to go won't confuse the cat too much. As for other cats being territorial, I've been looking about for ways to combat this but we'll probably have to cross that bridge when we come to it.

MsFifers wrote: »

Hi - you could put some netting up along the top of the wall to keep your cat from wandering like this:

http://www.catfencein.com/brochure3.php

The cat fence option is one I've been thinking of but would have to see how well it would fit with the existing walls - and obviously how easily it could be removed without doing damage.

Certainly we want an affectionate cat but not one that has free reign over us or our apartment. We'll have to find some way of introducing and maintaining a balance.

carwash_2006

This could be an option but I would be concerned that a cat left on its own indoors for 9 hours a day would get bored, lonely and ultimately destructive. Maybe if we had a very large collection of toys...

As long as you are careful not to leave breakables where they can be knocked off things and provide the cat with a decent scratching tree/activity station, most cats will just curl up and sleep when you are gone. They are not like dogs where if they get bored they will chew your chair legs.

As for rodents being scared into the house, we usually only have one small window in the back open when we're out and given its location I don't think an animal would have an easy time getting in.

I wouldn't count on that, most rodents can run straight up almost any surface they feel like. Anyway, they probabl don't need an open window to get in, unless you have gone around checking, most buildings have little cracks somewhere and a mouse can fit through a hole the size of a pencil.

Jack B. Badd

carwash_2006 wrote: »

As long as you are careful not to leave breakables where they can be knocked off things and provide the cat with a decent scratching tree/activity station, most cats will just curl up and sleep when you are gone. They are not like dogs where if they get bored they will chew your chair legs.

Hrmmm...you make an interesting point. Being more used to dogs I'm inclined to think that animals will pine if left alone for long periods of time without stimulation - the reason we're not automatically getting an Alsation. I think I'll have to discuss it with himself and see what conclusions we come to. Kitchen and bedroom would probably be off limits when we're out and we'll still want the cat to spend at least part of the time outside but we may be able to work it around the times when we're at home - mornings, evenings, weekends.

carwash_2006 wrote: »

I wouldn't count on that, most rodents can run straight up almost any surface they feel like. Anyway, they probabl don't need an open window to get in, unless you have gone around checking, most buildings have little cracks somewhere and a mouse can fit through a hole the size of a pencil.

Tbh, mice wouldn't bother me that much especially with a cat in the house for part of the day. Rats on the other hand would be a major problem!

MsFifers

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

Certainly we want an affectionate cat but not one that has free reign over us or our apartment. We'll have to find some way of introducing and maintaining a balance.

Umm - can I just let you know one thing about cats? They are in charge!! Of EVERYTHING!! You know the saying - dogs have owners, cats have servants - its true!

Once you get your cat - please post back here and let us know how you are getting on! If you have any success in persuading it that is bottom of the order, tell me how you did it!

ps - Can i just check - are you getting the cat just because of the rodent problem?

Whispered

MsFifers wrote: »

You know the saying - dogs have owners, cats have servants - its true!

or - No it's the cats house, I just pay the mortgage.

Jack B. Badd

MsFifers wrote: »

Umm - can I just let you know one thing about cats? They are in charge!! Of EVERYTHING!! You know the saying - dogs have owners, cats have servants - its true!

Once you get your cat - please post back here and let us know how you are getting on! If you have any success in persuading it that is bottom of the order, tell me how you did it!

ps - Can i just check - are you getting the cat just because of the rodent problem?

Yeah, I have a feeling that within a few months there'll be three very stubborn individuals in our house. Compromises may have to be made but I'll let you know if either my OH or myself end up getting our way.

Oh, and we'd been wanting to get a cat or kitten before we saw the rat. We'd moved from a third floor flat on a very busy road to our current one partly because we want the option of having a pet. Seeing the rat just clinched it. I don't expect a professional ratter but if the cat can keep the rodents out of the garden then it'll have earned its supper.

galah

ehm, don't want to dash your hopes, but we have a mouse problem SINCE we got the cats...they tend to bring in live mice, to play...

They haven't brought a rat back yet, but mice and birds make a regular appearance...

If you want to keep the cat exclusively indoors, you MUST provide enough stimulation, and have the time to play with the cat as well. Otherwise, they will take to destroying the house. Also, if you get a cat that is used to the outdoors, be prepared for A LOT of whining if you keep it exclusively inside. That to me is cruel - if you get a cat that was never used to the outside, it should not be a problem and will make a happy cat.

My two cats were used to the outside before I got them, and the first year I tried to keep them indoors out of some sense of responsibility, which was simply cruel (I found them trying to pry open the window at every opportunity...). Now I've resorted to the fact that one day, they might not come back. But at least I'm safe in the knowledge they had a very happy life with access to the outdoors.

If you're away long periods, try to get two cats, so they can keep each other company.

And if you do find a way to keep them off the couch, the bed, the table and generally from totally dominating your life, I would also like to hear the solution ;-)

Good luck ;-)

trio

Curious about one thing - you mentioned that you usually have one small window open. Cats often enter and leave their homes by these small windows - I've even seen them do it via first floor windows if there was a flat roof and a garden wall nearby.

Would you consider allowing your cat to make use of this window to enter and leave as it wishes when you aren't there? Which room is it in? If it's a room you don't want the cat to be in, is there a room like the living room that you can keep the small window open in also, and just keep the door shut when you're not there so it can't go elsewhere in the house?

As said, cats don't tend to do much when home alone. They sleep most of the time. So if the only reasons you don't want a cat inside is because you can't put a cat flap in, because you don't want it in certain rooms and because you're afraid it'll wreck the gaff, I think you could reconsider.

Personally, I think the ideal situation is a cat that can come inside as it wishes, though I wouldn't be someone either who would be so permissive as to allow any pet in all rooms.

forestfruits

carwash_2006 wrote: »

Can you explain please why you reckon it can't be good for them
I don't know of any particular reason why it can't be good for them. I do know that getting run over by a car can't be good for them. Neither is poisoning, getting lost and starving to death, catching FIV or FeLV, being shot or beaten to death by people who consider cats vermin or toys, getting picked up by pest control and being gassed in the back of a van, do you want me to go on?






I am not goin gto get into a big argument about why you should keep the cat inside, all I will say is, assuming you will allow the cat a small period of grace to get used to it's new home and to be spayed or neutered, it will probably be ok for the fairly short period you will have it. All I can hope is that it will find a new home that will allow it inside when it needs to be in and not just on the whim of it's owners, rather than meeting with one of the unpleasant ends listed above.

Its not a natural thing to keep a cat inside 24 hours a day, unless they want to stay in- lets not lose sight of the fact that they are animals! I wouldnt like to be kept inside all day long even for my own safety. Any cat ive ever owned has had a balance between indoor and outdoor and only one of those met his end on the road at the age of 4. All others have lived up to 10 years or have died from unrelated ilnesses.




So long as a cat has a safe warm form of shelter outside of the house such as a shed or sturdy kennel with catflap the cat is perfectly safe and in my experience perfectly happy. Cats are extremely intelligent animals but also are natural hunters and love to hunt and play as much for enjoyment as exercise- I dont think this can be recreated indoors. Having said all that I dont agree with keeping a cat outdoors all the time unless thats the way the cat wants it- a balance is what is needed!


I live in an area where there is a lot of open space, fields etc, if I was in a busier city area I probably would agree and keep him indoors at all times or just not have gotten a cat in the first place

sinorita

Hi,

I recently took in a lovely black kitten who was found wandering around on its own. She was about 2mths at the time and have had her for over a month now. I live in an appartment that i own here in Galway. It's a duplex. I got her vaccined there last week. Up until this i left her inside as she's only a young wee kitten and she hadn't been vaccined etc. Now that she is, i let her out supervised when i get home from work to let her explore etc. She sleeps with me at night. I provide her with empty toilet rolls, old tennis ball, crumpled up tin foil, pieces of string and scratched post to keep her stimulated. She seems happy. I was going to put in a cat flap to let her go in and out as she pleases but as it's in an estate, i'd be worried about her getting knocked down. So i think i'll let her out in the evenings for a couple of hours to have the craic once she's neutered.
My question is where do you get toys to keep her stimulated? i can only imagine the price of toys in pet shops!!
Also, as she's a kitten, she's mad into grabbing and biting(not tearing into flesh!) my arms when i'm lyin in bed etc!! she must be just cryin out for me to play with her

galah

I found zooplus.ie quite reasonable.

Also, invest in a cheap laser pointer - it keeps cats amused for hours, without much effort on your part (just never point it directly into their eyes, for obvious reasons ;-))

Those dangly 'fishing rod' things are quite fun too - you can make it yorself with a small stick, some thin rope, and tie something at the end for the kitten to grab.

Enjoy ;-)

BlackCat2008

sinorita wrote: »

Hi,

I recently took in a lovely black kitten who was found wandering around on its own. She was about 2mths at the time and have had her for over a month now. I live in an appartment that i own here in Galway. It's a duplex. I got her vaccined there last week. Up until this i left her inside as she's only a young wee kitten and she hadn't been vaccined etc. Now that she is, i let her out supervised when i get home from work to let her explore etc. She sleeps with me at night. I provide her with empty toilet rolls, old tennis ball, crumpled up tin foil, pieces of string and scratched post to keep her stimulated. She seems happy. I was going to put in a cat flap to let her go in and out as she pleases but as it's in an estate, i'd be worried about her getting knocked down. So i think i'll let her out in the evenings for a couple of hours to have the craic once she's neutered.
My question is where do you get toys to keep her stimulated? i can only imagine the price of toys in pet shops!!
Also, as she's a kitten, she's mad into grabbing and biting(not tearing into flesh!) my arms when i'm lyin in bed etc!! she must be just cryin out for me to play with her

Zooplus is great for toys

I got a new cat tree recently and they barely even look at it but they still have great fun with the box it came in just cut out some holes, sounds like you've already covered alot for toys already, but a box seems to be a great toy or at leased mine think so xmas is great fun around here with any amount of boxes to play with. If you live near Atlantic home care they do a good range of toys on a stick, but you could just tie some old strips of material to a stick and they'd probably in joy it just a s much if not more.

The biting thats happing is some were between testing your limits and play you just got to make a noise to show her it hurts or wait till she grows out of it

sinorita

Yeh i'll try zooplus. just i'd be worried she'd get bored.
must try the holes in the box and the stick business!! hehe!!

yeh i'll have to start either making a horrible noise to start her associating what she's doing ends with this horrible noise!! ah lord.:)

bigpinkelephant

trio wrote: »

Curious about one thing - you mentioned that you usually have one small window open. Cats often enter and leave their homes by these small windows - I've even seen them do it via first floor windows if there was a flat roof and a garden wall nearby.

Would you consider allowing your cat to make use of this window to enter and leave as it wishes when you aren't there? Which room is it in? If it's a room you don't want the cat to be in, is there a room like the living room that you can keep the small window open in also, and just keep the door shut when you're not there so it can't go elsewhere in the house?

As said, cats don't tend to do much when home alone. They sleep most of the time. So if the only reasons you don't want a cat inside is because you can't put a cat flap in, because you don't want it in certain rooms and because you're afraid it'll wreck the gaff, I think you could reconsider.

Personally, I think the ideal situation is a cat that can come inside as it wishes, though I wouldn't be someone either who would be so permissive as to allow any pet in all rooms.

This is what I do, much handier than a cat flap

Jack B. Badd

MsFifers wrote: »

Once you get your cat - please post back here and let us know how you are getting on! If you have any success in persuading it that is bottom of the order, tell me how you did it!

Well, after spending a bit of time settling into our new apartment, we finally got our cat today from a rescue in Watford She hasn't quite taken over the place just yet but she's having a good wander around for herself. I'll let you know how we get on over the next while. Something tells me we're not going to win this one, though she is going to have to spend some time gallivanting outside to lose weight. She's a wee bit portly...:)

Glowing

Hey what did you call him/her?

If you're keeping the cat inside, you can get indoor-cat food which has less protein I believe than some other foods, it'll help keep their weight down!

Jack B. Badd

She was called Eve by the rescue so we're going to stick with that. She'll be staying inside for the first month or two anyway so I might look into that. Thanks

GeturGun

Hey congrats on your new pet.
Lucky Eve in her new home

GeturGun

Glowing wrote: »

If you're keeping the cat inside, you can get indoor-cat food which has less protein I believe than some other foods, it'll help keep their weight down!

Thanks for that bit of info Glowing. I just googled and Hills do it - I must get that for my two when they're 1