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More like: The Hazards of agnosticism (Spin-off thread)
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13-08-2008 12:05am#1Anybody think it's worth stickying a cautionary thread? This sad story just in today:
http://today.reuters.com/news/ArticleNews.aspx?type=oddlyEnoughNews&storyID=2006-06-05T133715Z_01_L05642927_RTRUKOC_0_US-UKRAINE-LION.xml
The poor guy said: "God will save me, if he exists" that to me sounds like somebody who is not too sure about whether God exists or not, which would make him an agnostic and not somebody who truly believes in God, so the title of this sticky is flawed. It should be re-titled to: "The Hazards of agnosticism"
In any case, it is not a good idea to test God like that. But if you ever find yourself in the unfortunate situation of being thrown to the lions as Daniel was, then my suggestion would be to whisper a prayer to God for deliverance from said unfortunate situation. Then I’m sure He will help you provided your prayer is from the heart and done by faith.
Rule number 1 out here: 'Always!!' no no I mean, 'Never' throw yourself to the lions.
Can’t believe you guys made this a sticky though???
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On the contrary, I'd have said that somebody leaping into a lion's den and expecting to be airlifted out by a mid-eastern deity shows a level of belief that puts every religious poster on boards to shameSoul Winner wrote: »The poor guy said: "God will save me, if he exists" that to me sounds like somebody who is not too sure about whether God exists or not, which would make him an agnostic and not somebody who truly believes in God, so the title of this sticky is flawed.
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On the contrary, I'd have said that somebody leaping into a lion's den and expecting to be airlifted out by a mid-eastern deity shows a level of belief that puts every religious poster on boards to shame
Well it shouldn't really put anyone to shame in fairness. Showing off your "faith" in that manner is just plain old fashioned Stupid! Unless of course God specificaly told him to do it in order to make a point to the on-looking world that He is capable of saving people from such circumstances, which is something the man never claimed happened, which means that the man acted outside and independently of God's will for him. Does that mean that God couldn't have saved him anyway? No, He could have, but why should He? The guy took a stupid pill and paid the ultimate price. The lesson "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" is driven home, hopefully other people will learn and think twice about doing similar stupid acts in the future. God is not a cosmic bellhop, the sooner people who think He is realise this then the safer they'll be from their own stupid actions.0 -
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Soul Winner wrote: »Does that mean that God couldn't have saved him anyway? No, He could have, but why should He? The guy took a stupid pill and paid the ultimate price.
A probably delusional man, has to pay the ultimate price for his 'stupidity' because God has his rules and doesn't like to be tested. In other words your God is less compassionate that the average A&E doctor who will try and save everyone regardless of the stupidity of their own actions?
He so could have cos he's soooooooooo big and powerful.
He could have ... doesn't the fact that he never has give you any pause for thought before saying that so confidently?
It's posters like you whose callous disregard for human life and and infatuation with your big and powerful God remind me daily of the true meaning of Christianity.0 -
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A probably delusional man, has to pay the ultimate price for his 'stupidity' because God has his rules and doesn't like to be tested.
You catch on fast.In other words your God is less compassionate that the average A&E doctor who will try and save everyone regardless of the stupidity of their own actions?
As great as the Doctors we have here in Ireland are, none of them died on a cross for me. You know of any?
Not one of the funnier Monty Python scenes IMO. Although the film over all was quite funny.
This scetch is funnier I think:He could have ... doesn't the fact that he never has give you any pause for thought before saying that so confidently?
Never has? What are you talking about?It's posters like you whose callous disregard for human life and and infatuation with your big and powerful God remind me daily of the true meaning of Christianity.
Oh please, it wasn't me who chose to use this poor guy's story as a sticky thread in order to poke fun at people who believe in the supernatural was it?0 -
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I am trying to see if you can admit the possibility that religion -- as a system which purports to provide guidelines for living -- mislead this unfortunate man into thinking that he could do something that he could not.
I am willing to admit that possibility but we don’t know that do we?This is unconnected with whether or not god exists, or whether the bible's description of god is accurate or not (in the unlikely event he does exist).
Agreed.At some point somebody must have introduced religion to this unfortunate man and then either fanned its growth, or at least, did nothing to stop its growth.
And that of itself is a bad thing because???The end result of which was him climbing, apparently quite calmly, into a lion's den where he was eaten alive.
Objection your honour. Pure speculation and conjecture, not supported by the facts of this case.I blame religion, and religion's propagators, quite squarely for building and selling a decision-making framework within which this kind of sad madness can be considered praiseworthy or even a useful activity.
Now now, I never praised him, nor did I read anyone else praise him for his actions. In fact if you recall it was you who appeared the most ready to praise his actions, see below quotes:robindch wrote:…But he did have the courage of his convictions, so it seems strange to me that you dismiss him, rather than respect him.
And:robindch wrote:On the contrary, I'd have said that somebody leaping into a lion's den and expecting to be airlifted out by a mid-eastern deity shows a level of belief that puts every religious poster on boards to shameThere are many more examples of religion leading people to death, including that of Jesus himself.
You must learn the lesson of what true dedication to a cause or strongly held belief really is. Unless you are willing to lay your life down for what you truly believe in then you are not true beliver in it. Jesus said the there is no greater love than the laying down of one’s life for one’s friends. Jesus did this voluntarily for the world, most of whom were/are His enemies never mind friends. Jesus was not led to death by religion, He said “No man takes my life from me, the shepherd lays His life down.”I recall very few religious people saying, or even hinting, that religion was to blame for misleading the unfortunates concerned.
What I find really curious is what on the surface appears to simply be a case of one individual's act of stupidity now being turned into something that can be blamed on religion. Has any religious organisation claimed responsibility for his actions? Has his family publicly blamed any religious order to which the man might have belonged to? Did he himself say that it was religion that made him do it? No! He acted alone. Why do you automatically assume that this man’s actions were the result of any brainwashing activity on the part of a religious organisation before you know the facts? Now it might be the case that in fact it is true that a cult of some sort brainwashed him, but it wouldn't matter to you either way. Religion will always get it in the neck regardless of what the facts might or might not be. You will never credit it for anything. Why don't you ever harp on about all the good things that come from religion, like charity, helping homeless people, sending missionaries to countries to help its poor to build infrastructure so that they can have a relatively decent living standard, who campaign against evil regimes all over the world and put themselves into the firing line and pay with their lives standing up for the oppressed and unfortunates of this world? You never go on about those kinds of good things that come from religious people.
Do I think that all religious organisations and all religious people are perfect entities? I sure don’t. Some of them are more corrupt and corruptible than non religious organisations but that shouldn’t mean that you tar all them with the same brush. A bit of impartiality is what’s needed me thinks. Judge each case on its merits. This guy acted foolish and paid too high a price for it.0 -
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You must be using the word 'died' in some sort of weird way I've never heard before. My understanding is that God 'died' for 3 days and went to heaven (I guess - though maybe some Christian can clarify exactly where Jesus spent his 'dead days'), then he rose from the dead and went back to heaven. So God's dying seems to involve 3 days in heaven a brief return to earth and then back to heaven. Excuse me if I'm not overwhelmed at this 'sacrifice'.
You are excused. But it wasn't just a normal physical earthly death if He was who He claimed to be in the first place. If that is so then there was an ongoing emptying process before and during His life down here culminating in His death. Total emptying completed and reliance on the Father to raise Him up. A claim repeatedly made in every mention of His death in the New Testament. That He came forth according to the promise of the Father. An emptying of power and ability to deliver Himself from such a self constricted life down here and from ultimate death was invoked as soon as He stepped from Heaven’s glory If He was who He claimed to be then He could have just said "scrap this I'm going home, I do not need this ****". But if He had done that then He wouldn't have provided the way to salvation, which was what He came to do in the first place. To open the door. A door that you either walk through it or you don't. But that's just looking at it from a Christian perspective, which is obviously not the right way to look at it, even though it was Christians who first put forth this story and is what the Christian message is in essence when you get down to brass tax. Anyway there are some who actually believe that Jesus ministered to departed souls during His 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb. If it is in fact true that death could not hold Him, that it was not possible for Him to be holden of it, then its not too far a stretch to believe that He could have ministered to departed souls during this time period and not gone to heaven as you suggest. He didn’t ascend to heaven until after the resurrection.Ahhhhhhhhhhh ... Christians pronouncing on the relative merits of various Monty Python scenes ... this thread is now full of win.
Monty Python movies and sketches are but only one of the many things that Christians like myself are more than capable of making pronouncements about. I am aware that there are so called Christians who believe that if you watch such things you are going to hell. Well they are the same people who don't even understand Matthew 7 that whenever you judge others you will be judged of that very same yourself, so I'm not worried too much about that they say anyway. But yes I love ‘The life of Brian’, still fold up laughing when I watch it
I don’t believe it is a stab at God or Jesus. I believe that you see in it what you want to see. Some see blasphemy and others have a laugh. I have a laugh.I would have thought that was simple. In 2,000 years God has never directly intervened and saved anyone, or perhaps you have some evidence he has?
Like you'd accept any if I had. And even if I had actual video footage of me walking on water you still wouldn't believe it. You’d never credit anything like that as supernatural even if you seen it with your own eyes.
But here's a few stories of modern day miracles (which you will not accept) either:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3782141/
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/julia-sarah-and-katie-miracle-triplets-who-defied-the-odds-1056667.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160189,00.htmlWe've been persecuted for this thread since it started:
Do we like this word “Persecuted”? Bit strong isn’t it?0 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fINh4SsOyBw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
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