More like: The Hazards of agnosticism (Spin-off thread)

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

While we're on the topic, does anyone else think Jesus' sacrifice is no big deal considering he would be ressurected a few days later?

I'd pay money and even buy the pop corn to watch you demonstrate to us all how little of a deal it really was. And that includes enduring a Roman scourging with one of these babies.

Zillah

Yes it is unfalsifiable. Which means its such an irrelevantly useless idea science cannot even deign to take it seriously. While we cannot prove there is no God in a general sense, there is lots of evidence to suggest he's a manmade notion. We can however disprove the existence of any specific God that people claim interacts with the world in a meaningful way. For example, a God who answers prayers. Its been proven that prayers don't do anything, therefore we can conclude that a God who answers prayers does not exist.





I find it kind of funny that the one above line is the only part of the whole post you acknowledged. You have a very flexible sentience.

Zillah

Soul Winner wrote: »

I'd pay money and even buy the pop corn to watch you demonstrate to us all how little of a deal it really was. And that includes injuring a Roman scourging with one of these babies.

So? God personified can endure some physical torture? AMAZING. Millions of people over the years have endured far worse (often at the hands of the Christian church, I'll add). Sure he had a bad death, so do a lot of people. However, everyone else doesn't get to crawl out of their entombment a few days later and show off to their friends.

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

So? God personified can endure some physical torture? AMAZING. Millions of people over the years have endured far worse (often at the hands of the Christian church, I'll add). Sure he had a bad death, so do a lot of people. However, everyone else doesn't get to crawl out of their entombment a few days later and show off to their friends.

Ok I'll buy the pop corn and the sweets, how's that?

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

I find it kind of funny that the one above line is the only part of the whole post you acknowledged. You have a very flexible sentience.

I know, hate that, get it all the time.

Galvasean

Soul Winner wrote: »

But here's a few stories of modern day miracles (which you will not accept) either:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3782141/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/julia-sarah-and-katie-miracle-triplets-who-defied-the-odds-1056667.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160189,00.html

So overcoming the odds is a miracle all of a sudden.
It's a miracle!!!

AtomicHorror

Soul Winner wrote: »

But here's a few stories of modern day miracles (which you will not accept) either:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3782141/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/julia-sarah-and-katie-miracle-triplets-who-defied-the-odds-1056667.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160189,00.html?

Unlikely events are not miracles, they're just unlikely.

I got a royal flush in poker once. Odds are about 250,000:1 of hitting that. Guess how many hands I've played? Hundreds of thousands.

Soul Winner

Galvasean wrote: »

So overcoming the odds is a miracle all of a sudden.
It's a miracle!!!

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." Albert Einstein

I agree, you either see everything as one huge miracle or you see everything as a huge accident that can be explained by natural means which of course would make that "natural" explanation itself an accident also. If it’s all one big cosmic accident then no explanation has any meaning because meaning itself is meaningless and therefore not worth the bother. So even if theists are wrong then it is a complete waste of ‘accidental’ time explaining it to them. Better off going for a pint.

Soul Winner

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Unlikely events are not miracles, they're just unlikely.

Not so. Unlikely events can also be miracles even by your standards because you see miracles as the most unlikely of all events.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

I got a royal flush in poker once. Odds are about 250,000:1 of hitting that. Guess how many hands I've played? Hundreds of thousands.

I got a Royal Flush one time too. Spades. Was on a boat trip to Liverpool when I was about 9 years old. I rarely play poker if ever.

Galvasean

Soul Winner wrote: »

"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." Albert Einstein

I agree, you either see everything as one huge miracle or you see everything as a huge accident that can be explained by natural means which of course would make that "natural" explanation itself an accident also.

Agreed.

Soul Winner wrote: »

If it’s all one big cosmic accident then no explanation has any meaning because meaning itself is meaningless and therefore not worth the bother. So even if theists are wrong then it is a complete waste of ‘accidental’ time explaining it to them. Better off going for a pint.

We need to discuss while having said pint

Soul Winner

Galvasean wrote: »

Agreed.



We need to discuss while having said pint

What are ya havin? My shout!

AtomicHorror

Soul Winner wrote: »

I agree, you either see everything as one huge miracle or you see everything as a huge accident that can be explained by natural means which of course would make that "natural" explanation itself an accident also. If it’s all one big cosmic accident then no explanation has any meaning because meaning itself is meaningless and therefore not worth the bother.

I prefer to find my own meaning! The objective is unverifiable anyway so I figure it's best to run with subjectivism.

Soul Winner wrote: »

So even if theists are wrong then it is a complete waste of ‘accidental’ time explaining it to them. Better off going for a pint.

You may be on to something there... :pac:

AtomicHorror

Soul Winner wrote: »

I got a Royal Flush one time too. Spades.

Snap! What are the chances? 1 in 4... but still.

Soul Winner

Just for the record! I really like you atheists, God put you here for a reason!!!

gramlab

Soul Winner wrote: »

If He was who He claimed to be then He could have just said "scrap this I'm going home, I do not need this ****". But if He had done that then He wouldn't have provided the way to salvation, which was what He came to do in the first place.

Are you saying that the whole master plan was that he had to die to save all of us. If that's true then god arranged his own death which means it wasn't really a sacrifice but a staged and planned sort of 2000 year old suicide by cop/roman i.e he needed them to kill him and made them do it???

Dave147

I love when know it alls online claim to know all God's plans etc. you call it faith, I call it naive.

Actually I don't love it at all..

Flamed Diving

Soul Winner wrote: »

Just for the record! I really like you atheists, God put you here for a reason!!!

Aww, all drunk and loved up!

*hugs*

Dades

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Aww, all drunk and loved up!

Let's hope they'll be as friendly this morning!

robindch

Soul Winner wrote: »

Just for the record! I really like you atheists,

Awwww, that's nice; we love all christians too!

Soul Winner wrote: »

God put you here for a reason!!!

And there's a reason that you think this -- the fun comes in understanding why

Tar.Aldarion

Zillah wrote: »

While we're on the topic, does anyone else think Jesus' sacrifice is no big deal considering he would be ressurected a few days later?

I'd totally give my life for pretty much anything vaguely important if I were the immortal son of God who rises from death. Hell, I'd do it for BBQ weekends. Day 1, Zillah dies and we drink beer. Day 2, we swim in the lake and have burgers. Day 3, we have some light breakfast and Zillah rises again to much applause. Festivities end with a sunset beach party.

After you come back you're not allowed show people that you did and have to disappear into the sky really fastc. :pac:

Zillah

Soul Winner wrote: »

Ok I'll buy the pop corn and the sweets, how's that?

Do you not feel embarrassed when you start an argument, lose and then pretend nothing happened?

Fanny Cradock

By way of clarification, Christians believe that there was more to the crucifixion of Jesus than it being a particularly horrific form of physical punishment. So, unlike your everyday act of nailing someone to a bit of wood and leaving them there until they die, we believe that Jesus also paid the penalty for the sins of every human past, present and future.

robindch

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

So, unlike your everyday act of nailing someone to a bit of wood and leaving them there until they die, we believe that Jesus also paid the penalty for the sins of every human past, present and future.

Yes, but since god is believed to have set up the deal in the first place, it seems curiously superfluous to have oneself killed in fulfillment of a deal one has made with oneself, even if one comes back to life in three days.

Would you not agree?

Zillah

A friend of mine once pointed out that if we were discussing a situation involving a pantheon of Gods, where the laws are enforced by combined might, then Yaweh was being extremely clever using his whole crucifixtion thing to circumvent the rules on humanities' behalf.

As it is he seems like a complete psychopath.

Galvasean

Quick question, when Jesus absolved us all from sin did he go to hell for 3 days?

Dades

robindch wrote: »

Yes, but since god is believed to have set up the deal in the first place, it seems curiously superfluous to have oneself killed in fulfillment of a deal one has made with oneself, even if one comes back to life in three days.

That, to me, is the elephant in the living room of Christianity.

Fanny Cradock

robindch wrote: »

Yes, but since god is believed to have set up the deal in the first place, it seems curiously superfluous to have oneself killed in fulfillment of a deal one has made with oneself, even if one comes back to life in three days.

Would you not agree?

I initially posted to correct a fundamental misunderstanding of the crucifixion. It was never my intent to get into further details of the crucifixion. After all, your point has been already been made on the Christianity forum, later answered by Christians and subsequently rejected by atheists one and all. I'm not entirely sure what further can be said on the matter.

However, to give you a brief answer, there is an atonement to be made for sin - with sin being defined as that which transgresses God's will. The nature of God and the nature of sin means that there is a price to pay - this is a somewhat like a theological equivalent of Newtons 3rd law, I guess. So for a sinful action there much be a reaction to it.

I know how you guys just love it when we Christians lapse into scripture, so here goes.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23

I'm unsure if the italicised section is simply a ruling of God or if it is an unavoidable consequence of God remaining logically consistent with himself - maybe even both.

Galvasean wrote:

Quick question, when Jesus absolved us all from sin did he go to hell for 3 days?

No, I don't believe so. I'm unsure if there is a consensus on the matter (there probably is) but I would have thought that after he died on the cross that was his part done.

Soul Winner

Zillah wrote: »

Do you not feel embarrassed when you start an argument, lose and then pretend nothing happened?

Sorry, when exactly did I start an argument? I simply pointed out that the guy about whom this thread was originally about was possible more agnostic than a true believer as he said that God would save him if He exists. And when did I loose the argument? You go on about me not replying to ALL your points but I get that all the time. Selective answering, it's rife on Boards. In any case, as Fanny has just pointed out, when you do get a Christian explanation to your questions you just reject them anyway so what's the point? But please indulge me, what is it exactly that you think you've won here child?

Zillah

You were arguing that prayer worked, I linked you to a study that clearly showed that prayer doesn't work.

Soul Winner wrote:

You go on about me not replying to ALL your points but I get that all the time. Selective answering, it's rife on Boards.

But teacher everyone else was doing it!

In any case, as Fanny has just pointed out, when you do get a Christian explanation to your questions you just reject them anyway so what's the point?

I reject explanations that don't make sense. If Christian explanations don't make sense thats more your problem than mine. To help you understand, lets use a metaphor. You ask Bob how a certain building was built, he says it was built by magic elves. You point out there's no such thing as magic elves and Bob gets angry saying that you just reject Bob-explanations so why should he bother. You wisely proceed to speak with a sane human being and leave Bob putting food out in the bushes for elves.

The elves are God you see.
I like over explaining metaphors.
You're Bob and I'm you.
Bob believes in elves, aren't you embarrassed for him?

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

After all, your point has been already been made on the Christianity forum, later answered by Christians and subsequently rejected by atheists one and all.

As someone who has asked this question a few times I really wish you guys would stop pretending that you answered it and we are simply refusing to listen to the answer. None of you (Christians) have ever answered it, you simply shift the goal posts on the details, ignoring the actual question. It is the like trying to explain this picture makes sense



by focusing on each other corners in turn but ignoring the whole picture

1 - God requires payment for sin
2 - Jesus paid the payment on behalf of humans
3 - Jesus was sent by God to do so

Each point makes sense on its own, and when ever one of you guys tries to demonstrate the crucification is logical you simply take each point isolated from the others and argue that it makes sense. Which is true, no one is arguing that. Each of the individual statements above is perfectly correct. The failing is when they are all put together as a single picture and one realises that as a whole the story doesn't make sense.