Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

The Angry Atheist?

Options
2

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Really? Why then do so many atheists say life has no meaning? Where's the sense in that? How could life possibly make more sense without God??
    Actually I said the world makes so much more sense without a God.

    ANYWAY...

    Noel, there's a time and a place for this. Much as we enjoy these bursts of discussion, the questions you are asking and the replies you are prompting are derailing the thread.

    Can we return to topic. Thanks in advance.


  • Options
    #33
    4Xcut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭4Xcut


    kelly1 wrote: »
    I think atheists too could be called guilty of ignorance because of their refusal to look beyond the natural world and that which they can see and touch. I've said it before and I'll say it again, all that's needed is a humble leap of faith. Don't expect God to bow to your demands. He needs to be approached with humility and we need to ask for faith because it's not something that comes naturally. Faith is a gift from God to those who genuinely and humbly seek Him.

    ".....
    He puts forth His arm in strength
    and scatters the proud-hearted
    He casts the mighty from their thrones
    And raises the lowly...."

    "....God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble." James 4:6

    Faith is defined as a belief that is not based on proof.

    If someone wants to argue for the existance of god based on legitimate theological arguments, that's fine. There are some arguments put forth by philosophers over the years that aren't that absurd - just hinge on some ideas that we cannot prove such as time not having an infinite regression, etc.

    However, faith is not a justification. It is just not. Example:

    There is no evidence to prove that the defendent was at home where he says he was and not at the scene of the crime. However, the jury let him off because they have faith in him. In other words, they believe him without any evidence to back up his claims.

    Goduznt Xzst - you claim to not involve yourself with any religious customs. Do you refuse to give christmas presents, wish people a merry christmas, insist that no-one give you a christmas present?


  • Options
    #34
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Has an atheist ever actually said to you that life has no meaning Kelly?
    Not in person but several did in this thread:- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055135511
    Wicknight wrote: »
    That seems to be what believers say being an atheist must be like because they cannot imagine life having meaning or purpose that isn't assigned to it by some supernatural boogie man. It always reminds me of my friends who had to be told what they wanted to do in college by their parents because they were so used to having everything decide for them. Its like some people can't find their own purpose in life or take ownership of their own destiny.
    A person may decide what the purpose of life is but that doesn't mean there isn't another true purpose which they're not aware of.

    I think that enough digression from me for one day.


  • Options
    #35
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    I have always said that life without an afterlife has the ultimate meaning. Eternal life has absolutely no value.


  • Options
    #36
    axer
    Registered Users Posts: 5,517 ✭✭✭axer


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Faith is a gift from God to those who genuinely and humbly seek Him.
    Faith is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard of. It is such a bad arguement.

    To answer the OP's questions:
    1. I am not angry but I do not like anyone preaching to me unless they have tangible proof.
    2. Arguing with theists is a waste of time because usually they say "have faith". How do you argue against such a stupid statement.
    3. I don't preach what I believe (99.99% chance that there is higher being(s) or beings we cannot detect out there - 100% sure that there is no christian god) because that puts me in the same boat as those theist preachers. A belief is something that should be personal and something that the person themselves should come up with (unless there is proof to suggest something else is right). It is not something that should be forced upon someone or expected of someone.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Not in person but several did in this thread:- http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055135511

    If you read that thread properly you will see that people are saying that there is no externally determined meaning of life.

    That is not the same thing as saying life has no meaning. And it is a pretty good thing as well in my opinion, who wants someone, even a god, to be telling them what they think the purpose of their life should be (well, except for religous types who need someone else to tell them :pac:)
    kelly1 wrote: »
    A person may decide what the purpose of life is but that doesn't mean there isn't another true purpose which they're not aware of.
    Certainly not, but it does mean their life is not without meaning.

    And even if someone else decided that your life was to have a different meaning, who are they to decide what meaning your life should or should not have. Who is God to tell someone the purpose of their own life. If God is the loving deity you claim he is it seems strange that he would dictate the purpose of peoples lives like they are computer game characters.


  • Options
    #38
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    axer wrote: »
    2. Arguing with theists is a waste of time because usually they say "have faith". How do you argue against such a stupid statement.

    You present scientific fact, backed by evidence.
    And where you lack the scientific knowledge yourself you present the research of members of the scientific community you have faith in.


  • Options
    #39
    larryone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭larryone


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    Your point was not in regards to action and inaction it was in regards to showing respect and not showing it. You are saying that it is ok to not show respect when an action is required. This I find hypocritical. I would view changing from talking to being silent as an action on my part.

    Your argument falls apart because it hinges on how noteworthy your sign of respect is. If it won't be noticed then you do not need to do it. This has more to do with your feelings of societal acceptance than your adherance out of respect as respect clearly is not your motivations for remaining silent.

    You've missed my point. I would remain silent out of respect for the people around me. Not for some dead dude I may or may not have known. If I encountered a whole bunch of people observing silence for something, I'm not going to automagically have respect for whatever cause they're venerating. But I will have respect for their wish to venerate it, and by breaking the silence I would be showing disrespect to them.

    So it's not about how noteworthy the sign of respect is. If I was at a funeral for some reason, I would switch off my phone. Not out of respect for whoever is lying in the box up there, but out of respect to those around me who wish for silence to be kept.

    Not doing so is a display of ignorance, intolerance, and disrespect. Not for dead people, for live people.


  • Options
    #40
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    And where you lack the scientific knowledge yourself you present the research of members of the scientific community you have faith in.
    At which point you are told that you simply hold a different type of faith...

    ... prompting you pick up the nearest blunt object.


  • Options
    #41
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    4Xcut wrote: »
    Goduznt Xzst - you claim to not involve yourself with any religious customs. Do you refuse to give christmas presents, wish people a merry christmas, insist that no-one give you a christmas present?

    Correct, I do not recognise Christian holidays, as much as you do not recognise the holidays of numerous other world religions. I would not wish someone a merry Christmas, I would however say something like "Have a good holiday". I would give presents to people if they are leaving for a long time, have accomplished something, have moved to a new house... etc

    Also, kelly1, I have absolute faith that you are completely wrong, which in fact proves that you are wrong and will always be wrong so there is no need for further discussion.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Dades wrote: »
    At which point you are told that you simply hold a different type of faith...

    ... prompting you pick up the nearest blunt object.

    Indeed you can only educate those who wish to be educated, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

    It reminds me of that documentary posted a while back of a tour of a natural museum by some creationist, when asked why the curator allowed these people to tour his museum giving lectures.

    His argument was that by at least exposing people to a contrary view some of them might become enlighten and see the error in what they where been taught.


  • Options
    #43
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    larryone wrote: »
    I would remain silent out of respect for the people around me....

    So it's not about how noteworthy the sign of respect is.

    Again there is this contradiction. You remain silent purely because if you don't the people around you will notice and view it as a sign of disrespect. Yet you then say it is not about how noteworthy the sign is? Clearly it is!

    My point is that you have a line in regards to how far you'd go to show respect, you don't have an issue with remaining still and being silent, but anything that would require any action from you wouldn't engage in, regardless of how disrespectful this would be to the people around you. I'm saying that, yes, the people around me might view it as disrespectful, but that is their problem for holding a sign of respect in a public space. Just as you wouldn't engage in any signs of respect that require action, I wouldn't engage in any signs of respect I don't agree with.


  • Options
    #44
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    i find thge whole conncept of faith infuriating

    i find the idea that once people stray from organised religions they feel / are potrayed to feel that they still believe but that are not into oraginised religion infurating

    also the belief in alternatiuve "magics" such as homeopathy tarot etc

    all ij all i feel that there are many things that people believe that are complete fallaicy

    but i can't spell so what would i know

    there seemsto me to be no belifit upsetting these sheep that wander throught life with their strange ideas they dont wanna listen they just wanna believe what they believe so unless someone starts on religion i let it wash over me

    its nice to be nice


  • Options
    #45
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    Just as you wouldn't engage in any signs of respect that require action, I wouldn't engage in any signs of respect I don't agree with.
    There's an obvious difference between not observing a moment's silence, and not participating by way of a positive action.

    Let me ask you this. If you were on holidays in say, India, and you turned up at a Hindu temple just as they were about to say a silent prayer to some local god, would you observe it?

    Or is your position, as I suspect, a purely indignant response to a 'forced' catholic upbringing?


  • Options
    #46
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    Dades wrote: »
    Let me ask you this. If you were on holidays in say, India, and you turned up at a Hindu temple just as they were about to say a silent prayer to some local god, would you observe it?

    I thought the point that he was originally trying to make was in forcing religious observance (nothing as tacky as a prayer - but let's all hang our heads in 'silence') in secular/public settings.

    Obviously everyone has the right to gather in private places and expect some form of privacy and respect in those places, and as a guest in those places (where you voluntarily entered and are free to leave) I can't see how anyone could argue you shouldn't be respectful and obey the rules in this context.

    When it's imposed on you in a non-religious or public setting then it's more difficult, I guess most would go along with it, I wouldn't but then that's just me. For example if I have left RTE1 on at 6pm and the Angelus comes on, I certainly wouldn't stop what I'm doing no matter who's around at the time.


  • Options
    #47
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    pH wrote: »
    For example if I have left RTE1 on at 6pm and the Angelus comes on, I certainly wouldn't stop what I'm doing no matter who's around at the time.

    Does anyone?? Apart from those strange people in the tv angelus??

    What about grottoes? I saw kids being given out to by a stranger passing by who didn't like them climbing all over the rocks the statue was on.


  • Options
    #48
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Malari wrote: »
    Does anyone?? Apart from those strange people in the tv angelus??

    What about grottoes? I saw kids being given out to by a stranger passing by who didn't like them climbing all over the rocks the statue was on.

    i uesd to go out with a girl whose family did

    it was wierd

    and yes i shut the fek up cos its there thing and why would i bother


  • Options
    #49
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Dades wrote: »
    Let me ask you this. If you were on holidays in say, India, and you turned up at a Hindu temple just as they were about to say a silent prayer to some local god, would you observe it?
    pH wrote: »
    I thought the point that he was originally trying to make was in forcing religious observance (nothing as tacky as a prayer - but let's all hang our heads in 'silence') in secular/public settings.

    Thanks pH, yes that is entirely my point. Just like how I would not speak or talk on my phone in a cinema, I would not enter a church and speak aloud during a mass, I put on trousers that cover the knee also if the Church i'm entering requires it. My point is that religions, and various other instances, such as a funeral, require a certain decorum in a private sense, but in a public sense I do not recognise a forced silence.


  • Options
    #50
    all the stars
    Registered Users Posts: 1,058 ✭✭✭all the stars


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    My questions I guess are:

    1. Are you an angry atheist?
    2. Do you argue with believers and why, when you know any logical argument you make can be easily be refuted by the believer merely saying the word "faith"?
    3. Do you think it is the duty of an Atheist to reason with and convert the religious?

    1) no im not angry. fairly mellow most of the time.

    2) only when they start with me, or if something riduculously dumb gets said. . . . and continues being said...

    3) No (im more agnostic) believe what you want just leave me alone. dont be tryin to force your stuff on others, thats also how i feel about celebrities - why always start into god and all that at the awards? many of your fans arent catholic/ scientologist/ mental. Keep it to yourself. your religion - your descretion.


  • Options
    #51
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    My point is that religions, and various other instances, such as a funeral, require a certain decorum in a private sense, but in a public sense I do not recognise a forced silence.
    You're right (as is pH), I didn't mean my hypothetical situation to sneak into the religious realm. But if I can beat this point to death - what about minute's silences at football matches?

    I was at the Manchester Derby this year on the anniversary of the Munich thing, and you could've heard a pin drop.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    Dades wrote: »
    You're right (as is pH), I didn't mean my hypothetical situation to sneak into the religious realm. But if I can beat this point to death - what about minute's silences at football matches?

    I was at the Manchester Derby this year on the anniversary of the Munich thing, and you could've heard a pin drop.

    A football stadium is a secular arena so, no I wouldn't feel obliged to stay silent. However given the highly emotive nature of sports and their irrational sense of importance on the outcome of matches, national anthems and customs of a given team I probably would remain silent for fear of people taking offense to the point of physically attacking me.

    The behaviour of people who faithully follow a team can be termed religious and their reactions to matters of respect are identical to that of actual religious people. A stadium to a fan can be no different than a church to a follower.


  • Options
    #53
    DenMan
    Registered Users Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭DenMan


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    A football stadium is a secular arena so, no I wouldn't feel obliged to stay silent. However given the highly emotive nature of sports and their irrational sense of importance on the outcome of matches, national anthems and customs of a given team I probably would remain silent for fear of people taking offense to the point of physically attacking me.

    The behaviour of people who faithully follow a team can be termed religious and their reactions to matters of respect are identical to that of actual religious people. A stadium to a fan can be no different than a church to a follower.


    Almost 80,000 people in an arena showing respect for the players who died. Who is to say they are observing a religious event. Just showing respect for the deceased footballers, nothing more. You don't have to be a believer to do that, an Atheist can still have some respect while retaining who they are. That is just plain ridiculus. A football fan is just passionate about their team, nothing more. The same would be said of fans of a particular music genre, film tastes etc. An Atheist/believer going to a gig to see their favourite band live is simply following their tastes and enjoying being themselves. Surely you are passionate about things in your life? A stadium to a fan is just a portal to support their team, nothing more.


  • Options
    #54
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Malari wrote: »
    Does anyone?? Apart from those strange people in the tv angelus??

    I was once in a pub in Sligo. Everyone fell silent when the Angelus came on. I think they were having me on (as a Dub) because later when I told a mate of mine who is from Sligo he said that never happens.
    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    A football stadium is a secular arena

    Those who follow football religiously, at least they can see their Gods.


  • Options
    #55
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Galvasean wrote: »
    I was once in a pub in Sligo. Everyone fell silent when the Angelus came on. I think they were having me on (as a Dub) because later when I told a mate of mine who is from Sligo he said that never happens.
    Tigger wrote: »
    i uesd to go out with a girl whose family did

    it was wierd

    and yes i shut the fek up cos its there thing and why would i bother

    Wow, never came across this. I don't think I'd be able to keep a straight face. It wouldn't stop me from speaking over it.


  • Options
    #56
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Malari wrote: »
    Wow, never came across this. I don't think I'd be able to keep a straight face. It wouldn't stop me from speaking over it.

    Suffice to say me and my friends who witnessed this stayed quiet during (we were quite creeped out TBH, felt like something out of the Wicker Man). We finished our drinks quickly and left. We still laugh about it to this day.


  • Options
    #57
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Suffice to say me and my friends who witnessed this stayed quiet during (we were quite creeped out TBH, felt like something out of the Wicker Man). We finished our drinks quickly and left. We still laugh about it to this day.

    If I had enough booze in me I might be tempted to take my compass out, locate east, throw a rug on the floor and proceed with a few bows and mumbles. :p


  • Options
    #58
    larryone
    Registered Users Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭larryone


    Seeing a muslim praying in a pub would be a little odd.


  • Options
    #59
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Seeing an atheist praying would be even weirder!


  • Options
    #60
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Malari wrote: »
    Seeing an atheist praying would be even weirder!
    Unless they're in a foxhole, of course.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Malari wrote: »
    Seeing an atheist praying would be even weirder!
    But very pleasing in the eyes of God! :)


Advertisement