BJ Botha for Ulster finally confirmed

Jigsaw

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/my_club/ulster/7560715.stm

BJ Botha has signed a three year deal with Ulster. He was interviewed in Belfast earlier today. I think this is a fantastic addition to Ulster whose defensive frailties were all too obvious last season.

Overall I think the signings have been good but it was a shame to let go of Neil Best and Tommy Bowe in particular.

zAbbo

Almost sounds like he's coming over on the jolly for his holidays, and to give his son a visa.

Good addition though.

I think they'll miss Bowe, and to a lesser extent Wilkson & Best.

damnyanks

Ah sure they all do that anyways. Instead of temping for 6 months and going back packing around Europe he'll play rugby and backpack. Should be great

Tim Robbins

damnyanks wrote: »

Ah sure they all do that anyways. Instead of temping for 6 months and going back packing around Europe he'll play rugby and backpack. Should be great

Anybody else notice that Ulster seem to have a good nak of getting South African's over. They seem to like the Ulster or the Northern Irish culture?

toomevara

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Northern Irish culture?

Ah yes the glorious and manifold attractions of Norn Irish 'culture' a phrase which, for oxymoronic piquancy, must rank up there with 'Garda intelligence'...ahem...

The mysterious attraction of Ulster rugby for Saffies may be summed up more along the lines of the immortal Mrs. Merton's question to Debbie McGee..."So Debbie what first attracted you to millionaire Paul Daniels?". Its all about the money...

thehighground

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Anybody else notice that Ulster seem to have a good nak of getting South African's over. They seem to like the Ulster or the Northern Irish culture?

No more so than Munster who have Shaun Payne and have had Trevor Halstead recently and of course Leinster had Ollie Le Roux last year. Probably more to do with more SA's moving North (like the Kiwis) to make a few bob up here. The Kiwis have now monopolised the Munster market, the Wallabies Leinster and the Boks Ulster. The Interpros could turn into an 'Irish Tri Nations'. Connacht would probably identify with Argentina

A very good signing for Ulster - having a world cup winner in their midst will give the team a big confidence boost as they need it after the season they just had. He has signed for 3 years, is relatively young and if he does as well as any of the above mentioned SAs, Ulster have a gem.

RuggieBear

3 year contract is good too.

[Jackass]

It's great to have him playing here, the 2 world cup winning props play in Ireland. That says a lot about how the club game is developing over here and it's great that Irish teams are able to compete at the top level when it comes to getting players.

I think Ulster could be a force to be reckonded with this year, both in challenging for the ML and also, conisdering the group they got, making it to the HEC quarter finals.

Would be a great achievement. And with Williams on board and some very decent signings it looks bright for Ulster.

Tim Robbins

[Jackass] wrote: »

It's great to have him playing here, the 2 world cup winning props play in Ireland. That says a lot about how the club game is developing over here

I'd be on the other side. It's further evidence we can't produce our own players and our club games is in bits.

All this signing of foreign lads might be great for maximizing chances in the Heineken Cup but we just end up shooting ourselves in foot.

Example.
Munster could have played Carney, Lewis, Earls, Murphy and not got rid of Touhy last year. They may not have won the Heineken Cup but those players would have progressed. The IRFU have just forked up 3 million to Munster for the stadium redevelopment alone. Munster have done great winning two H Cups but most of their team (Irish players) still come from the amatuer era in the AIL, not that many have come through the academy in the last 5 years.

Now before anyone accuses me anti-Munster it's the same with Leinster. Yes they won a Magners league but that meant Whitaker instead of Willis / Keane, Contemponi instead of Sexton. The starting team for next season will only be 2 / 3 Irish. The mathematical conclusion of this is that out of 3 provincial teams (excluding Connaught for the sake of argument) we only have two players for each position. That's ridiculous considering the amount of money being pumped into this sport here.

The sad reality is we have loads of players who are limbo. Too good for AIL and not good enough for the provinces. This means if you're a very good AIL player, the chances are you'll end up in limbo and not developing.

Again mathematically, if the career of the average professional player is 10 years, this would mean for an international squad of 30. We'd need to be producing 3 players every year who up to the standard of being in that squad.

Even higher, when you factor in that probability that some players produced will be in the same position. It really means you need about 6 new players every year who are capable of international Rugby. That means the provinces should be producing 2 new every year or have not really done their job.

They're not.

Stev_o

Id agree with Tim there its also really really bad sight seeing someone like Touhy who was arguably our best wing for the CC impress everyone and still end up playing in ND1 in England. I thought Ulster SHOULD of signed him after Bowe moved on but no they'd rather buy a Fijian :rolleyes:

[Jackass]

Ah I agree Tim, I didn't mean it in the sense of the overall Irish game, I just mean that of the cream of club rugby and world players, we're as capable of attracting the best players in the world as much as anybody else. Which is a first in Irish sport and an exciting time.

I don't think there is any harm in 4 or 5 foreign players in any squad as long as they are world class (or as good as can be gotten) and we don't have average players in the way and I think that's the way it's shaping up now with signings only being of top quality. (although some of the poor players still linger in squads, but that's a thing of the past imo).

I do agree as well there is a limbo stage for Irish players. I don't understand why there isn't a "loan" system where we can send players to GP or Connacht (:o) to develop and bring them back in.

Or alternatively have a competition in between AIL and Provence. i.e. A magners league "A" competition or even a "A" HEC or European league. The GP already has a fairly decent shadow "A" league that is very competetive.

Stev_o

[Jackass] wrote: »

Ah I agree Tim, I didn't mean it in the sense of the overall Irish game, I just mean that of the cream of club rugby and world players, we're as capable of attracting the best players in the world as much as anybody else.

Tbh its probably more to do with the money in the NH at the moment then anything else SH lads want a piece of the cake rather then a few caps and then be bombarded by local press back at home for bad Tri Nations RWC etc.
Why anyone would want to join a team that struggled for one win in their HC and were rescued from last position in the ML is beyond me but hey money buys props alot of food i guess

Tim Robbins

Stev_o wrote: »

Tbh its probably more to do with the money in the NH at the moment then anything else SH lads want a piece of the cake rather then a few caps and then be bombarded by local press back at home for bad Tri Nations RWC etc.

I think your point about money is very important.

For 400K you get yourself one decent import for a province or you get (I would imagine) at least 8 development officers to develop the sport which could help smaller clubs with their coaching and set up clubs where there are none.

Or you could put the money into making sure clubs had decent facilities and floodlights for training.

Tallaght has the population of Limerick. There is a Rugby program out there, and lads that end up showing promise head up to Mary's or Terenure.

But with a bit more money put into it, it would have huge potential.

They've no club house, weight rooms, just a pitch by Tymon park. For a few yo yo, you'd have a small club house, weights rooms, decent floodlights etc.

We've got to take some leaves out the best grass roots organisation in the world the G.A.A. and aim to get the best grass roots Rugby set up in the world.

The youths and schools system could be rejigged so that they don't clash with each other. Simple example would be scapping youths U18 as they clash with SCT which is usually U18. Change it to U17 and U19.

[Jackass]

I agree 100%. Grass roots and development is essential to the game and a large chunk of resources should be ear markd for this, co-funded with local councils etc. where possible.

At the same time I don't see whay we cant have both. I know that Ollie Le Roux at Leinster had a massive impact on the front row last season and the difference in Stan Wright was incredable, a different player through Le Roux's influence (I really hope we bring him back into the set up asap.)

Think of what the likes of Healy could learn from a world cup winning prop in the form of CJ.

I think at the top level, not only do these guys make a massive impact on the quality of the side and chances of ompeting at the top level, I also think bringing in the best in the world help develop the players that are already there.

As I said, as long as the numbers are kept to a limit and they are only of the highest quality, I think it will be a great thing for the attractiveness of Irish sides to other players, the performance will be of a much higher standard, it will attract fans, bring in extra revenue as success breeds success and also they can help develop the players coming through in the senior squad and I think the impact they make is also very important too to the survival of the Irish sides at the top level.

If we stick to only 1 top class foreign player or around that, the simple fact is we wont be able to develop the players to compete with the cream of England & France + their money + their choice of the finest players in the world from down under and the game would eventually die here as domestic soccer did eventually (not so long ago, late 70's up through the early to mid 80's, 30,000+ were going to FAI cup finals...some teams would be lucky to get that through the gates in an entire season)

Stev_o

[Jackass] wrote: »

Think of what the likes of Healy could learn from a world cup winning prop in the form of CJ.

But then the arguement is that he could be learning a hell of a lot more from playing the games CJ will end up playing. I mean learning from a pro is great and all but its not like Leinster dont have scrummaging specialists etc he could learn alot more from actually playing more games

Tim Robbins

Stev_o wrote: »

But then the arguement is that he could be learning a hell of a lot more from playing the games CJ will end up playing. I mean learning from a pro is great and all but its not like Leinster dont have scrummaging specialists etc he could learn alot more from actually playing more games

+1
You learn more from good technical coaches not other players who are keeping you out of the team. Knoop was Irish qualified and how much game time did he get last year?

Our system is failing if our best Irish qualifed players, aren't getting game type of the highest level. Leinster and Ulster importing props does not solve their underlying problem that their current structures aren't producing players for these positions. Dito Munster and backs.

Remember, our teams have a major advantage w.r.t. the Heineken Cup in that
a) they are practically guarenteed qualification every year.
b) they don't have to worry about relegation from their domestic leagues (in some cases they don't have to worry about their domestic league at all, their managers, players etc are n't judged by it.)
c) they play considerably less games.

So, if an Irish team is pound for pound the same as an English team or French team, the chances are the Irish team will do more favourable in the H Cup and we can just delude ourselves that bit more.

I'd like to see real goals for grassroots Rugby:

X number of clubs to have floodlights
Y number of clubs to have weight rooms
Z number of clubs to have access to expert coaches to help the volunteers who have a clue about center or fullback but not an *ss how to run a lineout.

Finally, we assess ourselves by how many people are active in the sport.
That would mean coaches, players, refs and fans. Not just how we do in the H Cup or international level.

Stev_o

Lastly lets just compare the NH squads to SH. With all of the SH teams(well up into recently) have had policy's of only having players who can go onto play for the nation specific to that club now okay you have a few exceptions with Island nations players but nothing on the scale of what the NH has on offer with foreign players.

This policy means each club is developing talent in every position for the host nation aswell as giving those players extremely valuable game time. It shows a confidence in those clubs to have policy;s like that they feel confident that they can develop talent that can compete at S14 level. Now okay the result is that the S14 is nowhere on par to the NH competitions but that said you dont see the SH teams suffer at international level where the NH do.

Danger_Dave

We wont see BJ for a good while, probably December maybe even January. He's expecting the birth of his child and im sure he'll take some time off, before he comes over to lose with ulster every week