NTSA withdraws from SSAI

Red Renard

Target shooting SSAI Membership.

The NTSA regret to announce that it has withdrawn from the SSAI. This decision was not reached lightly, but after careful consideration of the resources expended against very limited returns. It was felt that these resources would be better directed towards the NTSA's own core activities. The committee of the NTSA wish to thank all the SSAI committee members with whom they have worked closely over the years and of course will continue to work with within the framework of the FCP.

It also has been rumored the NRAI have also Withdrawn.

Sikamick

Red Renard wrote: »

Target shooting SSAI Membership.

The NTSA regret to announce that it has withdrawn from the SSAI. This decision was not reached lightly, but after careful consideration of the resources expended against very limited returns. It was felt that these resources would be better directed towards the NTSA's own core activities. The committee of the NTSA wish to thank all the SSAI committee members with whom they have worked closely over the years and of course will continue to work with within the framework of the FCP.

It also has been rumored the NRAI have also Withdrawn.

_________________________________________________________________


Red Renard have you any idea as to what happened and why.


Michael O'Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club.

Sparks

Thread is temporarily closed. Just give us a few minutes folks, we'll explain then.

Sparks

Okay folks, the mods have been discussing this for a while (some of us had an inkling it might be coming and we do occasionally discuss contingency plans for such events). We're reopening the thread for discussion now, but there are a few ground rules:

• Firstly, this is the only thread on this topic. I'll retitle it so it's clear what it's about, but all other threads or posts on this topic found in any other thread will wind up merged into here.
• The Charter is in full force here and will be actively enforced, especially the parts relating to being civil to one another and the part requesting you to use the Report Post button rather than moderating the forum yourself. Before you post, reread it, even if you've been posting here for years. We're not kidding.
• Once you've reread the Charter, reread the post where it was explained why this forum was shut down for a while a few months back, and then reread DeVore's post regarding the NGBs and posting on this forum which we are now stickying for as long as it is needed, and then reread DeVore's sticky on allegations against named individuals. All these are still in force, and once you've reread them you'll know where the mods are coming from (and hopefully, you'll agree).
• There are aspects to this that are fair game; those are the aspects where shooters on the ground are wondering how this affects their sport on a day-to-day basis. There are also aspects which will get posts edited or deleted and posters infracted or banned; those are the aspects where anonymous first-time posters try to get digs into people just because they think they can. The former are safe; the latter are going to be severely policed by the mods. There are some gray areas in between, but if you're straying into a gray area, the onus is on you to do so from as impersonal a point of view as you can. We don't want to have to delete or edit or infract or ban people, honestly, but we cannot risk the forum again just so someone can anonymously blame someone for something. There are genuine concerns amongst shooters that we could use this forum to alleviate and addressing those has to be our priority here.

Thread reopened.

Would it be possible to get a list of oganisation who have quit the SSAI?

Will this mean that there are no more carding grants for NTSA shooters?

bunny shooter

Suggestion: Mods with a vested interest should stand back and allow impartial Mods to Mod this thread ?

Sparks

Deleted User wrote: »

Would it be possible to get a list of oganisation who have quit the SSAI?

Just the NTSA. The NRAI have some serious issues but have not formally withdrawn. The rep for the NASRPC has quit but the NASRPC has not formally withdrawn; I don't think they've even met to discuss it yet.

Will this mean that there are no more carding grants for NTSA shooters?

No. Carding grants are between the ISC and the shooter directly. The NGB status is meant to be irrelevant according to the ISC. The NTSA is going to seek independent recognition of course, but the existing grants are not affected under ISC rules.

bunny shooter wrote: »

Suggestion: Mods with a vested interest should stand back and allow impartial Mods to Mod this thread ?

1) What vested interests?
2) What partial behaviour have you seen?

bunny shooter

There are two Mods here who are members of NTSA. There are two who aren't. I suggest those who are members should stand back. There has been trouble here before where Mods were too involved in the subject matter. Impartiality is needed here. That's my suggestion.

bunny shooter

Are we seeing the fragmentation or total destruction of the only semblence of a nationally representative shooting organisation we had in this country ?

Sparks

For a start, myself and IRLConor are ordinary members of the NTSA. We shoot in NTSA matches, ergo, we're members. Neither of us are on the committee. Second, you'd have to excuse any SSAI members, and you'd also have to excuse any IPSA members, and basicly, by the time you're done excusing, you'd have noone left. So no, it's not going to happen. All four mods are watching this thread. If you really can't live with that, go to HelpDesk and make your case there.

Secondly, the rules we've laid out above are determined by the admins of the site, and they specificly prohibit getting a dig in.

Thirdly, the areas we laid out for discussion above are about how this affects shooters on the ground. Zara asked the kind of questions we were talking about. Impartiality is intrinsic in those areas. The areas where you'd have to make an effort to be impartial are verboten anyway.

Vegeta

bunny shooter wrote: »

There are two Mods here who are members of NTSA. There are two who aren't. I suggest those who are members should stand back. There has been trouble here before where Mods were too involved in the subject matter. Impartiality is needed here. That's my suggestion.

Beilieve me bunny if the lads break the rules I will be getting out the ban hammer just like I would for any other user.

and passing it to a cmod

EDIT: and I'd expect the same if I stepped out of line

On a side note who better to discuss how the change effects shooters in the NTSA, than shooters in the NTSA.

This is a Q&A thread not a "Its Mr. Xs fault" "No you're wrong, you're in the ABC, of course you'd think that"

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

Are we seeing the fragmentation or total destruction of the only semblence of a nationally representative shooting organisation we had in this country ?

No, we're not. We're seeing the NTSA leaving, which it had to do if the IPSA was to join. And don't go down the politics road please.
Also, the only thing we have that comes close to a national representation for shooters is the FCP, which is not affected by this.

Sparks

To give some sense of perspective here, by the way, I was talking to the captain of DURC yesterday about this and he'd only heard of the SSAI once before and had no idea of what they did. And he is more involved than the vast majority of ordinary shooters in the club. And I've never gone to a WTSC AGM where the the SSAI was mentioned and didn't have to be explained in detail. The ordinary shooter on the ground just doesn't know or care about the SSAI. You're doing well if they know their own NGB, let alone any other group.

There are those who are directly affected, it's true; hence this thread. But they're not the majority.

dresden8

Sparks wrote: »

No, we're not. We're seeing the NTSA leaving, which it had to do if the IPSA was to join.

I don't know the background to this. Why did they have to leave if the IPSA was to join?

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

............ you'd have to excuse any SSAI members, and you'd also have to excuse any IPSA members.....

Only if they were Mods here is my suggestion.

Anyway. I made it, you considered it, you declined it, end of .....

Cheers

Its an ISSF rule, the target shooting NGB can't be in the same organisation as any Practical Pistol NGB

Rovi

Sparks wrote: »

bunny shooter wrote: »

Suggestion: Mods with a vested interest should stand back and allow impartial Mods to Mod this thread ?

1) What vested interests?
2) What partial behaviour have you seen?

Let's not go down this road folks.

The 'Report Post' button is there for a reason; if anyone see something they consider to be 'vested interest' or 'partiality', use the button. All the Shooting mods and the Sports CMods will be notified and it can be dealt with from there.

This is a sensitive subject and many people have legitimate concerns about it, but please bear the content of post #4 in mind and consider the content of your posts carefully before hitting the 'Submit' button.

Sparks

Deleted User wrote: »

Its an ISSF rule, the target shooting NGB can't be in the same organisation as any Practical Pistol NGB

Exactly correct. Several ISSF member federations have come a cropper to this - and were derecognised as a sanction. If that happened here, it would be even worse, because in Ireland, ISSF recognition is divided between the shotgun and the rifle/pistol bodies. If either of them is derecognised for any reason, the recognition devolves to the other in full, and cannot be restored.

In other words, if the NTSA was derecognised, they'd have to have the ICPSA derecognised in order to send a team to any international event ever again. Obviously that's not something that's gonna happen. So they would have have to have left anyway when the IPSA came in.

dresden8

Any particular reason or just a nasty little turf war?

thehair

Also, the only thing we have that comes close to a national representation for shooters is the FCP, which is not affected by this.[/QUOTE]
F-C-P -I HOPE NOT A LOT OF GOOD WORK DONE A LOT MORE WORK NEEDED

riflehunter77

Red Renard wrote: »

Target shooting SSAI Membership.

The NTSA regret to announce that it has withdrawn from the SSAI. This decision was not reached lightly, but after careful consideration of the resources expended against very limited returns. It was felt that these resources would be better directed towards the NTSA's own core activities. The committee of the NTSA wish to thank all the SSAI committee members with whom they have worked closely over the years and of course will continue to work with within the framework of the FCP.

It also has been rumored the NRAI have also Withdrawn.

Lads would it be possible to put up the full title once instead of the abbreviations ( NTSA) for the viewers on this thread who are not invoved in target shooting ?? True my own ignorance I dont have a clue what the NTSA is .

Our man in Havana

NTSA= National Target Shooting Association
SSAI= Shooting Sports Association of Ireland

Sparks

dresden8 wrote: »

Any particular reason or just a nasty little turf war?

For the ISSF/IPSC hassles? Tt's a big turf war over olympic status for IPSC shooting, way up above our pay grades so to speak.

Sparks

riflehunter77 wrote: »

Lads would it be possible to put up the full title once instead of the abbreviations ( NTSA) for the viewers on this thread who are not invoved in target shooting ?

I just tried. There's not enough room in the system to have the title without the abbreviations
Says something, that does...

Rovi

Sparks wrote: »

We're seeing the NTSA leaving, which it had to do if the IPSA was to join.

In fairness to all concerned, the NTSA statement makes no mention whatsoever of any other shooting organisation (excepting the SSAI, obviously), and clearly says: "This decision was not reached lightly, but after careful consideration of the resources expended against very limited returns. It was felt that these resources would be better directed towards the NTSA's own core activities."
Unless and until NTSA or any other organisation makes further official public statements on the matter, we really shouldn't be second guessing a decision making process to which, as far as I know, very few (if any) of us here have any first hand knowledge.

demonloop

I have no business posting in this thread, being from the north, but not being one for ceremony....

Its been discussed in the north on several occasions the perceived disarray of governance of shooting sports in the south, be it practical pistol, target etc.

Whether or not thats true can be argued to death but its certainly perceived. Not that anyone is doing anything purposely wrong in the south, but that the structures are lacking. There are so many bodies governing the sport I can't ever keep track.

I couldn't honestly tell you who has the final say of target shooting in the south, but I bet everyone in the south knows that the NSRA is the highest power in UK (for smallbore at least) Yes the north has a few different bodies, but its reasonably well thought out and has structure of some sort.

I understand the problems with practical pistol and target shooting as far as the ISSF rulings go, that much is clear, but to have the target shooting end of things leaving its ruling body to allow the practical pistol to come in could be seen as a victory for the practical pistol and a defeat for the target shooters. Perhaps no harm in that, who knows.

I hope I'm not doing the NGBs of the south an injustice, but its an honest view point shared in the north.

A well known GB 'figure of importance' has often aired the opinion that NI and ROI should shoot together, GB certainly don't want NI.

Imagine what sort of a clerical farce that would be, even more ruling bodies!! Forgetting the wider politics that would cause, it would give us a better chance against the rest of the world, but perhaps a step too far for most - works for the rugby though!

Whatever the issues of this event are lets hope its sorted for the good of the sport and the shooters who love the sport.

Rant over.

Sikamick

Sparks wrote: »

Just the NTSA. The NRAI have some serious issues but have not formally withdrawn.

________________________________________________________________

NTSA withdrawing from the SSAI, can one ask if it was for the same reason that the NRAI have serious issues? is the withdrawal connected with the NRAI (Issues)

Michael O'Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club
Affiliated member of NRAI & the NASR&PC.

Vegeta

Sikamick wrote: »

Sparks wrote: »

Just the NTSA. The NRAI have some serious issues but have not formally withdrawn.

________________________________________________________________

NTSA withdrawing from the SSAI, can one ask if it was for the same reason that the NRAI have serious issues? is the withdrawal connected with the NRAI (Issues)

Michael O'Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club
Affiliated member of NRAI & the NASR&PC.

I think anyone that could answer that would be on the NTSA committee and by posting NGB business might owe boards 950 euro.

I'd advise against in folks

Clash

demonloop wrote: »

I have no business posting in this thread, being from the north, but not being one for ceremony....

Its been discussed in the north on several occasions the perceived disarray of governance of shooting sports in the south, be it practical pistol, target etc.

Whether or not thats true can be argued to death but its certainly perceived. Not that anyone is doing anything purposely wrong in the south, but that the structures are lacking. There are so many bodies governing the sport I can't ever keep track.

And jumping in myself , it'd be perceived the same here. There's the UCESSA, NITSA, UCPSA, NIFTA, URA and of course the Irish Rifle Club (Bisley) which was formerly the Irish Rifle Association (I think) and used shoot as Ireland in F-Class.

I couldn't honestly tell you who has the final say of target shooting in the south, but I bet everyone in the south knows that the NSRA is the highest power in UK (for smallbore at least) Yes the north has a few different bodies, but its reasonably well thought out and has structure of some sort.

I think it's a problem of perception. You live in the North and so understand your structures better than us and vice versa.

I understand the problems with practical pistol and target shooting as far as the ISSF rulings go, that much is clear, but to have the target shooting end of things leaving its ruling body to allow the practical pistol to come in could be seen as a victory for the practical pistol and a defeat for the target shooters. Perhaps no harm in that, who knows.

There's no mention of the IPSA in the NTSA statement, it's wrong to suggest that when its only been wild speculation. I'm sure the IPSA would be more than peeved if they heard that people were blaming them for the situation.

I hope I'm not doing the NGBs of the south an injustice, but its an honest view point shared in the north.

Even in the UK, there's approximately the same number of bodies. It makes sense for different sports with different focuses to be governed seperately. Why else would there be the NRA, NSRA, CPSA, MLAGB, BFTA etc. etc.?

A well known GB 'figure of importance' has often aired the opinion that NI and ROI should shoot together, GB certainly don't want NI.

Imagine what sort of a clerical farce that would be, even more ruling bodies!! Forgetting the wider politics that would cause, it would give us a better chance against the rest of the world, but perhaps a step too far for most - works for the rugby though!

There used to be one organisation that controlled the sport on a provincial basis including Ulster. I think it lasted up to the 1960's.

Clash

Sikamick wrote: »

NTSA withdrawing from the SSAI, can one ask if it was for the same reason that the NRAI have serious issues? is the withdrawal connected with the NRAI (Issues)

NTSA Statement wrote:

after careful consideration of the resources expended against very limited returns. It was felt that these resources would be better directed towards the NTSA's own core activities

Black & white?

Vegeta

on thread warning, next thread which I consider politics discussion and you could be looking at some time off from the forum folks

This thread is to discuss how the decision effects shooting not the politics of different shooting organisations