NTSA withdraws from SSAI

Sparks

Okay, so far we've a half-dozen posts in here and several phone calls and PMs outside here all on the same incorrect point, so can I clear something up here folks? When I said that the NTSA would have to leave the SSAI if the IPSA joined, I was not saying that's why they have left. The reason's in their statement. I'm just pointing out what's been public domain knowlege for over a year anyway in case someone was to suggest there was no upside to this.

Sheesh. Now how about we take Veg's advice and discuss the sport related bits of this please? I mean, if the only thing that anyone has a question on here is the politics bits, we might as well close the thread now.

It wasn't me!

Are there any tangible effects, good, bad or indifferent, for NTSA members, either day to day or extraordinary?

tonysopprano

"Okay, so far we've a half-dozen posts in here and several phone calls and PMs outside here all on the same incorrect point, so can I clear something up here folks? When I said that the NTSA would have to leave the SSAI if the IPSA joined, I was not saying that's why they have left. The reason's in their statement. I'm just pointing out what's been public domain knowlege for over a year anyway in case someone was to suggest there was no upside to this."

So does this mean that the IPSA are now in the SSAI and as a consequence have a seat at the FCP?

Sparks

Are there any tangible effects, good, bad or indifferent, for NTSA members, either day to day or extraordinary?

Not immediately I think. Money's going to be tight for a while until Sports Council recognition is granted, but that doesn't affect anyone not on an international team.
In the long term, I'm personally stoked about this, I think it has a lot of potential to sort out the structures above the day-to-day shooter. A lot of manhours are now available to the NTSA to direct to things like coaching training and (once ISC recognition is sorted) renegotiating carding grant criteria so that the carding grant system is no longer daft and silly when you go past your 21st birthday. Actual sport stuff in other words. We could finally develop a pathways program which would be a boon to the day-to-day shooter (by which I mean, beginner courses, basic coaching, club level coaching, national level coaching, international events - a pathway for a total newbie to take all the way to the Olympics, with places along the way where they can aim for if the Olympics seems too much).

And hopefully we might actually start to see more involvement from the NI shooters as well - the NTSA's 32 county and always has been but thanks to the legislation hassles, cross-border competition has suffered in recent years.

From the NTSA's point of view and that of NTSA shooters, I think this is probably the most positive move made in a decade or so.

Sparks

tonysopprano wrote: »

So does this mean that the IPSA are now in the SSAI and as a consequence have a seat at the FCP?

No, the IPSA isn't officially in the SSAI as yet (as I understand it anyway). It does means that one headache on their road to that place is no longer there (but it's no longer there for other reasons). Think of it as a positive side effect.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Not immediately I think. Money's going to be tight for a while until Sports Council recognition is granted, but that doesn't affect anyone not on an international team.
In the long term, I'm personally stoked about this, I think it has a lot of potential to sort out the structures above the day-to-day shooter. A lot of manhours are now available to the NTSA to direct to things like coaching training and (once ISC recognition is sorted) renegotiating carding grant criteria so that the carding grant system is no longer daft and silly when you go past your 21st birthday. Actual sport stuff in other words. We could finally develop a pathways program which would be a boon to the day-to-day shooter (by which I mean, beginner courses, basic coaching, club level coaching, national level coaching, international events - a pathway for a total newbie to take all the way to the Olympics, with places along the way where they can aim for if the Olympics seems too much).

And hopefully we might actually start to see more involvement from the NI shooters as well - the NTSA's 32 county and always has been but thanks to the legislation hassles, cross-border competition has suffered in recent years.

From the NTSA's point of view and that of NTSA shooters, I think this is probably the most positive move made in a decade or so.

Well, anything that ends in more coaching and nationally structured and systematic coaching is a good idea by my measure, and if it simplifies matters above the level of most shooters, that's great too.

IRLConor

demonloop wrote: »

A well known GB 'figure of importance' has often aired the opinion that NI and ROI should shoot together, GB certainly don't want NI.

Hard to understand why they'd think that. There's a reasonable base of shooters in NI, certainly enough to contribute well to the UK shooting scene. Well, if GB doesn't want you then it's their loss and our gain.

I'd love to see more cross-border shooting interaction, more than just the postal matches. The paperwork for northern shooters coming south is a problem though. It's a pity, because we could do with a bunch of your shooters coming down and giving us a kick in the pants in smallbore shooting. The scores here have been picking up for the last while but being beaten does wonders for motivating you for more training.

Hopefully the only real outcome of the NTSA leaving the SSAI will be a stronger focus on the shooting.

Sparks

IRLConor wrote: »

Hard to understand why they'd think that.

Indeed. Certainly folks like Gary Duff could give folks like Mike Babb a run for their money if you compare their respective heydays (which, however, did not coincide).

There's a reasonable base of shooters in NI, certainly enough to contribute well to the UK shooting scene. Well, if GB doesn't want you then it's their loss and our gain.

In fact, it could be both gain. There's a formal rule about who you can shoot for if you're in NI - you have to choose either the GB or IRL teams for a particular match. But I have never understood the concept of that choice having anything to do with whom you train with. Nor could I think of any objection to someone declaring for GB for one match and IRL for another. Frankly, the more shooters on the line, the better the match, and I think that we need to do some building up right now and that means not ruling folks out on any basis that doesn't have a really good underlying reason.

I'd love to see more cross-border shooting interaction, more than just the postal matches.

Ditto. Some of the best matches I've been at were in N.Ireland and a lot of the shooters I started shooting with are up there.

It's a pity, because we could do with a bunch of your shooters coming down and giving us a kick in the pants in smallbore shooting. The scores here have been picking up for the last while but being beaten does wonders for motivating you for more training.

And we could return the favour in air rifle

Hopefully the only real outcome of the NTSA leaving the SSAI will be a stronger focus on the shooting.

That's why most of the people at the coaching end of things and most of the admin people in the NTSA are really rather stoked right now. The potential to progress here is really excellent.

demonloop

Great comments, both Conor and Sparks, it would be great to have more training together and competitions as well.

The logistics can prove troublesome, as was posted already, but not something that can't be conquered.

I'm sure the politics part of thigs goes on in most other sports as well, be it athletics etc but something that really does detract from the sport and what the sport stands for.

Lets hope the re-shuffle in the south helps the sport as a whole.

fourtycoats

What were the mods expecting on this thread? I have never seen such dire warnings in advance of an expected debate. Did you kill any debate or is it a case of "so what" as regards the secession?

Sparks

We were expecting the kind of thing that got the forum shut down the last time fourty - and from what I remember, everyone used to complain about that kind of thing when it was going on (read "The Sandbox", "How to derail a topic with a personal dispute", "NRAI/LRRAI Debate" and the other 'bad old days' threads to see what I mean). Since then, the internecine squabbling has been banned from here by the admins, and pretty much everyone who'd anything to do with it seems to be the happier for it.

Sikamick

Sparks can the NTSA get funding direct from the Irish Sports Council?

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

Sparks can the NTSA get funding direct from the Irish Sports Council?

Sikamick

That's up to the Sports Council. There are no guarantees.

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

That's up to the Sports Council. There are no guarantees.

_____________________________________________________________

How do the Sports Council evaluate an Association for funding and what does an Association do to get official recognition.

Sikamick

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

_____________________________________________________________

How do the Sports Council evaluate an Association for funding and what does an Association do to get official recognition.

Sikamick

It would be quicker for both of us if you went here.

Rule 1 is that they generally only recognise one body for a particular sport. Hence the existence of the NRPAI/SSAI in the first place.

Sparks

Thing is, the existance of the NRPAI/SSAI was predicated on the idea that ISSF shooting and Silhouette shooting and Sporter rifle shooting and the tetrathlon were all the same sport. Manifestly untrue.
Personally, I believe that gaining independent recognition from the ISC and qualifying for ISC funding (which, by the way, are seperate things), is going to be relatively straightforward for the NTSA.

Sparks

Sikamick wrote: »

How do the Sports Council evaluate an Association for funding and what does an Association do to get official recognition.

From the ISC:

Eligibility process
The Council operates an eligibility process for organisations wishing to become eligible for Council support as Governing Bodies of Sport. The eligibility criteria establish minimum requirements for all organisations wishing to apply for Council financial support. The Eligibility process is currently under review.

Sparks

As we already have the NTSA statement on the thread.
From the NRAI website:

SSAI Update

Following a meeting with the Shooting Sports Association of Ireland on 
Wednesday 13th August @ 7.30pm, it was agreed that
:

(1) 
In the future all meetings and correspondence concerning the business of the 
NRAI, must at all times be conducted directly with the NRAI, being the 
National governing body for F-Class, Target and Match in the Republic of 
Ireland and not through any other body.




(2) 

It was further agreed at that meeting to clarify the position of the SSAI 
(Shooting Sports association of Ireland) as there seems to be some confusion 
on the matter.

 The SSAI is an umbrella body for some shooting organisations within the Republic 
of Ireland.

It's main purpose is the distribution of funding as determined 
by the Irish Sports Council.

It is not an NGB (National Governing Body for Shooting Sports in Ireland).



It has no regulatory function or powers over Shooting sports in Ireland.

 Its officers are not authorised or empowered to act independently of the 
associated organisations which comprise the umbrella body.

It has no function in awarding or withholding recognition of NGB status to 
associations.

The NRAI regrets the departure of the NTSA from the SSAI and would like to wish them all the best for the future.

kdshooter

Sparks wrote: »

As we already have the NTSA statement on the thread.
From the NRAI website:

Sorry don't understand - are NRAI pulling out of SSAI?

Not sure what their website is saying!

Sparks

They're not pulling out at the moment, and those statements are ones which the SSAI have stipulated to at the NRAI's request, as I understand it.

Rovi

Recent contributions split off to new thread, thread re-opened.

paddyenfield303

Rovi wrote: »

Recent contributions split off to new thread, thread re-opened.

why

IRLConor

paddyenfield303 wrote: »

why

Because it was becoming a topic of its own.

paddyenfield303

IRLConor wrote: »

Because it was becoming a topic of its own.

sorry can you explan

IRLConor

The title and subject of this thread is the NTSA withdrawing from the SSAI. Only vaguely relating to the NRAI and not really anything to do with the IRC(B). Since it was veering off-topic, it was better to give those posts their own space.

Also, it was heading fast into the territory that is forbidden.

If you'd like to discuss the moderator actions further, either PM myself or the other mods or start a thread in Help Desk or Feedback. I generally prefer if this forum is used to discuss shooting and not shooting moderation.

Sparks

Indeed. I'll add only one more point to what IRLConor has said here: namely that before the forum was shut down, we merrily engaged in discussions of this kind, only to discover that folks were unable to do so:

1. while remaining civil,
2. while getting anywhere at all beyond the "you did X", "did not!", "did so!" level of dialogue (if it could even be called that), and,
3. without threatening lawsuits against other groups, other individuals and the site itself.

And for the record, while we were engaging in such discussions, we were getting constant complaints from other posters in here that they were sick of such threads. Well, now they're gone and we have two forums where any and all "politics" is banned. Seems strange to now get complaints because we've solved the problem!

paddyenfield303

sorry not wel up on this