What are the odds?

Schuhart

Can I suggest that part of the problem may be the use of that word 'supernatural'. Because I rather think its cloaking a distinction. There is 'supernatural' in the sense of believing a supernatural origin to this reality. But that does not necessarily require a belief that supernatural things, in the sense of ghosts and paranormal stuff. In terms of an example of this, I'd think of the priest who taught me science in school. He was one of those people who felt that science revealed the majesty of God's creation. He did not expect miraculous cures or the like. He would accept the outcome of any scientific investigation. But he could speak with great enthusiasm, and even used words like 'beauty', as he described what he saw as the wonder of how all this stuff works.

Then there's supernatural in the sense of miracle cures, fortune telling and the like. I think its clear once we step into this area that we are in shark infested waters. I take it that PDN will accept that there are many charlatans out there. I know he'll argue his corner of this field is different, but I really cannot see why that is so. Even God giving someone a psychic dig to shift out of a parking spot thirty seconds early involves a divine manipulation of this reality. Its only superficially different to a grander miracle - I refuse to believe that present company don't see the issue at stake here.

Once you've popped that cherry, you've popped it. If you claim you've a direct line to God that allows you to pop people out of their parking spaces to let you in, you simply have entered the same twilight zone occupied by the like of Tony Quinn Yoga's claims of distance healing by everyone thinking you cured.

Apologies as I'm basically repeating what I've already said. But just take it as an indication of incredulity at the line you are defending.

PDN wrote: »

It is perfectly reasonable to believe that some supernatural claims are more valid than others.

I would not use the word 'more valid', although clearly you will. But just to indicate that I don't think this is a clear atheist/theist divide either, I actually do agree that some religious claims (I want to avoid the term 'supernatural' as I think it has become loaded) are more reasonable than others. Specifically, I do think that Islam has a more incredible basis than Christianity. That said, the fact that whole societies can be based around Islam and many perfectly decent folk with expertise in different fields can hold that faith to be true should be an indication to us that large amounts of people can be attached to belief systems that seem to have questionable foundations.

But that's another thread.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

No, they are not both belief in a supernatural superstition. The word 'superstition' is a pejorative term that demonstrates how you are approaching this discussion with your mind already made up. You are, therefore, begging the question.

I'm not sure what you mean by "with your mind already made up" ... mind made up about what?

Are you suggesting that belief in a god that "answers specific requests" (to use your phrase which means exactly the same as grants good fortune a phrase which you seem to take offence) is not supernatural superstition but belief in a rabbits foot is?

Are you serious?

Splendour

santing wrote: »

I don't know your circumstances, and I don't want to sound cheap, but He is the God who really sees. If you read the end of Hebrews 11, if you read the Psalms, you can see that many have struggled with this before.

Indeed they have-hence my immersing myself in scripture for encouragement!
And no, you don't sound cheap, but also encouraging...Thank you

Splendour

santing wrote: »

The original question - from Satan - was that Job worshipped God because of his wealth. God had proven Satan wrong. That God gave job twice as much was solely based on grace.
And yes, sometimes I am jealous as well - but I may not be able to handle wealth the way Job did!

Given that Job passed on some of the inheritance to his daughters (unheard of in those days), I think Job was very wise in handling his wealth

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by "with your mind already made up" ... mind made up about what?

Your mind made up that everything that claims to lie outside observed laws of nature is lumped together and therefore equivalent.

Are you suggesting that belief in a god that "answers specific requests" (to use your phrase which means exactly the same as grants good fortune a phrase which you seem to take offence) is not supernatural superstition but belief in a rabbits foot is?

Belief in a God who answers prayer is not supernatural superstition. God is 'supernatural' in the sense that the one who created nature is by definition above the confines of nature. If such a God exists, then it is plainly not superstition to pray to Him and to ask Him to intervene in our lives.

Wicknight, if you want to add something new to this discussion then feel free to do so. All you are doing at present is persisting in asserting the same old nonsense again and again. You don't believe in God - you've made that clear. You don't believe in prayer - you've made that clear. That is your prerogative. But to repeatedly assert in the Christianity forum that a basic Christian principle such as prayer is 'superstition' or belief in 'fortune' is trolling. Stop it if you wish to be able to continue posting here.

vibe666

I don't think that is very fair.

by dismissing the rabbits foot analogy you are effectivly doing the same thing.

to you, your religion is a very real palpable thing like I'm sure a luck rabbit's foot is to someone who believes in that but both are outside of our measurable physical world. whether or not your interpretation of god exists or not is no more relevant than whatever is believed to make a rabbits foot work.

until the presence or absense of something can be physically measured there's no way to prove or disprove any of it with any degree of certainty. we all have our beliefs whatever they may be, crossing our fingers, praying to god, wishing on a star or whatever but the facts remain the same.

the very essence of 'faith' in any religion is based on a persons own certainty that their god exists and that their religious leaders and books are telling the truth but there are many religions and surely they can't all be right and with no specific proof that does not require any faith to believe there is no way to say for sure who is right or even who is most definitely wrong.

TravelJunkie

Schuhart wrote: »

Can I suggest that part of the problem may be the use of that word 'supernatural'. Because I rather think its cloaking a distinction. There is 'supernatural' in the sense of believing a supernatural origin to this reality. But that does not necessarily require a belief that supernatural things, in the sense of ghosts and paranormal stuff. In terms of an example of this, I'd think of the priest who taught me science in school. He was one of those people who felt that science revealed the majesty of God's creation. He did not expect miraculous cures or the like. He would accept the outcome of any scientific investigation. But he could speak with great enthusiasm, and even used words like 'beauty', as he described what he saw as the wonder of how all this stuff works.

Then there's supernatural in the sense of miracle cures, fortune telling and the like. I think its clear once we step into this area that we are in shark infested waters. I take it that PDN will accept that there are many charlatans out there. I know he'll argue his corner of this field is different, but I really cannot see why that is so. Even God giving someone a psychic dig to shift out of a parking spot thirty seconds early involves a divine manipulation of this reality. Its only superficially different to a grander miracle - I refuse to believe that present company don't see the issue at stake here.

Once you've popped that cherry, you've popped it. If you claim you've a direct line to God that allows you to pop people out of their parking spaces to let you in, you simply have entered the same twilight zone occupied by the like of Tony Quinn Yoga's claims of distance healing by everyone thinking you cured.

Apologies as I'm basically repeating what I've already said. But just take it as an indication of incredulity at the line you are defending.I would not use the word 'more valid', although clearly you will. But just to indicate that I don't think this is a clear atheist/theist divide either, I actually do agree that some religious claims (I want to avoid the term 'supernatural' as I think it has become loaded) are more reasonable than others. Specifically, I do think that Islam has a more incredible basis than Christianity. That said, the fact that whole societies can be based around Islam and many perfectly decent folk with expertise in different fields can hold that faith to be true should be an indication to us that large amounts of people can be attached to belief systems that seem to have questionable foundations.

But that's another thread.

There is something no one has touched on.

Basically, it's to do with our relationship with God. Prayer is a key part of that relationship. Prayer can take the form of a very formal request from someone who is a christian but does not read the bible every day, maybe calls on God once every 2 weeks. They might say ; Dear God, my friend eliza is in hospital for an operation, please watch over her. Thank you Lord.

Then there is someone with a deeper relationship with God. A minister is the prime example of this. An atheist who doesn't believe in God, etc etc can never understand this relationship.
For example, this person wakes up and the first thing he does is say thank you lord for a wonderful day. Then he might go into some quiet time, praise God, sing, read the bible. And a big part of this is also being quiet and listening to God. This is where God starts to talk to the person. The minister might do this 2-3 times a day. Also, there is a continous dialogue between the minister and God. So, although I don't pray for parking spaces, I can understand that someone would, it would be like asking a friend for something minor.

There are two differences between the first person's prayer and the second's. The latter has a relationship with God to be able to involve God in ALL aspects of his life. This, to me, is the ideal way for a Christian to live.
And yes, it can seem like a bubble (in the sense that no one else can understand this life) But what's wrong with that?

The first person's prayer is just as valid to God as the latter and vice versa. The only difference is how comfortable the person is with God - and that is what the resultant prayer will be about.

If you have an aquaintance you see at your bowling club once a month, and say your wife who you see every day - who would you feel more comfortable asking for something personal?

What I mean is, the person praying for their sick friend would never think about praying for a parking space because they don't have that kind of relationship with God. But someone else wouldn't have a problem praying for the space because they do.

Sorry for repeating myself along the way.

JimiTime

^^Don't know if your above point will make an atheist see any different, but I must say it sounds good to me. What i find about prayer, is that I shouldn't ask for those trivial things (parking spaces etc). However, I think your point above is a very good one. Got me thinking anyway. My brother and I had a similar conversation a while back. I was jokingly saying how myself and my wife would love a house in Dalkey. He said, well why not pray for it? I was saying 'It feels like a misuse of prayer'. I suppose I'm still a little uncomfortable with it, but I'll meditate on the point you raised.

santing

Thanks TravelJunkie,

The following sums it up nicely (emphasis is mine):

Pro 3:6 GNB Remember the LORD in everything you do, and he will show you the right way.

Fanny Cradock

JimiTime wrote: »

^^Don't know if your above point will make an atheist see any different, but I must say it sounds good to me. What i find about prayer, is that I shouldn't ask for those trivial things (parking spaces etc). However, I think your point above is a very good one. Got me thinking anyway. My brother and I had a similar conversation a while back. I was jokingly saying how myself and my wife would love a house in Dalkey. He said, well why not pray for it? I was saying 'It feels like a misuse of prayer'. I suppose I'm still a little uncomfortable with it, but I'll meditate on the point you raised.

That pretty much sums up my position. I never feel i should trivialise partition prayer by praying for trivial things. However, this can lead to no prayer at all.

JimiTime

Here's the thing. When Jesus said about faith, i.e. you can tell a mountain to move etc, was he only talking to the apostles? I.E. Does that only apply to those who are specially selected as apostles?

TravelJunkie

JT and Santing

Yes, it was hard writing that because it only brought attention to my lack of QT and involving God in everything.

I thought about it since, and I thought 'I should be doing more for God'

and the next revelation was 'doing more for God' isn't campaigning about Aids, it's forfeiting watching a re-run of friends for some quiet time.

Is God too busy for us, or we too busy for God?

TravelJunkie

JimiTime wrote: »

Here's the thing. When Jesus said about faith, i.e. you can tell a mountain to move etc, was he only talking to the apostles? I.E. Does that only apply to those who are specially selected as apostles?

It applies to us too. Unfortunately sometimes because although it's a great scripture, it also puts a responsibility on us to believe that we shall receive something when we ask for it

JimiTime

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

That pretty much sums up my position. I never feel i should trivialise partition prayer by praying for trivial things. However, this can lead to no prayer at all.

Thats the thing. I suppose the question I'm asking now is, Why wouldn't I invite Gods input into any aspect of my life? Why would I think I'm abusing prayer, if I need a parking space for example. Do I think God would be saying, 'r u for real, I aint got time'. I think Travel Junkie's post gave a great analogy about this. Certainly food for thought.

TravelJunkie

JimiTime wrote: »

Thats the thing. I suppose the question I'm asking now is, Why wouldn't I invite Gods input into any aspect of my life? Why would I think I'm abusing prayer, if I need a parking space for example. Do I think God would be saying, 'r u for real, I aint got time'. I think Travel Junkie's post gave a great analogy about this. Certainly food for thought.

I think your question is something we might all be thinking right now. Me especially.

JimiTime

TravelJunkie wrote: »

It applies to us too. Unfortunately sometimes because although it's a great scripture, it also puts a responsibility on us to believe that we shall receive something when we ask for it

If thats the case, I can tell the cancerous tumour to flee its victim and it will. Unless of course, I really don't have even the slightest bit of faith. Which I find hard to believe. There is no Caveat in what Jesus says, i.e. No bit that says, you can tell the mountain to move, and God will then decide if he wants to move it. Which is why I tend to think of it as being directed at the chosen apostles.

TravelJunkie

I know where you're coming from - it's the 'faith' teaching that is very popular amongst charismatics. like, well you didn't get cured because your faith wasn't strong enough. That is wrong. But I don't know how to read into that verse otherwise because I do take the bible as applying to everyone.

TravelJunkie

JimiTime wrote: »

If thats the case, I can tell the cancerous tumour to flee its victim and it will. Unless of course, I really don't have even the slightest bit of faith. Which I find hard to believe. There is no Caveat in what Jesus says, i.e. No bit that says, you can tell the mountain to move, and God will then decide if he wants to move it. Which is why I tend to think of it as being directed at the chosen apostles.

Something else I just thought of;

I think that sometimes prayer isn't enough for some things. Lets call it cancer or something equally terrible. It might require group intercession or spiritual warfare (this is very intense stuff - seen it once)

What are your thoughts on this PDN?

PDN

TravelJunkie wrote: »

Something else I just thought of;

I think that sometimes prayer isn't enough for some things. Lets call it cancer or something equally terrible. It might require group intercession or spiritual warfare (this is very intense stuff - seen it once)

What are your thoughts on this PDN?

Some interesting thoughts coming out in the thread now!

I really hope that we don't have different kinds of prayer for 'ministers' than for others. I'm a firm believer in the priesthood of all believers and I think that every Christian should be a minister (in the word's true sense of being a servant of Christ). Therefore I think we all need to make our faith a part of our everyday lives.

There is undoubtedly a relationship between faith and answered prayer, but this is not so cut & dried as some would have us believe. I remember somebody once trying to tell me that it was my fault my daughter died because I mustn't have had enough faith for her healing!

The Bible says Jesus didn't work many miracles in his home village of Nazareth because of the people's unbelief (Matthew 13:58). It also tells us that one individual was healed because of the faith of his friends who brought him to Jesus, not on account of his own faith (Mark 2:5). So faith is important, both on the part of the one being prayed for and also on the part of others.

The New Bible also teaches that there is power in agreement - "If two or three agree in my name". This is one of the reasons why it is good for Christians to congregate together instead of just trying to practice an individualistic faith on their own. If I am praying for something that seems a big ask, that requires a lot of faith, I try to get others to pray with me. I might phone or email a few friends and ask them to pray, or we might get the whole church to pray for something together in our Sunday services. (Of course we reserve this for the big stuff where people have life threatening diseases etc. I've never asked the whole church to pray for a parking space for me. )

santing

JimiTime wrote: »

If thats the case, I can tell the cancerous tumour to flee its victim and it will. Unless of course, I really don't have even the slightest bit of faith. Which I find hard to believe. There is no Caveat in what Jesus says, i.e. No bit that says, you can tell the mountain to move, and God will then decide if he wants to move it. Which is why I tend to think of it as being directed at the chosen apostles.

JimiTime,

Prayer is not a vendingmachine. It doesn't work like "put in enough" and make your choice. Prayer is having a conversation with God. It is discovering what his will is, because not our will, but his should be done! That is what the "faith bit" is about.

If we pray because we want something, we may end up asking selfish things - and God isn't obligued to answer those prayers.

So the right order is 1) discover what Gods will is 2) Pray for it. An example of that is given by James about Elijah:

Jas 5:16-18 ESV Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. (17) Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. (18) Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.

The same James said earlier:

Jas 4:3-8 ESV You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. (4) You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. (5) Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, "He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us"? (6) But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." (7) Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (8) Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

Elijah knew that God would send rain, because God had promised that to Him:

1Ki 18:1 ESV After many days the word of the LORD came to Elijah, in the third year, saying, "Go, show yourself to Ahab, and I will send rain upon the earth."

JimiTime

santing wrote: »

JimiTime,

Prayer is not a vendingmachine. It doesn't work like "put in enough" and make your choice. Prayer is having a conversation with God. It is discovering what his will is, because not our will, but his should be done! That is what the "faith bit" is about.

I understand that, which is why i said that this power was bestowed on men chosen to wield it. I.E. Apostles. Their power was not about prayer as such, but them being given authority. Bind on earth is bound in heaven etc. I believe that we can have faith, but we do not have this authority which the apostles had. If we did, we could go as the apostles did, into nations of unbelievers and show signs of the Living God. BTW, this is stated for discussion purposes, i am an open book at the moment. Thinking out loud.

If we pray because we want something, we may end up asking selfish things - and God isn't obligued to answer those prayers.

As far as i am aware, he's not obliged to answer any prayer.

So the right order is 1) discover what Gods will is 2) Pray for it.

So we can't request anything that is our will? What of the cancerous child? Is it wrong to ask for them to be healed? Is that selfish?
The Lords example of prayer tells us how to pray. Asking God for things is different to this is it not?

As I mentioned earlier, the question at the moment is, why not involve him in all parts of our lives? be it car parking or whatever? I've always felt uncomfortable asking for 'selfish' things, but at the end of the day, should I not ask, and let God decide his will for me?

santing

JimiTime wrote: »

I understand that, which is why i said that this power was bestowed on men chosen to wield it. I.E. Apostles. Their power was not about prayer as such, but them being given authority. Bind on earth is bound in heaven etc. I believe that we can have faith, but we do not have this authority which the apostles had. If we did, we could go as the apostles did, into nations of unbelievers and show signs of the Living God. BTW, this is stated for discussion purposes, i am an open book at the moment. Thinking out loud.

I think that the power the apostle had was also by "commission" - i.e. they were on God's business. We do read that the apostles were thrown in prison - and not always got out miracelously. We do read that coworkers were sick etc. The power they had was from God, to be used for His Business. We are also asked to be involved in God's work. The more we get involved, the more we knwo God's will, the more He can give to us.

JimiTime wrote: »

So we can't request anything that is our will? What of the cancerous child? Is it wrong to ask for them to be healed? Is that selfish?
The Lords example of prayer tells us how to pray. Asking God for things is different to this is it not?

I think God is happy to listen to all our request, wheteher they are in His will or not. But if we pray to Him without knowing his will, we cannot claim that He should answer the prayer.

JimiTime wrote: »

As I mentioned earlier, the question at the moment is, why not involve him in all parts of our lives? be it car parking or whatever? I've always felt uncomfortable asking for 'selfish' things, but at the end of the day, should I not ask, and let God decide his will for me?

That's is a good attitude.
When we get to know God better - and for that purpose He left us on earth! we will find it easier to know what prayer are accoridng to God's plan for our lives and the lives of friends and family. We will better know how to pray and to look out for God's answers.

Schuhart

JimiTime wrote: »

^^Don't know if your above point will make an atheist see any different, but I must say it sounds good to me. What i find about prayer, is that I shouldn't ask for those trivial things (parking spaces etc). However, I think your point above is a very good one. Got me thinking anyway. My brother and I had a similar conversation a while back. I was jokingly saying how myself and my wife would love a house in Dalkey. He said, well why not pray for it? I was saying 'It feels like a misuse of prayer'. I suppose I'm still a little uncomfortable with it, but I'll meditate on the point you raised.

I'll be as brief as possible, because I don't want to interrupt the flow of an interesting stream of thought.

What I find explicable is the attitude of the priest who thought me science. His view (as communicated to his class) was the thing to be thankful for was to be part of this creation. So, rather than pray for a car parking space, he would more likely (on getting a car parking space) thank God for a world where cars could be parked. I think this is getting close to, but not identical with, the kind of thoughts being expressed there.

The idea of praying for a material advantage, of whatever nature, would strike me as superstitious. But, in fairness to PDN, I agree I'm hardly the arbiter of what's within the bounds of acceptable Christian behaviour.

Schuhart

I was Googling for another thread, and came across this which might be of interest. I find his conclusion resonates with the kind of thing on my mind, and the author does seem to be a Christian.

I have been a Christian for a lot of years, and I have heard a lot of prayers: in churches and in Bible studies; on television and radio; everywhere. Praying is one of those non-negotiable parts of modern Christian culture. And yet I have heard very few prayers that sound much like Paul's. I don't mean I expect anyone to match his eloquence and understanding; I just mean a prayer that is concerned with the same issues that concern Paul. Too often we seem to have our hearts fixed on almost anything else. We want health and wealth and success and miracles and church growth and prayer in schools and a conservative president and a job and a good life for our children and...and...

There is nothing wrong with any of these things, but they can be incredibly distracting from the main issue. You and I are on a life-and- death journey to the kingdom of God. We must grow in faith, be strengthened to persevere, find hope and joy in believing, hunger and thirst after righteousness, live as if the gospel were really true. If we do not, then we will languish and droop; we will fall by the wayside. Belief, encouragement, perseverance, hope, wisdom; these are not optional side-benefits for a certain class of Christian; they are the very stuff of Christianity itself. If we do not find that strength and encouragement which is from God, then we have found nothing at all; we are lost.

Again, I stress that I'm not suggesting Christians should go about their praying in a manner explicable to me. But I can actually follow what this guy is getting at, and I don't see it as raising the kind of issues that bothered me at the start of this thread.

wolfsbane

vibe666 said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Every thing that troubles His people is a concern to Him. Nothing is too small to bring....<snip><snip><snip>
seriously, can you hear yourself?

every single time this quesiton is brought up someone waves some obscure piece of scripture to dismiss it and brush away an inconvenient truth.

you're talling me that your god wants innocent children to suffer and die as a lesson to others but he can still happily find time to mess around with your mundane little lives?

what happened to children being innocent?

okay, so god does what he wants and who are any of us to question it?

excuse me? seriously. i question any god who would act in such a way. benevolent father my a$$!

you have a book full of things he's supposed to have done in the world (all of which before the days of the camcorder I might add) yet when it comes to protecting innocent children he's too busy giving people directions in the back of beyond to do anything about it.

I'm sorry but no, no way at all ever would I believe in such a god as that.

how can any of you honestly, seriously believe in such propaganda?

anyway back to the subject at hand.

God is not too busy to deliver the innocent/righteous. He often does. So why so many who suffer? Because all of us, children included, are sinners by nature and inheritors of Adam's punishment. Suffering and death came by the Fall. God is not obliged to save any of us from those consequences. We will all die, but the timing and manner of our deaths are determined with answers to our prayers being a part of that.

Specifically, in the case of children being abused/murdered for example, sometimes God permits such evil to happen, at other times He prevents it. Those who do the evil will pay for it in the Day of Judgement. Those who suffer it ought to learn from it how evil men's hearts are, and look to God to change their hearts lest they grow up to be just as wicked. They will be given grace to deal with their sufferings, if they ask God for it. Every Christian can bear witness that his/her sufferings have brought good to them in the end.

Not only is the Bible full of what God has done, each Christian has his personal tally of God's deliverances and mercies to him/her.

I'm sorry to rain on your parade here, but every single 'miracle' performed by your god in this thread has also happened to the rest of us unbelievers too.

atheists bump into each other at the oddest times too and in every corner of the world. I bumped into my old best mate from school who I'd lost touch with at a service station at the other end of the country in the UK about 10 years ago.

my brothers wife bumped into her parents next door neighbours in a craft market on the other side of the world. 10 seconds either way and she'd never have even known they were in the same country, never mind the same town.

i bumped into my girlfriends flatmate from a town in wales when i was in Oz. I've bumped into my step brother in Slane when neither of us even knew the other was in Ireland (both from the UK). he was only there for the weekend at the last minute and purely by a fluke ended up in slane. i was supposed to meet a half a dozen other people there and even with text messaging we never even managed to hook up (mind you were were all a bit p1ssed).

if you were going to a hindu conference do you think you would have credited Ganesh with helping you bump into each other?

so to answer your original question, your odds are actually pretty good that at various times in your life you will bump into people like this just like it's very likely that the rest of us (religious or not) will too.

just as billions of monkeys mashing away at billions of keyboards will evertually write up the complete works of shakesphere, or even the bible.

You are addressing PDN, but let me just say that 'coincidences' may well be just that, but when such happen in answer to prayer, the odds point more to intervention. In any event, God does not limit His intervention to Christians, but graciously deals with sinners too:
Acts 17:God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

santing

Schuhart wrote: »

I was Googling for another thread, and came across this which might be of interest. .... But I can actually follow what this guy is getting at, and I don't see it as raising the kind of issues that bothered me at the start of this thread.

There are a few prayer examples in the New Testament, and indeed ours (well at least mine) do not meet up to it. They are worth studying to improve prayer life!

The prayer of the Son to His Father - John 17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2017;&version=47;

Early believers praying for boldness:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=acts%204:23-31;&version=47;

Paul's 2 prayers in Ephesians
(1) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%201:15-23;&version=47;
(2) http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=eph%203:14-21;&version=47;

Paul's reference to prayer for Phillipians: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=phil%201:9-11;&version=47;

Paul's prayer for the Colossians: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=col%201:3-14;&version=47;

Paul's prayer for the Thessalonians: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20thes%201:11-12;&version=47;

There are most likely more examples!

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

If such a God exists, then it is plainly not superstition to pray to Him and to ask Him to intervene in our lives.

Yes it is.

You seem to be working under the mistaken assertion that calling something superstition means saying it isn't real. That is not the case. I have a friend who puts his socks on a certain way every football game. When asked why he does that he says "Because i'm superstitious". Now clearly if that was him saying I do thing based on a belief in things that aren't true and are nonsense, it would be stupid of him to do his good luck ritual every time.

A superstition is a belief, often irrational but then that is a loaded term around these parts, that some practice or ritual will alter the logical or reasonably predicted outcome of regular course of events. Whether or not it is real or not is largely irrelevant

That is exactly what praying to a god is. You pray that your god will in some way change or effect the regular course of some event or outcome to be in your or someone else's favor. You pray that you won't drown when your car goes into a river. You pray that a friend has a successful heart operation. You pray that atheists find Jesus. All these things are a practice to supernaturally alter the regular predicted outcome in a positive favor.

And it is exactly what having a rabbits foot is. They are equvelant. I really can't put it any more clearer than that PDN.

Your insistence of arguing EVERY SINGLE LITTLE POINT that you consider may in some way make Christianity look equvalent to something you yourself have no time for is really tiresome. Please stop do thiat and next time simply listen to what people are saying.

And can you please stop calling people trolls simply because they disagree with you

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes it is.

You seem to be working under the mistaken assertion that calling something superstition means saying it isn't real. That is not the case. I have a friend who puts his socks on a certain way every football game. When asked why he does that he says "Because i'm superstitious". Now clearly if that was him saying I do thing based on a belief in things that aren't true and are nonsense, it would be stupid of him to do his good luck ritual every time.

A superstition is a belief, often irrational but then that is a loaded term around these parts, that some practice or ritual will alter the logical or reasonably predicted outcome of regular course of events. Whether or not it is real or not is largely irrelevant

That is exactly what praying to a god is. You pray that your god will in some way change or effect the regular course of some event or outcome to be in your or someone else's favor. You pray that you won't drown when your car goes into a river. You pray that a friend has a successful heart operation. You pray that atheists find Jesus. All these things are a practice to supernaturally alter the regular predicted outcome in a positive favor.

And it is exactly what having a rabbits foot is. They are equvelant. I really can't put it any more clearer than that PDN.

Your insistence of arguing EVERY SINGLE LITTLE POINT that you consider may in some way make Christianity look equvalent to something you yourself have no time for is really tiresome. Please stop do thiat and next time simply listen to what people are saying.

And can you please stop calling people trolls simply because they disagree with you

This discussion has moved on to something with a bit more substance (To christians anyway). maybe its time for some decorum, and leave it be. Its not that yourself and PDN are going to agree on anything. Christians are not going to agree with you IMO. Maybe atheists wont agree with PDN. At the end of the day though, the discussion has improved, so maybe let its time to let it be?

Fanny Cradock

JimiTime wrote: »

Thats the thing. I suppose the question I'm asking now is, Why wouldn't I invite Gods input into any aspect of my life? Why would I think I'm abusing prayer, if I need a parking space for example. Do I think God would be saying, 'r u for real, I aint got time'. I think Travel Junkie's post gave a great analogy about this. Certainly food for thought.

From what we understand about the nature of God - or what I believe, anyway - the whole 'aint got no time' thing wouldn't be a constraint for God because he is outside of time. Still, I often feel the same as yourself.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

This discussion has moved on to something with a bit more substance (To christians anyway). maybe its time for some decorum, and leave it be. Its not that yourself and PDN are going to agree on anything.

Agreed, moving on.

What are you guys discussing?

vibe666

wolfsbane wrote: »

Specifically, in the case of children being abused/murdered for example, sometimes God permits such evil to happen, at other times He prevents it. Those who do the evil will pay for it in the Day of Judgement. Those who suffer it ought to learn from it how evil men's hearts are, and look to God to change their hearts lest they grow up to be just as wicked. They will be given grace to deal with their sufferings, if they ask God for it.

well done wolfsbane, that is absolutely priceless.

any civilised human being would be appalled at the thought of a child being abused, but many more time so by the thought that their abuser did it to punish even a very close relative.

what you seem to be saying is that your god punishes babies and children to show them how evil men can be because he sees them as sinners because of something that supposedly happened thousands of years ago to their most distant ancestor?

that's great, congratulations on a sterling choice for a deity. :rolleyes:

Zombrex

wolfsbane wrote: »

Specifically, in the case of children being abused/murdered for example, sometimes God permits such evil to happen, at other times He prevents it.

Is it not evil in itself to permit such evil to happen if one has the ability to stop it?

Could I say that I didn't stop my son being sexually abused by his teacher because I wanted the rest of my children to know that sexual abuse happens and is bad? Do you think anyone here would have time for such a nonsense excuse for allowing my son to suffer?

wolfsbane wrote: »

Those who do the evil will pay for it in the Day of Judgement. Those who suffer it ought to learn from it how evil men's hearts are, and look to God to change their hearts lest they grow up to be just as wicked.

What is with you guy and the focus on the punishment aspect. What is the point of punishment if one could have stopped the event in the first place.

Again using the example of my (theoretical) son, which do you think would be better for my son, if I allowed him to be sexual abused and then punished the teacher who did it, or if I stopped the sexual abuse in the first place.

Do you think in the former case my son would by thanking me because the teacher has been punished for what he did, or do you think he would be very angry that I had the power to stop the harm in the first place yet allowed it to happen, even if I then punished the abuser after he had harmed my son.

wolfsbane wrote: »

You are addressing PDN, but let me just say that 'coincidences' may well be just that, but when such happen in answer to prayer, the odds point more to intervention.

No, the odds point more to coincidence. If you are praying your brain is in the mode to assign purpose to non-connected events and you will see "intervention" everywhere.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

Agreed, moving on.

What are you guys discussing?

cheers WN. i know its a bit 'back seat modding' of me.
We are discussing, how we should pray. What we should ask for. What should we expect etc.

EDIT: It seems the discussion has moved again WN, sorry for the initial request. The more I think about it, the more I see the request as particularlly cheeky.

vibe666

and how does the whole forgiveness thing fit in with those assertions that we are all sinners and must be punished?

on the one hand you are taught that god will forgive you your own sins if you ask him to and are truly sorry for what you have done but on the other hand he's allowing the raping and killing of your fellow men women and children as punishment for the sins of adam thousands of years ago.

seems like he really knows how to hold a grudge. how can you be sure that he's really forgiven your own sins if he ca't forgive adam?

and you talk about 'the will of god' and how he decides what's what in the world, who he will help and who he won't. isn't it a bit presumptuous to think that your prayers would have any influence on him?

for example. a child is dying of leukemia, which if it happened would be god's will but you seem to think that by praying you *may* be able to change the outcome so that the child could live. so are you saying that your prayer is able to change the mind of god?

surely if you did not intervene and the child dies then that is gods will, but if you pray and the child survives as a result then you have changed gods mind into sparing their life but that doesn't seem to fit in with my understanding of gods will as cast iron and unchangeable. when god decides to do something that's it, end of story.

how can you affect his decisions like this with prayer?

PDN

vibe666 wrote: »

for example. a child is dying of leukemia, which if it happened would be god's will but you seem to think that by praying you *may* be able to change the outcome so that the child could live. so are you saying that your prayer is able to change the mind of god?

surely if you did not intervene and the child dies then that is gods will, but if you pray and the child survives as a result then you have changed gods mind into sparing their life but that doesn't seem to fit in with my understanding of gods will as cast iron and unchangeable. when god decides to do something that's it, end of story.

how can you affect his decisions like this with prayer?

Wolfsbane, as a Calvinist, believes that God determines everything and so all that happens is according to his will.

However, I should point out that this does not represent the views of many (probably most) Christians. Everything that happens is not necessarily God's will, otherwise there would be no such thing as free will.

I certainly do not believe it is the will of God for any child to contract leukemia.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

cheers WN. i know its a bit 'back seat modding' of me.

No worries, I do (as I'm sure you all have noticed :pac:) have a tendency to argue and argue a point into the ground when I feel I'm right or being misrepresented. It tends to end up being rather counter-producive because everyone stops reading my posts except for the person I'm arguing with who never agrees with me anyway, so the odd cop on post is not only ok but often welcomed

vibe666

PDN wrote: »

Wolfsbane, as a Calvinist, believes that God determines everything and so all that happens is according to his will.

However, I should point out that this does not represent the views of many (probably most) Christians. Everything that happens is not necessarily God's will, otherwise there would be no such thing as free will.

I certainly do not believe it is the will of God for any child to contract leukemia.

I can't help but keep coming back to Wicknight's signature.

TravelJunkie

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

From what we understand about the nature of God - or what I believe, anyway - the whole 'aint got no time' thing wouldn't be a constraint for God because he is outside of time. Still, I often feel the same as yourself.

I think the emphasis is not on the nature of God, but rather on us. Time is a constraint for us, and giving time to God is a sacrifice we make for Him.

vibe666

PDN wrote: »

Wolfsbane, as a Calvinist, believes that God determines everything and so all that happens is according to his will.

However, I should point out that this does not represent the views of many (probably most) Christians. Everything that happens is not necessarily God's will, otherwise there would be no such thing as free will.

I certainly do not believe it is the will of God for any child to contract leukemia.

I'm finding it strange that as a believer you seem to be debating on the same side of this as wolfsbane yet your views on exactly what god is and how he interacts with the world are at odds with each other and pretty much mutually exclusive.

for your view of god to be correct wolfsbane's view must be wrong and visa versa. i know you follow the same book, but your interpretations of what's in it's pages seem to be very different and for one view to be correct the other must be incorrect and indeed a lot of other branches of christianity and particuarly every other brand of religion going from islam to hinduism etc. etc. must also all be wrong.

how can you be so sure your views are the right ones?

you mentioned talking with god before in prayer and hearing him and listening to him and I'm sure many other christians and various other faiths claim the same thing but for even one of those faiths to be 'the one true faith' means that the rest of you are basically just talking to yourselves (and listening) and you know what they say about people like that.

are you REALLY sure that YOU alone are right and following the version of god that actually exists then in a roundabout way you are saying that every other believer on the planet with a different faith than yourself is just talking to themselves and as a result pretty much just stark staring bonkers?

AND if you believe that, then what are the chances with all those millions of poor lost and deluded souls out there that you really really really are right and not just as much of a victim of a similarly (but a tiny bit different) deluded faith as everyone else?

Fanny Cradock

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I think the emphasis is not on the nature of God, but rather on us. Time is a constraint for us, and giving time to God is a sacrifice we make for Him.

Fair enough. I took Jimi's post as pertaining to God.

Wicknight wrote:

No worries, I do (as I'm sure you all have noticed ) have a tendency to argue and argue a point into the ground when I feel I'm right or being misrepresented. It tends to end up being rather counter-producive because everyone stops reading my posts except for the person I'm arguing with who never agrees with me anyway, so the odd cop on post is not only ok but often welcomed

Yeah, there does come a point where it's pointless to argue your position further. I generally just stop posting when I feel I reach that point. But I'm also considering signing off with a "peace out ya'll" before vanishing in a poof of logic at such occasions.

TravelJunkie

Wicknight wrote: »

Is it not evil in itself to permit such evil to happen if one has the ability to stop it?

Could I say that I didn't stop my son being sexually abused by his teacher because I wanted the rest of my children to know that sexual abuse happens and is bad? Do you think anyone here would have time for such a nonsense excuse for allowing my son to suffer?



What is with you guy and the focus on the punishment aspect. What is the point of punishment if one could have stopped the event in the first place.

Again using the example of my (theoretical) son, which do you think would be better for my son, if I allowed him to be sexual abused and then punished the teacher who did it, or if I stopped the sexual abuse in the first place.

Do you think in the former case my son would by thanking me because the teacher has been punished for what he did, or do you think he would be very angry that I had the power to stop the harm in the first place yet allowed it to happen, even if I then punished the abuser after he had harmed my son.



No, the odds point more to coincidence. If you are praying your brain is in the mode to assign purpose to non-connected events and you will see "intervention" everywhere.

I don't think God 'permits' evil. Evil exists (The ruler of this world). Evil is different to original sin. How could God prevent sexual abuse - as he can't prevent the abuser from doing it. The abuser is influenced by the world, not God.

Zombrex

TravelJunkie wrote: »

The abuser is influenced by the world, not God.

Not, as PDN points out, according to Wolfsbane who seems to take a Calvinistic approach to issues of free will.

But still, even taking a non-Calvinistic position, God still permits evil. To say otherwise would be to limit God, to suggest that his hands are tied some how. What ever the reason, and most Christians assume there is a good one, God permits evil and goes further by creating a universe that facilitates evil.

TravelJunkie

Wicknight wrote: »

Not, as PDN points out, according to Wolfsbane who seems to take a Calvinistic approach to issues of free will.

But still, even taking a non-Calvinistic position, God still permits evil. To say otherwise would be to limit God, to suggest that his hands are tied some how. What ever the reason, and most Christians assume there is a good one, God permits evil and goes further by creating a universe that facilitates evil.

I don't know if God's hands are tied. There are must be so many factors to why things are as they are... we can keep digging for answers but sometimes we're digging with a spoon.

Credit to you that you don't give up! I always come to a point where I believe my human intellect is beyond understanding the meaning of the universe, and God.

Pompey Magnus

Wicknight wrote: »

But still, even taking a non-Calvinistic position, God still permits evil. To say otherwise would be to limit God, to suggest that his hands are tied some how. What ever the reason, and most Christians assume there is a good one, God permits evil and goes further by creating a universe that facilitates evil.

I read a short piece by Mark Twain yesterday which deals with the question of God's inaction when it comes to evil, I thought he made his point well:

Thoughts of God

"It is plain that there is one moral law for heaven and another for the earth. The pulpit assures us that wherever we see suffering and sorrow which we can relieve and do not do it, we sin, heavily. There was never yet a case of suffering or sorrow which God could not relieve. Does He sin, then? If He is the Source of Morals He does -- certainly nothing can be plainer than that, you will admit. Surely the Source of law cannot violate law and stand unsmirched; surely the judge upon the bench cannot forbid crime and then revel in it himself unreproached. Nevertheless we have this curious spectacle: daily the trained parrot in the pulpit gravely delivers himself of these ironies, which he has acquired at second-hand and adopted without examination, to a trained congregation which accepts them without examination, and neither the speaker nor the hearer laughs at himself. It does seem as if we ought to be humble when we are at a bench-show, and not put on airs of intellectual superiority there."

PDN

vibe666 wrote: »

I'm finding it strange that as a believer you seem to be debating on the same side of this as wolfsbane yet your views on exactly what god is and how he interacts with the world are at odds with each other and pretty much mutually exclusive.

for your view of god to be correct wolfsbane's view must be wrong and visa versa. i know you follow the same book, but your interpretations of what's in it's pages seem to be very different and for one view to be correct the other must be incorrect and indeed a lot of other branches of christianity and particuarly every other brand of religion going from islam to hinduism etc. etc. must also all be wrong.

how can you be so sure your views are the right ones?

I'm not 100% sure that my views are the right ones. Like any poster I believe my views to be correct (as does any poster, we'd hardly argue about something if we thought we were wrong) but I'm always open to the possibility that I might be mistaken and Wolfsbane, or even Wicknight, might actually be right.

As for the fact that for one point to be true, other points must be false - unless we sink into the morass of postmodern relativism that will always be the case. As I see it we use our God-given brains to examine evidence and form our opinions, but we don't get bent all out of shape because somebody else thinks different from us.

you mentioned talking with god before in prayer and hearing him and listening to him and I'm sure many other christians and various other faiths claim the same thing but for even one of those faiths to be 'the one true faith' means that the rest of you are basically just talking to yourselves (and listening) and you know what they say about people like that.

are you REALLY sure that YOU alone are right and following the version of god that actually exists then in a roundabout way you are saying that every other believer on the planet with a different faith than yourself is just talking to themselves and as a result pretty much just stark staring bonkers?

AND if you believe that, then what are the chances with all those millions of poor lost and deluded souls out there that you really really really are right and not just as much of a victim of a similarly (but a tiny bit different) deluded faith as everyone else?

That is always a possibility. I think it unlikely, but it is possible that I am deluded. Maybe I am just an extraordinarily lucky individual who keeps experiencing wacky coincidences that correlate with what I pray for. If so, then I've certainly not lost out by the experience. My Christian faith has given me a wonderful life, a marriage that gets better and better after 22 years, a wonderful daughter, and a job that I love so much that I look foward to starting work every day. It's also given me some of the best and most loyal wonderful friends that any man could ever wish for.

So, even if I am deluded, I'm having a great life. Paschal's wager beats the odds again!

TravelJunkie

Charco wrote: »

I read a short piece by Mark Twain yesterday which deals with the question of God's inaction when it comes to evil, I thought he made his point well:

Thoughts of God

"It is plain that there is one moral law for heaven and another for the earth. The pulpit assures us that wherever we see suffering and sorrow which we can relieve and do not do it, we sin, heavily. There was never yet a case of suffering or sorrow which God could not relieve. Does He sin, then? If He is the Source of Morals He does -- certainly nothing can be plainer than that, you will admit. Surely the Source of law cannot violate law and stand unsmirched; surely the judge upon the bench cannot forbid crime and then revel in it himself unreproached. Nevertheless we have this curious spectacle: daily the trained parrot in the pulpit gravely delivers himself of these ironies, which he has acquired at second-hand and adopted without examination, to a trained congregation which accepts them without examination, and neither the speaker nor the hearer laughs at himself. It does seem as if we ought to be humble when we are at a bench-show, and not put on airs of intellectual superiority there."

I think there is a place and time for acceptance of things we do not fully understand. Surely this is the essence of faith.

TravelJunkie

If so, then I've certainly not lost out by the experience. My Christian faith has given me a wonderful life, a marriage that gets better and better after 22 years, a wonderful daughter, and a job that I love so much that I look foward to starting work every day. It's also given me some of the best and most loyal wonderful friends that any man could ever wish for.

[/QUOTE]

Exactly! It's a win win right? If some poor soul was going to fall into a terrible trap, Christianity would certainly be the ideal.

Pompey Magnus

TravelJunkie wrote: »

I think there is a place and time for acceptance of things we do not fully understand. Surely this is the essence of faith.

Out of interest why is that when God permits evil to happen the response is that we do not fully understand God's intentions, but when good things happen it is put down as proof that God loves us?

Why are both not treated equally? Either we can judge God's intentions from his actions or we can't.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

So, even if I am deluded, I'm having a great life. Paschal's wager beats the odds again!

Yes but think at how much happier you would be if you had all that and atheism as well :pac:

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes but think at how much happier you would be if you had all that and atheism as well :pac:

Ah, but when I had atheism I had none of that. For some reason the wonderful coincidences didn't start happening for me until I was deluded by Christianity.