I broke the law for the sake of ethics

MarkR

You broke the law, because you found it easier and convenient. Man up and pay the fine. Unless of course it is private property. And it has zero to do with ethics.

cormie

Of course it has, if you disobey the law because you feel what you're doing is right, then it's an ethical reason. Not that what I'm doing is going to save the world or anything, but you gotta start small :P

Darragh29

Anan1 wrote: »

From what you say, it sounds as though i'd have parked there too. Better pay the fine, though.:)

-1!. 200% OP, always appeal, confront this kind of public servant mentality down to the last breath... What are your grounds of appeal???

ninty9er

Darragh29 wrote: »

-1!. 200% OP, always appeal, confront this kind of public servant mentality down to the last breath... What are your grounds of appeal???

If you read the thread you'd know:rolleyes:

there's no point appealing without some sort of reason.

Darragh29

ninty9er wrote: »

If you read the thread you'd know:rolleyes:

there's no point appealing without some sort of reason.

First one is that it looks like he was on private property, hence no case to answer, case dismissed.

cormie

Ok, just an update on this.

Got onto council asked if they could tell me if it's private property or not, been about 2 weeks now and no word back (useless!)

was a bit delayed writing letter of appeal so the fine has increased to €60 from €40 and I've 11 days left before the 56 days are up. I dropped a letter into the Super Intendant in Blackrock on the 17th, which I got what seemed to be a template response to dated the 18th saying they are looking into it the next postal day. Then I got another response which must have been sent on the 19th as it arrived on Monday saying it's been decided not to cancel anything. So I'm guessing it wasn't even given any attention and I was just given two template responses.

This is the letter I sent anyway:



I sent the same letter to Clare, which I should have sent to Thurles I think, so they only got it forwarded to them yesterday. So I'm going to wait if the inspector there has a bit more finesse. Tempted to go to court :pac:

IrishRover

Good on you, Cormie. There's nothing "manly" about paying a fine. That's the easy and submissive route we Irish normally take because we don't have the guts to stand by our convictions and see them through. If you have principles, then the honourable man stands by them when they are tested.

You seem like a thoroughly honest person who is considerate of others and always tries to do the right thing. I wish you the best of luck with this. If no one stood up for themselves every so often, there would be no others afterwards who can subsequently benefit from the precedents that they set.

Seth Brundle

I wish you luck Cormie!
However, although you chose the spot to be considerate, etc., you did admit to it being illeagal and this may make it easier for a faceless person to turn around and say tough!

Cookie_Monster

As you've said before, in the time you spent chasing this and writing the thread you could've probly done at least one extra job, easily covering the cost of this.

Just include the cost in the next quote and move on:p

IrishRover

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

As you've said before, in the time you spent chasing this and writing the thread you could've probly done at least one extra job, easily covering the cost of this.

I think the money is the minor issue and it is more about the the principle here that rigid adherence to or enforcement of the law is not always the best course of action.

Just include the cost in the next quote and move on:p

That would be unethical.

OldmanMondeo

Cormie, I think your on to a hiding for nothing. You did park on a footpath, no matter that you did take time to ensure people can get past you van. You also caused an obstruction to the enterance beside the shop. Personally I think your better off paying the fine and maybe checking out with the local councils if it is possible to get a temperary permit to park in such a place.

on a side note, had it been a "newbie" posting this, they would have been lamblasted by many and told to pay the fine.

cormie

Thanks for the support folks

I don't think it would have been any different had I 10 or 10 thousand posts. The case is still the same regardless of who. I certainly wouldn't have lambasted anyone with the same story.

As Irish Rover put nicely:
"the principle here that rigid adherence to or enforcement of the law is not always the best course of action. "

Draupnir

Just a question Cormie, this wouldn't have been a rather upmarket Interiors shop you were helping to move would it?

cormie

Maybe How come?

Draupnir

I'm the traffic warden....


Only joking, I just know the shop you are talking about. It's part of the Blackrock Centre so you could have parked in there for free, or you could have parked across the road in the Loading Bay outside the Odd-Bins or you could have parked fifty yards up the road towards the Frascati Centre, on the opposite side to the shop in question.

I don't think, legally speaking, that you have a leg to stand on in this case. Also, that section of footpath is not belong to either of the shops you mentioned or the Blackrock Centre. So that idea is out the window.

I agree with you on one thing though, for the purposes of access and getting the job done, reversing up to the door of the store is ideal.

Darragh29

Just my 2 cents worth... If your going to court, you need to go on a technicality or on some defect with why you are there in the first place. If you're going hoping that they'll feel sorry for you on the day, then I think you'll be disappointed, however I very much admire your decision to pursue the matter and not bend over as most would do!

If I was in your position, I would argue (this may not be open to you now as per your lenghty letter!), that you was of the belief that this was private property you had parked on. Then it would be up to the council or whoever is prosecuting you, to prove to the contrary. Maybe the thoughts of spending a day in a planning office chasing down the land folio number and getting a site plan and all the rest of it would just not be worth the headache and they would drop the issue.

cormie

Got word back from the council that this part of the footpath belongs to the council so I think my only hope now is that the inspector in Thurles will share my opinion.

Yup Draupnir, I could have parked in these places but the only available space was about 100m away. As I said, I could have legally parked on double yellows right outside for 30 minutes but chose a non obstructive spot instead, it just happened to be a crime :P

VH

cormie wrote: »

As I said, I could have legally parked on double yellows right outside for 30 minutes

really?

the rules of the road say no parking on double yellow lines at all ever

daveharnett

My 2c:

There are a lot of laws. A LOT of them. More than most legal professionals can keep track of, hence the presence of specialists. Everyone in the country is legally expected to know all of them (on the basis that ignorance does not excuse a crime).

Faced with this contradiction what should we ordinary citizens, lacking in encyclopaedic legal knowledge do? I propose that if we (A) use common sense and (B) act in good faith, then we ought to be ok.

Based on his account, cormie did both and got shafted. My sympathies mate.

bungler

cormie its derek hope all is well. i know that women in blackrock she gave us a lot of hassle when we owned the shop down there. she is related to someone in blackrock guards and i got done before in blackrock with my van when i tried to appeal it the short answer i got was its illegal to park on a footpath no acceptions. i was also told that just because it was easy to park there you have to abide by the law and park in the loading bay which always has cars.

id be very careful with that woman and i think im right in saying she's a little small lady in her 50's.

better off paying the fine and keeping an eye out again pal

VH

i have said it before and noticed there was no comment

parking on a footpath creates a hazard for the blind

jc decaux was rightly blasted by the national council for the blind for erecting signs of a particular design that cant be felt by a stick at foot level - the back of a van is the same

i have noticed a bit of cute hoorism - keeping an eye out and such like - when really: parking on the footpath was plain wrong

cormie

VH wrote: »

really?

the rules of the road say no parking on double yellow lines at all ever

There's probably a disclaimer about the ROTR not being a representation of the law on that website somewhere and this is why.

Boards just happened to be the first result when googling "double yellow loading"

VH

cormie wrote:

Boards just happened to be the first result when googling "double yellow loading"

parking van footpath blind people

brings up this thread!

galwaytt

VH wrote: »

really?

the rules of the road say no parking on double yellow lines at all ever

Irrelevant - that's a link to a commercial school. The only link that's relevant is the one to statute - even the Rule of the Road aren't laws - they're only 'rules'. Some are backed by statute.........some are not.

VH

galwaytt wrote: »

Irrelevant - that's a link to a commercial school. The only link that's relevant is the one to statute - even the Rule of the Road aren't laws - they're only 'rules'. Some are backed by statute.........some are not.

many of our laws are inherited from our British masters - there is no mention in the ROR of this, so I was curious is it in the statute book - and it is

cormie

bungler wrote: »

cormie its derek hope all is well. i know that women in blackrock she gave us a lot of hassle when we owned the shop down there. she is related to someone in blackrock guards and i got done before in blackrock with my van when i tried to appeal it the short answer i got was its illegal to park on a footpath no acceptions. i was also told that just because it was easy to park there you have to abide by the law and park in the loading bay which always has cars.

id be very careful with that woman and i think im right in saying she's a little small lady in her 50's.

better off paying the fine and keeping an eye out again pal

Hey Derek, didn't see your post until now! Yup, that sounds like the same lady alright. The loading bay was indeed full at the time and it probably was just cars in it :rolleyes:

VH wrote: »

i have said it before and noticed there was no comment

parking on a footpath creates a hazard for the blind

jc decaux was rightly blasted by the national council for the blind for erecting signs of a particular design that cant be felt by a stick at foot level - the back of a van is the same

i have noticed a bit of cute hoorism - keeping an eye out and such like - when really: parking on the footpath was plain wrong

Again, I think it would have been less of a hazard for a blind person to feel the van with the stick, then for us to have blocked their path on the narrow foothpath we had to walk up to get to where the van was parked after, carrying furniture between us.


Anyway.... an update!...
I rang the Super intendant in Blackrock, simply to try and comprehend what his opinion was and how he didn't share mine. I rang the office three times I think, he was supposed to call me back yesterday but never did. So with 54 days gone (I think) and only 2 days left to pay the fine, I rang his office again and got through to the same lady, who remembered my name just from my voice which was pretty good. and she said he was out of the office, but she showed him the file and he cancelled it!!! So I'll be getting a letter now hopefully tomorrow to confirm this. Yeeha! hehe. Good to see anyway!

galwaytt

Hat's of to the Garda and common sense, then. It's a good idea to thank them, btw, once you get confirmation............ nice to be nice, and all that.....

cormie

Yup, was thinking of sending in a thank you letter alright. Just hope I get the confirmation of the cancellation soon as my 56 days are up at the end of the week:o

Blitzkrieger

afaik a parking warden can't give you a ticket if you're not actually on the road. A garda could do you for unsafe parking though.....

Our man in Havana

They can issue if you are not on the road. They can most definitely issue if you are parked on a footpath, i.e. parked in a manner prohibited.