Buying from UK .. Question re VAT (not VRT)

v10

Ok I'm thinking of buying a car from the UK; If the car was 1st registered in UK in January 2008 but only has 10 miles on the clock it is subject to VAT when imported. My question is, as I can't find info on this anywhere, What figure is the VAT based on ? The OMSP ? The UK Purchase price ?

i.e. for example lets say I'm buying for £20000 in the UK but car has OMSP of €40000.

.. would I pay VAT on £17021 (£20k less UK Vat @ 17.5%)

or
.. would I pay VAT on €33058 (€40k less Irish Vat @ 21%)

or
.. something else ?

??? ???

Can anyone with experience clear this up ?

bazz26

I would presume the VAT is calculated on the price the car costs here brand new before VAT. I'm open to correction though.

Stevie Dakota

You will be charged 21% of the UK invoice price. So get the lowest figure on the invoice that you can negotiate.

The VRT is then on top of this figure, you can calculate your VRT online.

https://www.ros.ie/VRTEnquiryServlet/showCarCalculator

v10

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

You will be charged 21% of the UK invoice price. So get the lowest figure on the invoice that you can negotiate.

Do you know this for a fact .. or are you assuming ? also what if its purchased privately, i.e. no invoice ?

Also I assume if its on the invoice price it will be the invoice price without the vat .. as they cant charge vat on vat afaik ?

Stevie Dakota

I brought in a new car from the UK 1 year ago. That was my experience at the VRT office.

If you have no invoice I have no idea what they do. Whatever it is I doubt it will be in your favour.

v10

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

I brought in a new car from the UK 1 year ago. That was my experience at the VRT office.

If you have no invoice I have no idea what they do. Whatever it is I doubt it will be in your favour.

Excellent thanks .. were you charged VAT on the whole invoice or the amount before the UK vat .. if you bought new there might not have been uk vat on it ?

Stevie Dakota

The UK VAT did not come into play with my purchase, thankfully.

To avoid the UK VAT you will need to -

Fill in HMR form 411 with your dealer, be sure to talk to them about this first

or

Supply the dealer with an Irish VAT number.

v10

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

The UK VAT did not come into play with my purchase, thankfully.

To avoid the UK VAT you will need to -

Fill in HMR form 411 with your dealer, be sure to talk to them about this first

or

Supply the dealer with an Irish VAT number.

Excellent Thanks.

Tipsy Mac

The car is 8months old, no VAT chargeable, checkout revenue.ie...

Examples
Vehicle 5 months old with 8,000km - chargeable to VAT

Vehicle 7 months old with 5,000km - chargeable to VAT

Vehicle 7 months old with 8,000km - not chargeable to VAT

Del2005

v10 wrote: »

Ok I'm thinking of buying a car from the UK; If the car was 1st registered in UK in January 2008 but only has 10 miles on the clock it is subject to VAT when imported. My question is, as I can't find info on this anywhere, What figure is the VAT based on ? The OMSP ? The UK Purchase price ?

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

The car is 8months old, no VAT chargeable, checkout revenue.ie...

Examples
Vehicle 5 months old with 8,000km - chargeable to VAT

Vehicle 7 months old with 5,000km - chargeable to VAT

Vehicle 7 months old with 8,000km - not chargeable to VAT

Wrong VAT is payable as car only has 10 miles on it. New car is classified as being less then 6 months old and having less then 6k km. So a 10 year old car with 5000km is classed as new by the EU, and therefore Ireland.

L1011

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

The car is 8months old, no VAT chargeable, checkout revenue.ie...

Examples
Vehicle 5 months old with 8,000km - chargeable to VAT

Vehicle 7 months old with 5,000km - chargeable to VAT

Vehicle 7 months old with 8,000km - not chargeable to VAT

8 months old with ten miles on the clock as the OP says... so there is VAT chargeable as your own examples show!

ninty9er

You would pay VAT on the ex-VAT invoice price in the UK calculated at the prevailing rate of exchange on that date AFAIK, though it may be the date of registration.

Stevie Dakota

As illustrated above from the advice above, make sure you are happy you have all thhe FACTS before doing anything. :rolleyes:

Padraig Mor

ninty9er wrote: »

You would pay VAT on the ex-VAT invoice price in the UK calculated at the prevailing rate of exchange on that date AFAIK, though it may be the date of registration.

AFAIK VAT is charged on the UK pre-VAT sterling price converted to euro at the VRO's prevailing official monthly exchange rate at the time registration (although I'm damned if I can remember where the rate is listed)

OR

you may pay VAT on the entire purchase cost to you in euro (i.e. including exchange fees) provided you have documentary evidence. It's therefore very worthwhile using a 'cheap' online exchange service such as xe.com. I believe that, officially at least, you need to tell them that you will be doing this in advance.

Tipsy Mac

Why not just get one of those mileage correction chaps to fix it to the "correct" mileage and then have him undo his work after it's VRT'd.

Esel

^ Nice of you to admit you were wrong!

TheWaterboy

Just quick query from reading through this.

Can someone buy say a 5 month old car in the UK, give their Irish VAT number to get the UK VAT taken off and then wait till the car is 6 months old and VRT it in Ireland.

Or can the UK VAT be only taken off on brand new cars

All very confusing

v10

TheWaterboy wrote: »

Just quick query from reading through this.

Can someone buy say a 5 month old car in the UK, give their Irish VAT number to get the UK VAT taken off and then wait till the car is 6 months old and VRT it in Ireland.

Or can the UK VAT be only taken off on brand new cars

All very confusing

Yes, I believe you could do this .. but you would be obliged to pay the VAT in Ireland also.

TheWaterboy

Can you just clarify why you would be obliged to pay VAT in Ireland.

Because you claimed it back from UK

OR

Because the car was only 5 months old when you bought it.



Would you get away with it this way:
Person buys 5 month old car from UK dealer
Person gives Irish VAT number and doesnt pay Irish VAT
Person receives all documents and invoices from the Dealer
Dealer gives Person extra 'hand written' invoice saying car was purchased at later date - car is now 6 months old
Person then presents this hand written invoice at VRT office on said date and pays VRT but no VAT

robbie99

TheWaterboy wrote: »

Can you just clarify why you would be obliged to pay VAT in Ireland.

Because you claimed it back from UK

OR

Because the car was only 5 months old when you bought it.



Would you get away with it this way:
Person buys 5 month old car from UK dealer
Person gives Irish VAT number and doesnt pay Irish VAT
Person receives all documents and invoices from the Dealer
Dealer gives Person extra 'hand written' invoice saying car was purchased at later date - car is now 6 months old
Person then presents this hand written invoice at VRT office on said date and pays VRT but no VAT

If you're registered for VAT in Ireland then you'd have an accountant that makes your VAT returns and would know whether or not you can be exempt from paying the VAT.

L1011

TheWaterboy wrote: »

C
Would you get away with it this way:
Person buys 5 month old car from UK dealer
Person gives Irish VAT number and doesnt pay Irish VAT
Person receives all documents and invoices from the Dealer
Dealer gives Person extra 'hand written' invoice saying car was purchased at later date - car is now 6 months old
Person then presents this hand written invoice at VRT office on said date and pays VRT but no VAT

You may 'get away' with it, but its fraud (falsified invoice). Not tax avoidance but pure evasion.

v10

TheWaterboy wrote: »

Can you just clarify why you would be obliged to pay VAT in Ireland.

Because you claimed it back from UK

OR

Because the car was only 5 months old when you bought it.



Would you get away with it this way:
Person buys 5 month old car from UK dealer
Person gives Irish VAT number and doesnt pay Irish VAT
Person receives all documents and invoices from the Dealer
Dealer gives Person extra 'hand written' invoice saying car was purchased at later date - car is now 6 months old
Person then presents this hand written invoice at VRT office on said date and pays VRT but no VAT

If you buy a car in the UK that is less than 6 months old or has less than 6000 kms on it you must pay vat in ireland. The age of the car is determined by the 1st registration in the uk not the invoice. If the car is over 6 months old and has more than 6000 kms , you wont be asked for an Invoice and Vat should even enter the conversation.

If you dont pay vat in the UK (or you claim it back) you are liable for Vat in Ireland. If you dont pay it then I assume you are committing fraud. You may get away with it but thats up to you.

kluivert

Right half truths flying about.

Two issues here with this; the UK Vat and the Irish Vat.

UK Vat
If the car is less than 3 months old (date of reg) in the UK you can ask the dealer to invoice you net of vat (no UK Vat). Dealer fills in Form 411, signed by you and a copy given to you. This states that you promise to pay the Vat in the country of import ie Ireland.

If the car is more than 3 months old you dont have this option. Full Stop.

Irish Vat
If the car is less than 6 months old (date of reg) in the UK or less than 6000 km, you must have the Irish Vat Rate at 21%. This is based on the UK Dealers Invoice which should also be the same on the Form 411 above. The Revenue have an exchange rate set each month so ring them to find out, Santry is the easiest to get through to.

So, £10000 (Invoice Amt) / .78 (FX Rate) = 12820 x 21% = 2692 Cheque made payable to Colletor Customs and Excise.

Obviously the clever people think there is an opportunity here to evade paying Vat as there is a three month gap between the UK rule and the Irish rule but remember last year the customs lifted all those nice cars because some rich dumb people thought they could get away with it, you have been warned!!

Private cars not Vat deductiable, only commerical vans etc, so supplying UK dealer with Vat number makes no difference what so ever.

If you buy privately, then I would recommend that you get written confirmation from the vendor of the sale price, but who buys a three month old car privately or who sells a three month old car in the uk privately either.

lynchie

kluivert wrote: »

Right half truths flying about.

Two issues here with this; the UK Vat and the Irish Vat.

UK Vat
If the car is less than 3 months old (date of reg) in the UK you can ask the dealer to invoice you net of vat (no UK Vat). Dealer fills in Form 411, signed by you and a copy given to you. This states that you promise to pay the Vat in the country of import ie Ireland.

If the car is more than 3 months old you dont have this option. Full Stop.

Irish Vat
If the car is less than 6 months old (date of reg) in the UK or less than 6000 km, you must have the Irish Vat Rate at 21%. This is based on the UK Dealers Invoice which should also be the same on the Form 411 above. The Revenue have an exchange rate set each month so ring them to find out, Santry is the easiest to get through to.

So, £10000 (Invoice Amt) / .78 (FX Rate) = 12820 x 21% = 2692 Cheque made payable to Colletor Customs and Excise.

Obviously the clever people think there is an opportunity here to evade paying Vat as there is a three month gap between the UK rule and the Irish rule but remember last year the customs lifted all those nice cars because some rich dumb people thought they could get away with it, you have been warned!!

Private cars not Vat deductiable, only commerical vans etc, so supplying UK dealer with Vat number makes no difference what so ever.

If you buy privately, then I would recommend that you get written confirmation from the vendor of the sale price, but who buys a three month old car privately or who sells a three month old car in the uk privately either.

How would it work if you did buy a 4 month old car privately? i.e. My friend buys new from a dealer for 50K, holds it for 4 months then sells it to me for £1 and issues me a receipt. Can I pay VAT on the invoice for £1 even though I know the car is worth a lot more than that. (I know stamp duty on properties sold below market value are still taxed on the revenue's valuation of it - I assume it aint the same with VAT collection?)

Stevie Dakota

kluivert wrote: »

Right half truths flying about.

Two issues here with this; the UK Vat and the Irish Vat.

UK Vat
If the car is less than 3 months old (date of reg) in the UK you can ask the dealer to invoice you net of vat (no UK Vat). Dealer fills in Form 411, signed by you and a copy given to you. This states that you promise to pay the Vat in the country of import ie Ireland.

If the car is more than 3 months old you dont have this option. Full Stop.

Irish Vat
If the car is less than 6 months old (date of reg) in the UK or less than 6000 km, you must have the Irish Vat Rate at 21%. This is based on the UK Dealers Invoice which should also be the same on the Form 411 above. The Revenue have an exchange rate set each month so ring them to find out, Santry is the easiest to get through to.

So, £10000 (Invoice Amt) / .78 (FX Rate) = 12820 x 21% = 2692 Cheque made payable to Colletor Customs and Excise.

Obviously the clever people think there is an opportunity here to evade paying Vat as there is a three month gap between the UK rule and the Irish rule but remember last year the customs lifted all those nice cars because some rich dumb people thought they could get away with it, you have been warned!!

Private cars not Vat deductiable, only commerical vans etc, so supplying UK dealer with Vat number makes no difference what so ever.

If you buy privately, then I would recommend that you get written confirmation from the vendor of the sale price, but who buys a three month old car privately or who sells a three month old car in the uk privately either.

Sorry Kluivert, I think you may be adding to the confusion! I am looking at a written correspondence from HM Revenue to myself on this very subject, it reads -

A Vehicle is classed as new for VAT purposes when it is less than 6 months old or has travelled under its own power for less than 6000km. If the vehicle is brand new the following guidance will apply,

If you business is registered for VAT in the Republic of Ireland the supply can be zero-rated provided the supplier shows your Irish VAT registration number on the invoice with the applicable country code pre-fix and holds valid commercial documents to show the vehicle has been removed from the UK within 2 months of supply.

If your business is not registered for VAT in the Republic you must comply with certain conditions to enure that thhe purchase of the vehicle is free of UK VAT. These are:
The means of transport must be “new”
You must personally take delivery of the new means of transport in the UK
You must remove if from the UK within two months of the date of supply; AND
You must complete and sign a declaration on a form VAR 411, stating your intention to remove the vehicle from the UK and pay any VAT dues in the Republic.

I hope that clarifies things for people.

Esel

lynchie wrote: »

How would it work if you did buy a 4 month old car privately? i.e. My friend buys new from a dealer for 50K, holds it for 4 months then sells it to me for £1 and issues me a receipt. Can I pay VAT on the invoice for £1 even though I know the car is worth a lot more than that. (I know stamp duty on properties sold below market value are still taxed on the revenue's valuation of it - I assume it aint the same with VAT collection?)

How old are you?

dannydif

i bought a car from england and kept it in northern ireland untill it was six months old and when i lookede about clearing it was asked to show the invoice i said i bought it private and was told to contact who i had bought it of and get their invoice as any car under 12months old had to show the invoice to make sure vat had been payed so its a very trcky one to get around and u have to get it right the first time because once u land at the vro with your car youre fu~kd if you dont have everything right and i know from experience i was lucky i was chattn over the phone and didnt give any details and was able to find a way around it so be very careful and study it up dont beleive everything you hear double check