NTL 20MB broadband... but my download speed is 948kb/s (speedtest.net) :-/

calmoo

Is anyone getting throttled on torrents? I'm getting 15kb/s on a 1000 seeder 100 leecher torrent.

J-blk

calmoo wrote: »

Is anyone getting throttled on torrents? I'm getting 15kb/s on a 1000 seeder 100 leecher torrent.

If you take a look through this thread and many others on UPC, you'll find that there seem to be conflicting reports - up to 2 weeks ago, I was maxing out my connection at 2.2Mb on private trackers. Now, most torrents can't reach above 200Kbps on a single torrent, with the max (if I start a few together) being 400Kbps total, way down from what it was. Others here have been reporting much worse speeds than that, yet others have no problems. To make things even more confusing, I can't say if my lower torrent speeds have anything to do with throttling, because I am having speed problems with everything, HTTP, FTP, etc most of the time.

I emailed UPC on Tuesday to complain about the problems and informing them that I will dump them if this continues, but no surprise, no answer as of yet (though usually it takes them 4-5 working days or more to respond to an email).

The-Game

masterK wrote: »

Since I got upgraded to the 10Mb service I've never got speeds of over 6Mb, I was in contact with customer support who said I was definitely on the 10Mb package. I can pretty much always get 500-600kBs as I could before the upgrade so it looks like I'm still on the 6Mb package. I've connected directly to the modem which was only recently replace by UPC.

Any ideas?

Make sure your connecting through the Ethernet port as if your using the USB port even on a 10mb line youl get 6mb max as USB cant handle higher then that!

mrooqie

J-blk wrote: »

If you take a look through this thread and many others on UPC, you'll find that there seem to be conflicting reports - up to 2 weeks ago, I was maxing out my connection at 2.2Mb on private trackers. Now, most torrents can't reach above 200Kbps on a single torrent, with the max (if I start a few together) being 400Kbps total, way down from what it was. Others here have been reporting much worse speeds than that, yet others have no problems. To make things even more confusing, I can't say if my lower torrent speeds have anything to do with throttling, because I am having speed problems with everything, HTTP, FTP, etc most of the time.

I emailed UPC on Tuesday to complain about the problems and informing them that I will dump them if this continues, but no surprise, no answer as of yet (though usually it takes them 4-5 working days or more to respond to an email).

Few things here i want to say

1.) HTTP
I must use FlashGet all the time to get good speed. For exaple apple.com/trailers
- Quicktime player directly from the site - ~300KB - must waint ages until u can open it
- FlashGet 10 channels 2650 KB/s - 110 mb done in less than 2 mins
Ok i know how to get around that but what about ordinary people who want to watch these nice trailers and not only trailers. I must use Flashget on each website where i can copy links from!


2.) torrent
Private site - never can get higher than 900-1000KB/s no matter what i try - diff ports, diff encrypting methods (utorrent 1.8) no way to get higher than 10mbps


Are any one of you guys knows any way to get torrents up to full speed they offer:?

Cheers

Edit:
To proof how much lovely NTL cuts torrents please see below: 1 - my 20 meg NTL , 2 - remote desktop to a server in other EU country with 12meg cable broadband
Same private tracker, same torrent, same time,same settings

1ntl

2
BB

masterK

The-Game wrote: »

Make sure your connecting through the Ethernet port as if your using the USB port even on a 10mb line youl get 6mb max as USB cant handle higher then that!

It's definitely connected directly through the Ethernet port.

ROC1977

They are throttling torrents. Doesn't matter what you do you won't get good speeds, until someone works out a new encryption method. Or use a remote server which you'll have to pay for. And if you do that you might as well get a rapidshare account.

The main problem with UPC is they advertise 20meg but luck to get even 10meg. Not that 10meg is slow, but why should I have to pay for half the service I'm getting billed for.

lafors

ROC1977 wrote: »

They are throttling torrents. Doesn't matter what you do you won't get good speeds, until someone works out a new encryption method. Or use a remote server which you'll have to pay for. And if you do that you might as well get a rapidshare account.

The main problem with UPC is they advertise 20meg but luck to get even 10meg. Not that 10meg is slow, but why should I have to pay for half the service I'm getting billed for.

Well Rapidshare ain't working for me.
I've had a paid account for a good while now, always worked a treat, then stopped working about 2 weeks ago.
I get 0kb/s!!!
Initially it would connect, get full speed, and within a minute the log would say, disconnected from server, then again and again until it completely stops.
They are somehow also blocking RS.
I presume it wouldn't be hard, all they'd need is a RS account and get the IP of each of their servers then block them..........I would assume that's how it works anyway? (my knowledge of networking is limited obviously )

ROC1977

Are you using wireless by any chance. I'm having no problem with an ethernet connection with rapidshare. They can't really go and block rapidshare as can be used for legit downloads. I often upload photos and home videos for my sister to download in the uk.

AlmightyCushion

Ricky91t wrote: »

No offence people but your wireless routers must be quite crap!While i was in the UK i was on virgin 20mb connection,Via wireless i would get 14-16mb and wired 19-20mb,that was on 1 bar of signal using a belkin wireless G+ pcmcia card and a netgear rangemax router...

I'm pretty sure the rangemax and belkin g+ offer speeds of upto 125Mbps where as a standard g router offers speeds of upto 54Mbps. Now these are theoretical maximum so in reality you'll never get these speeds but the fact you were using wireless technology that supports faster speeds is probably why you got full speed over wireless.

Sudsy86

Hi all,

I have a recomendation for all of ye using wireless...The Netgear 1 aerial router(as most seem to refer to it as) has a capacity for more than 20MB...Of course netgear aint the best router on the market but u should not be seeing below 6MB on your wireless...
I had the same issue as ye with my wireless and after alot of research i came across this program that u can download onto your computer called a TCP Optimiser...I downloaded this and ran it...Now i am getting 18 to 19MB...Now i gave this link to a mate of mine and her tried it and had no luck with it but i was happy enough...I dont have time to search for the link on this but if u google TCP Optimiser you should find no problem...As far as i am aware the issue is cause by the TCP setting on your network card and this program will optimise it for you...No harm caused by trying this...

Hope this helps...

lafors

ROC1977 wrote: »

Are you using wireless by any chance. I'm having no problem with an ethernet connection with rapidshare. They can't really go and block rapidshare as can be used for legit downloads. I often upload photos and home videos for my sister to download in the uk.

Both are the same unfortunately (in Dublin 9 for reference)
As soon as I came to work this evening and picked up the office wireless, it started downloading. They're definitely doing something.

J_Dublin15

Absloutely dreadful in D15 tonight, 80kbps download 1246kbps upload, totally nuts, connection keeps cutting in and out, huge packet loss as well, performance really has been crap the last couple of weeks, looks like they have too many subscribers.

root69

I think is very often that alot of people complains abour the NTl speed.. I think if you look at it over the all month do you get 20Mb in the majority of the days?

i mean, I think we all know that its 20MB/24 or 48 but sometimes it gets really weird scores.. very low..
Is anything we can do about it?

Irishdudedave

Sudsy86 wrote: »

Hi all,

I have a recomendation for all of ye using wireless...The Netgear 1 aerial router(as most seem to refer to it as) has a capacity for more than 20MB...Of course netgear aint the best router on the market but u should not be seeing below 6MB on your wireless...
I had the same issue as ye with my wireless and after alot of research i came across this program that u can download onto your computer called a TCP Optimiser...I downloaded this and ran it...Now i am getting 18 to 19MB...Now i gave this link to a mate of mine and her tried it and had no luck with it but i was happy enough...I dont have time to search for the link on this but if u google TCP Optimiser you should find no problem...As far as i am aware the issue is cause by the TCP setting on your network card and this program will optimise it for you...No harm caused by trying this...

Hope this helps...

Used this and now im getting a solid 19Mb all over my house on wireless... Thanks Sudsy

ROC1977

TCP optimiser is for windows XP. Vista should auto adjust TCP. But you can still run it. But you'll find on Vista it changed very little.

Heres a good one for ya. Myself and a Friend live on the same street, with the same PC an the same 20meg line. I get dl's of 950-1000kbps and he's getting 2300kbps from the same rapidshare files???

Another thing I've heard from sources in UPC/Chorus that they are going to give up on the torrent throttling due to 1000's of complaints to them, people are saying they are changing to a different provider. So it looks like they are starting to cop on. So hopefully we'll see a change sooner rather than later!

mrooqie

I WANT TO BELIEVE IT!

upthecake

ROC1977....you are in dreamland if you think they will give it up as there is not thousands complaining i hear on the grapevine...

Looking throught the threads on here there is a variety of issue's from games to P2P, if they took their shaping off their network would fall over..
I'm afraid i've said this before but its always a few who spoil it for the rest.

I have a 20mb UPB BB and my P2P speeds are fine depending on what kind of BW the users on the far end have... Some Torrents are relatvely slow and some are really good at 300-1000 kbtis which shows the speeds are there but the BW is not on a lot of torrents, i see people are saying they would dump the service but where else will i get a better service / Dl speed as i'm not aware of any other provider outside dublin :-)
Please tell me if you know... If the abusers dump the service maybe just maybe us USERS will get the speeds back and the ABUSERS can frig off elsewhere... I've been folowing the threads now for sosme time and did a bit of research on other ISP's in europe and thet have all mentioned that 5% of the subscriber base takes the piss and ruins it for the rest...

Is this the trend appearing here ????

ROC1977

lol So your a USER and the rest of US are ABUSERS. Because when you use torrents its ok? haha
So define the difference because to me, theres no difference between me and you.
And by the way 1000kbps is a **** speed on a 20meg line.
And Smart have 24meg outside of Dublin.
70% of internet traffic is p2p based. And there are plenty of legal reasons people use torrents. BBC Iplayer, 4OD, Sky on demand, and IPTV just to name a few.
If I want to download 100gig a month I will and if UPC have a problem with it they should have set a monthly download cap. Torrents aside UPC service has yet to preform to the 20meg service they advertise.

And I was only posting what I've heard from friends in IT in UPC about the torrent throttling. Not that I said it WAS going to happen. You posting info and hear say. You know that what forums are about.

J-blk

upthecake wrote: »

Some Torrents are relatvely slow and some are really good at 300-1000 kbtis which shows the speeds are there but the BW is not on a lot of torrents, i see people are saying they would dump the service but where else will i get a better service / Dl speed as i'm not aware of any other provider outside dublin :-)

Please tell me if you know... If the abusers dump the service maybe just maybe us USERS will get the speeds back and the ABUSERS can frig off elsewhere... I've been folowing the threads now for sosme time and did a bit of research on other ISP's in europe and thet have all mentioned that 5% of the subscriber base takes the piss and ruins it for the rest...

On a 20Mbps connection, a good torrent can reach 2.2MB down - 300Kbps is a joke. If you look at most of the threads here, people are not only complaining about torrent speeds - since the latest batch of "upgrades", people (myself included) have had terrible overall speeds (even browsing), high pings, random downtime, etc.

And all this crap about "abusers" is nonsense - there are a number of providers around Europe that provide truly unlimited broadband without such problems. If UPC has so many problems with "abusers", they should not have offered a higher speed/no cap product compared to their previous offerings. The problem here is that they are overselling their own network and don't have the capacity for it - that's their problem to sort out, not ours.

upthecake

Guys you talking rubbish.... The Abusers is fact as the studies are out there...

BBC i player etc all use P2P for sure but this is unavailable outside so how or why you bring this into conversation is STUPID. Ridiculous argument...

I don't see any complaints about the LEGAL sh*t its all about the illegal sh*t i see on here..... Count how many REAL complaints on on these threads and you will see its a tiny amount as per usual... ALL ABUSERS FOR SURE I BET... Real service issue's are real service issue's but my speeds have burst above 300kbits last night and today so i don't see the issue with Throttling.. even the moderator on here is above 1000k so maybe you have a service issue and not a Throttling issue ??

Some people just don't have a clue i have to say !!

Thats my twopence anyhows.

J-blk

upthecake wrote: »

Guys you talking rubbish.... The Abusers is fact as the studies are out there...

Really? What studies are those? Stop reporting rumors and hearsay as fact.

upthecake wrote: »

Real service issue's are real service issue's but my speeds have burst above 300kbits last night and today so i don't see the issue with Throttling.. even the moderator on here is above 1000k so maybe you have a service issue and not a Throttling issue ??

Like I said, 300Kbps and even 1000Kbps on a 20Mbps connection is still less than half your maximum attainable speed. I already mentioned above that I have service issues overall and that's my main issue with UPC's latest upgrades, not torrent speeds. I am getting nowhere near the service I am paying for with crap speeds and downtime.

upthecake wrote: »

Some people just don't have a clue i have to say !!

You do realize this is public forum and people are entitled to different opinions right? Just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I don't have a clue. If you are so happy with your connection then great, but don't come here to tell everyone else that they talking b******t because they are not happy with shoddy service.

upthecake

Hey Mate,

Don't be so paranoid it wasn't
pointed at you ???


My comments whether you like them or not are
FACT... go look in google for ISP reports on P2P and
don't be so lazy calling what i say RUMOUR.
I've read these online so know exa
ctly what i'm mentioning. Just because you don't have a clue means the rest of us don't .....

Get informed my paranoid friend... Now getting back to P2P...
Does anyone get above 1000k on any other provider as i'd like to know... I have seen 2
Mbit 3 weeks ago on UPC but not since then...

azezil

Prepare for another speed drop, we just signed up for the 20mb package, also in D15. Wishing I'd read this thread before ordering it now :pac:

J-blk

upthecake wrote: »

My comments whether you like them or not are
FACT... go look in google for ISP reports on P2P and
don't be so lazy calling what i say RUMOUR.
I've read these online so know exa
ctly what i'm mentioning. Just because you don't have a clue means the rest of us don't .....

Get informed my paranoid friend...

Once again, you're not backing anything up - I don't need to google so-called "reports" that have no factual backup, yet you like to claim they are and can't be bothered to back them up either. And yet again, you are becoming insulting, that I don't have a clue and I'm paranoid...

You know what? I don't give a flying f**k about your opinion either, just as you don't about mine or anybody's who doesn't agree with you.

Aquos76

My torrent speeds are back up to 1.1mb today. My speeds had dropped off to 200/300kbps over the past few days, however I just pulled a a 360mb file down in less than 6 mins

ROC1977

Looks like talking out of my arse is proving to be true maybe the torrent throttling is being stopped. Who knows? Anyone elses speeds up today.
20meg line is still only giving me 10meg on speed test. I wonder if UPC have me on a 10meg package by mistake. I'll ring again tomorrow. . Haven't tried torrents, I'll try tonight when I get home. If I get 1mb on torrents tonight then all I need to do is sort my over all package speed.

No point listening to upthecake every post he makes is negative. He's read a few blogs on the internet, now he's an expert.

unklerosco

ROC1977 wrote: »

20meg line is still only giving me 10meg on speed test. I wonder if UPC have me on a 10meg package by mistake.

Log into ur wireless router or modem n check... I remember Eircom gave me a 1meg line instead of a 2 meg... Took me ages to figure out why my speeds where so crap...

J-blk

ROC1977 wrote: »

20meg line is still only giving me 10meg on speed test. I wonder if UPC have me on a 10meg package by mistake.

Which speed test are you using? I find the Magnet one to be a bit more reliable:

http://speedtest.magnet.ie/

However, right now, it gives me 8Mbps down, which is not surprising, since we're going into peak times (lately it always gets worse moving closer to 18:00) but if I try the test early morning/late night, I get 19Mbps quite often. Maybe try it first thing in the morning?

I'm currently seeing about 1.3MB down on a well seeded torrent, a massive improvement from the 300-400Kbps I've had for at least two weeks.

mrooqie

all right
magnet speed test

Last Result:
Download Speed: 7482 kbps (935.3 KB/sec transfer rate)
Upload Speed: 1367 kbps (170.9 KB/sec transfer rate)


Sandyford 19:30
same for the last week
never seen more than 10 megs in the evenings

but this was just a speed test
the real is much worse:



2,790,495 144.90K/s ETA 9:19:10
unacceptable!

try it guys
http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/4.0_r4a/i386/iso-dvd/debian-40r4a-i386-DVD-1.iso

this is very fast server http

upthecake

Hey Mr ROC here's a little treat for you as you seem to know NISH about
anything got to do with BB ...

Step by Step here as you need some training.

Log directly into your Modem via 192.168.100.1 (could be another address so please check online before you spout some other rubbish)

Look at the "Modem Status" and you should see cm_ultra.bin as i'm on a 20mb and this is my config file.... (by the way this is also found online in case you doubt me)

If you don't have a Scientific Atlanta the same can be found on the Motorola Cable Modem's ..Cisco Cable Modem's... Ambit Cable Modems ...
Arris etc etc etc etc ... Ha ha ha ha ...

You should try Google its a great tool ... TOOL get it !!

Only joking :-)

If you service is bad you can also get a Docsis TOOL to examine your cable modem RF network which can be installed on your PC ..

Happy Googling !!

upthecake

J-blk wrote: »

Once again, you're not backing anything up - I don't need to google so-called "reports" that have no factual backup, yet you like to claim they are and can't be bothered to back them up either. And yet again, you are becoming insulting, that I don't have a clue and I'm paranoid...

You know what? I don't give a flying f**k about your opinion either, just as you don't about mine or anybody's who doesn't agree with you.

J-blk are you on the man rag or what... serious attitude issue's there my friend...

Do you honestly think i'm going to add ISP studies to this thread ??
I wouldn't put the peeps on this forum through it :-)

ROC1977

I don't doubt you cake. Your quite right in what your saying about checking my modems page. I checked it last week, and it said I have the 20meg connection. To be honest my PC has been playing up past few weeks and probably needs a bit of attention. Everything seems to be running slow, not just the internet. Thinking about it, its been slow since I got it. But it was my first PC running on Vista so I didn't think too much about it.
I mean UPC say I've 100% signal, I've the area booster on the wall of my house, I'm half thinking about re installing windows XP.
I mean take this for an example. Transfered a avi 350mb to a USB key today via USB 2.0. Took 5mins 30secs. No thats taking the piss, 2.0 is meant to be 400mps isn't it.

upthecake

ROC1977 wrote: »

I don't doubt you cake. Your quite right in what your saying about checking my modems page. I checked it last week, and it said I have the 20meg connection. To be honest my PC has been playing up past few weeks and probably needs a bit of attention. Everything seems to be running slow, not just the internet. Thinking about it, its been slow since I got it. But it was my first PC running on Vista so I didn't think too much about it.
I mean UPC say I've 100% signal, I've the area booster on the wall of my house, I'm half thinking about re installing windows XP.
I mean take this for an example. Transfered a avi 350mb to a USB key today via USB 2.0. Took 5mins 30secs. No thats taking the piss, 2.0 is meant to be 400mps isn't it.

Best thing to do is try a friends laptop,PC or mac, if this does not work install a dual partition in Vista and XP so you can boot between both and troubleshoot ... If 350mb took that long then sounds like you have an issue... i can do 900mb in that time or less on XP + USB 2.0 key ..
That will be fun troubleshooting ... NOT ! Best to just wipe it i'd say :-)

J-blk

upthecake wrote: »

I wouldn't put the peeps on this forum through it :-)

Yes, instead you put us through meaningless crap about the rest of us being abusers and cramping your style... Anyway, I really don't care what you have to say, you're the one that has no clue what their talking about. As for attitude problems, I'm not the one posting replies that people are lazy, stupid, etc...

AlmightyCushion

ROC1977 wrote: »

Transfered a avi 350mb to a USB key today via USB 2.0. Took 5mins 30secs. No thats taking the piss, 2.0 is meant to be 400mps isn't it.

It also depends on the speed of the usb drive, some cheaper ones are very slow. Also the 400Mbps is max burst speed, it will never sustain speeds that high for very long if it hits them at all.

ROC1977

The usb key I have is fairly good one (i think) 8gb Amacom. God knows the model type. But works 10x faster on my notebook. I've tried updating drivers and tyred all 10 USB ports on my PC. Everytime I get a bubble bottom right saying "using USB port 2.0 will increase transfer speeds" or something along those lines. PC isn't even a year old so so a few of the ports have to be 2.0. I wonder if the is a hardware fault. Looks like I'll have to open the PC up tomorrow on my day off and have a look.

Upthecake i've tried my notebook connected to the modem and thats worse only 2meg on speedtest.net but upload still 1400kbps. Although my notebook is about 6 years old.
I think I'll move all my stuff onto my D drive and format the C drive and reinstall windows. Still not sure which windows to use though. XP is way faster, but Vista i find is better when you have a 7 year old that uses the PC...
Wait a minute... maybe my kids profile has a Virus or malware or something. Never thought of that. Anyway i'll have a bit of time to sort it over the next few day. Thanks all for your input. I'll let you know if I brick my PC or not!!! lol

ROC1977

Was just talking to one of the lads here in IT and he said simply move any data I want to keep onto my D drive and restart the PC and hit F8. That opens advance boot settings and then hit the Dell restore factory default image and it will reinstall Vista the way it was shipped . i.e reformats and reinstalls Vista. Which sounds nice and handy. I'll do that tonight, lets hope it sort out my internet and USB problems!!

HungryJoey

I'm getting ok speeds on speedtest.net, but it is totally impossible to play a game online, MSN signs out randomly throughout the day! Whats going on!! :mad:

ROC1977

Just tried to check my modem status online and the only screen I can look at is SYSTEM. All the others say not allowed view contact cable company???

J-blk

Which modem do you have? I have one of the much older NTL-branded ones, NTL 250 (which is essentially a rebadged Ambit U10C018) and when I connect to it via 192.168.100.1, all I get is very basic information until I use the "Login" link to enter the main administration options. I don't know what UPC are giving people these days, but do you have to enter a user name/password when connecting to it? Most modems/routers, etc require that before you can access most of the available information/options.

BTW, torrents this morning (at around 6:30) are all the way back up to 2.2MB download speeds, so I don't know what's going on regarding throttling, etc. As I mentioned before, up to yesterday, the speeds were peaking at 300-400Kbps for the last few weeks.

unklerosco

ROC1977 wrote: »

Just tried to check my modem status online and the only screen I can look at is SYSTEM. All the others say not allowed view contact cable company???

Thats right... If u can see those pages ur connection aint right.. As I found out as I could always see them

Sudsy86

Hey Guy,

I left infor here earlier on how to increase your transfer speed using the TCP Optimiser...I have another ferw tricks for torrents that some might find handy other may not see results...Hit me up on a PM as i dont have time to browse much for replies...Ill try explain as best as possible how i do this and for example...I downloaded the get smart film recently...It was 719MB in size and it took 8minutes...I'm on the UPC 20MB package...i Never have problems with torrents or gaming...I know ye all seem to be in Dublin...Im in Limerick and my connection is a Breeze...Im sure i can help some of ye out...But be nice hehe

As for those complaining anout torrents...I understand where ye are coming from but dont get 2 upset over it cause it could be worse...Just be happy that nobody got killed during this whole experience...Be positive and realise that there are tricks out there...Ye may not know them but in the words of another user on here..."google is a great tool"...Its not what u know its how u use it:):):)

ROC1977

My broadband is finally sorted. After reinstalling vista, setting up a static ip, port forwarding ports, updated drivers, read endless forums, guides, posts, moved my router as far away from my modem as the ethernet would let me, etc etc. But after days of trying different things. Finally. And now getting 30meg speeds?? Don't ask me what I did. lol 6pm now and speed test is giving me about 30meg, which I doubt is right. I'll try download from rapidshare and see. Also torrents up to about 900kbps which isn't the best but not too bad at all.

try http://myspeed.visualware.com/servers/dub.html instead

pbirney

I find this site to be the most accurate for speed tests:

http://www.irishisptest.com/runmyspeed.php


~Paul.

christophicus

I can't even load up speedtest.net .


Quit stealing my bandwidths !!!!

RoosterIllusion

The speed your line is sold as is actually a case of them being able to provide you with up to that speed.

So if you have a 20mb line and you get 5mb from it, that's part of the deal.

ROC1977

just checked the two speed tests you lads posted. And getting about the 19meg mark on both at 11pm and the same on magnet. Rapidshare dl'ing at 2.2mb and torrents 1.2mb. So I'm happy with that and I leave all my settings alone now. While the goings good.:D

J-blk

ROC1977 wrote: »

So I'm happy with that and I leave all my settings alone now. While the goings good.:D

I'm still not sure if it has anything to do with settings though - up to the 10th of October, my speeds were absolutely terrible for a couple of weeks. Since then, it's been fine and I'm seeing speeds up to 2.3MB down very often so it does seem like UPC were messing with something for awhile but it's all good now and hopefully will stay that way . I didn't have to change any of my settings during the problems though (nothing worked anyway) and it eventually just sorted itself out.

ROC1977

I'd say your right. No harm anyway my system needed cleaning up. Vista for the first time since I got the PC last year is running fast.
Happy days for now. lol