badgers

whitser

theres a bit of debate on the nature forum about badgers and the cull. just wondering what are farmers views on badgers and culling them.
what experiences have farmers had with badgers?
-tb
-losing stock(i've heard they;ll take lambs and fowl sometimes)
-digging up fields etc....?
whats your view on them? do you not mind an odd one knocking around,leave them all alone or cull as many as possible?

reilig

whitser wrote: »

theres a bit of debate on the nature forum about badgers and the cull. just wondering what are farmers views on badgers and culling them.
what experiences have farmers had with badgers?
-tb
-losing stock(i've heard they;ll take lambs and fowl sometimes)
-digging up fields etc....?
whats your view on them? do you not mind an odd one knocking around,leave them all alone or cull as many as possible?

Badgers are mostly assosicted with the spread of TB. If some of your cattle go down with TB, the Dept. will contract humane badger trappers to trap a sample of badgers within your townland or surrounding townlands. (usually where the farmer thinks most badgers are living). In 2007, 90% of badgers caught on farms that had cattle that failed the tb test, failed the tb test also. Its a well know fact that badgers drink from cattle troughs and eat from creep feeders- - and spread disease. I have seen on 3 occasions where different farmers found a dead badger in the feeding passage of their sheds and by their next tb test, most of the cattle closest to where the badger was found went down with tb.

Farmers do not have a problem with badgers, they rarely kill fowl or lamb and any digging that they do is minimal. The main problem is carrying disease. Farmers in our area try to cull badgers as much as possible in recent years and we subsequently have a very low tb rate. The easiest method is commonly known as the "Calor Gas" methos. It involves closing burrows and filling them up with gas to smother the badger and it means that they won't doe above ground and spread more disease. Personally, I am in favour of badger culling because I know how devastating tb can be on farms, and I hate to see cows going for slaughter because they have tb. I know that some people are against badger culling, but its a matter of survival.

rosiec

reilig wrote: »

In 2007, 90% of badgers caught on farms that had cattle that failed the tb test, failed the tb test also.
Farmers in our area try to cull badgers as much as possible in recent years and we subsequently have a very low tb rate. The easiest method is commonly known as the "Calor Gas" methos. It involves closing burrows and filling them up with gas to smother the badger and it means that they won't doe above ground and spread more disease. .

I'd be interested to know where you got 90% from? As far as i'm aware its much lower than that.

And btw if your caught killing bader or interfering with their setts you can be prosecuted. Badgers (and their setts) are protected under the Wildlife Act thats why Dept of Ag guys need special licences to cull the animals.

reilig

rosiec wrote: »

I'd be interested to know where you got 90% from? As far as i'm aware its much lower than that.

And btw if your caught killing bader or interfering with their setts you can be prosecuted. Badgers (and their setts) are protected under the Wildlife Act thats why Dept of Ag guys need special licences to cull the animals.

I got the 90% from my O/H who works in the Lab in Sligo where they test the badgers that the Dep of Ag catch. IN fact that's the average. In winter months, the figure can be as high as 95%. This is because the damp and cold weather promotes the spread of this disease.
I did not say that 90% of all badgers in the country had tb, I said that 90% of badgers caught on farms that lost cattle to tb tested positive for tb.

I know that there are wildlife acts out there to protect animals like badgers, but in all fairness, how are they being enforced? If you prosecuted every hunter / farmer / interested person who interfered with sets or burrows belonging to wildlife, you would have to prosecute most of the population of rural Ireland. Wildlife acts were deliberately created very loosely to ensure that people who need to cull wildlife that are damaging their crops or stock are not prosecuted. This is an unspoken fact.

On our home farm, we have gotten a permit a number of times on the basis of Dep of Ag caught badgers which failed the lab test. So all of the culling that we have done has been legal, but I am aware of other farms where it has been done under the cover of darkness.

Personally I have a very narrow opinion on this. In my last post, I explained how I knew of farmers who had lost cattle because tb infected badgers had died on their feedlots and subsequently infected their cattle. Do you know what its like for a farmer to lose all of his cattle to TB? If you want an example, it would be like if you owned a garage with 100 cars for sale and you came to work to find that all 100 had been stolen and then when you contacted your insurance company, they tell you that they will only compensate you for 40% of the value. You would bulk up your security for the future, would you not?
In the same way farmers who lose cattle to tb bulk up their security by removing badgers from their lands. If you check out Dep of Ag statistics on TB in Ireland, you will notice that the % of population of cattle that have to be destroyed is falling every year suggesting that we have got some control over this disease. In fact we have got control of it, and we can say that this % fall of TB in animals is directly related to the culling of badgers by farmers. Be it legally by obtaining permits to do so, or illegaly under the cover of night.

At the end of the day, I'm a farmer, the welfare of my cattle and sheep is paramount to me. If there are badgers on my land at risk of spreading tb to my animals, I will do what I have to do to make sure that my animals survive, be it legal or somewhat illegal (ask any farmer, he/she will tell you the same). Most farmers treat their animals almost human like because we know that they are our "bread and butter" and we know that the better they are treated, the more return they will give us. If we see dogs, fox's or mink attacking our sheep, our first instinct is to take out the shotgun (legally held) and take them out of it. Its no different for badgers, if they are a danger to our animals, we have to take them out.

As I said, my view is narrow because I am a farmer. An environmentalist may have a different view to me. And I respect that, but i am entitled to my own too.

rosiec

Dude calm down! I wasnt attacking you or making little of your views. I simply asked a question.

I queried the 90% statistic because i work in this area and from my study and a previous one from UCD the highest % of TB positive badgers is 50% in badly infected areas, falling to 30% over the rest of the country. I'm a scientist, i'm on a quest for knowledge . Again i'm not saying your other half is wrong with the 90%, its possible that the badgers they test are ones found dead on farms whereas my data would come from those culled over the whole country. I just find it interesting that there's such a huge difference.

The Wildlife Act is there to prevent people going gungho on a particular species. It just seemed a bit unwise to tell all and sundery what people do illegally in your area to badgers given the more rabid views of some posters.

snowman707

We have a large number of badger sets on one side of the farm

we have never lost lambs to a badger attack

they can actually do considerable damage by digging & rooting, as they are nocturnal animals most of this happens during the long nights of winter.

We lost over 60% of our herd early 1984 with TB & remained locked up for the most of the year. How do I remember the year? 'cos 1984 was the year that milk quotas were based on & we were trying to build up as much quota as possible , We were convinced that we bought in an infected animal eventhough all stock we bought were 60 day TB & 30 D Blood tested.

The DVO denied that disease was bought in eventhough some showed lesions in the PM .

They walked the farm to inspect our boundary fences & spotted the badger sets.

They blamed the badger & asked permission to set snares, even though the side of the farm that has the sets was grazed by store cattle (that didn't react) and sheep.

I consulted a person who have done much research in scotland & after a very long discussion, & outlining the situation ,on his advise we refused to allow the dept. to cull the badgers

any how we restocked (luckily we were milk recording & drew maximun compensation) however we finished up with a much smaller milk quota than we planned for, but we built it up over the years.

I am not denying that badgers have TB, but I am sure that they are not responsible for infecting the number of bovine that they are blamed for.

For years there have been questions asked about accuracy of the skin test for intermediate TB .

Almost 25 years later we are still dairying, we still have our cows , we still have our badgers, eventhough we never see them .. a sign of a healthy badger

snowman707

reilig wrote: »

As I said, my view is narrow because I am a farmer. An environmentalist may have a different view to me. And I respect that, but i am entitled to my own too.

Thought you had some job with injector pumps or something, if so you are not a farmer in my books . you might be a landowner but not a farmer

reilig

snowman707 wrote: »

Thought you had some job with injector pumps or something, if so you are not a farmer in my books . you might be a landowner but not a farmer

What is your problem???

I have a job and I have a farm. 60% of Farmers in the country also farm part-time. Are you saying that means that we are not farmers??

I'm as much a farmer as you or anyone else who was born and reared on a farm. I've done my ag college, got my green cert, I own my own land, i have my herdnumber and I keep cattle and sheep. Just because I had to do an apprenticeship afterwards to supplement my income doesn't mean that I'm not a farmer.

Do you just need to mouth off at everything????

MDFM

snowman707 wrote: »

Thought you had some job with injector pumps or something, if so you are not a farmer in my books . you might be a landowner but not a farmer

I would have thought that having a herd number, keeping and managing livestock and grassland management would be enough to qualify him as a farmer??? If not, then I'm in the same boat.
What is a farmer then??

whitser

snowman707 wrote: »

Thought you had some job with injector pumps or something, if so you are not a farmer in my books . you might be a landowner but not a farmer

i'd say there's a very large % of farmers that have other jobs or trades.

snowman707

reilig wrote: »

What is your problem???

I

Do you just need to mouth off at everything????

No at everything but when I see some 1 advising to illegially gas widlife I give as good as i get


living and working close to nature 7 days a week for almost 40 years I have learned to live & let live.

I have seen farms locked up with tb & adjoining farm stayed free, yet badgers roamed freely from 1 farm to the next.

Nature will always try to correct itself even after the worst disaster, my view is leave it very well alone or give a little help as we are now doing we are creating a wildlife habitaf under 1 of the options in REPS4

Sorry if I offended you, widelife presevation is important to me & every time i cut down a tree i plant another ,at the end of the day it is what you leave behind for the next generation that matters

reilig

snowman707 wrote: »

No at everything but when I see some 1 advising to illegially gas widlife I give as good as i get


living and working close to nature 7 days a week for almost 40 years I have learned to live & let live.

I have seen farms locked up with tb & adjoining farm stayed free, yet badgers roamed freely from 1 farm to the next.

Nature will always try to correct itself even after the worst disaster, my view is leave it very well alone or give a little help as we are now doing we are creating a wildlife habitaf under 1 of the options in REPS4

Sorry if I offended you, widelife presevation is important to me & every time i cut down a tree i plant another ,at the end of the day it is what you leave behind for the next generation that matters

I didn't meant to offend you either, and I can see where you're coming from on the wildlife preservation. But I have seen the other side of it. In the mid 1990's, there was a tb epidemic around us. I saw in one townland where 8 farms tested positive for tb - 4 of these lost their whole herd. Every other surrounding farmer had a ban put on selling cattle because the outbreak was so bad. Hundreds of cattle had to be blood tb tested. We lost 90 ewes after a blood test showed that about 20 of them had tb.

Farm Relief services were brought in to catch sample badgers for testing and every single badger that they caught had tb (even badgers that were no more than 6 months tested positive). Badgers died in feedlots, haysheds, barns. Farmers had to do something. Culling was the only option.

You are a farmer. If your half your Dairy Herd went down with tb and the Department of Ag caught some of the badgers on your farm and they all tested positive for tb, how would you feel about badgers then? If you were even 50% sure that the badgers were the cause of the tb, would you still be in favour of protecting their sets on your land, or would you do what you had to do to try to cull these badgers and protect the rest of the dairy herd (which you have openly spoke about on here as taking several years to build up) from contracting the disease.

This is a choice that many farmers are forced to make. Farmers aren't hunters. They don't go around killing badgers for sport. They do it only out of necessity to protect their herds.

What would your solution be if you were faced with the above scenario??????

You talk about staying close to nature, but if you yourself caught tb, which has often happened to farmers working closely with infected animals, how would you feel then? Just look at it one step up the food chain.

Cattle and sheep are slaughtered when diagnosed with tb because if they weren't slaughtered, they would infect other animals, including cats and dogs and the tb would eventually be passed on to humans. Is this not what happened in the 1940s and 1950s when there was a tb epidemic among people in Ireland??

You know that even if a cow shows a sign of being a reactor, the vet will fail them on the tb test. Often when they go to the slaughter house, they are not infected at all. This is precaution to ensure that the tb doesn't spread to humans.

If we go 1 step down the food chain and we cull badgers to ensure that our domestic animals like cows, sheep, pigs, dogs and cats do not contract tb, aren't we effectively trying to cut off the tb closer to the root and effectively killing less wildlife / animals???

I don't know if what I said makes sense, it could be pure bullsh1t, but it makes sense to me.

Debate my views, not me!

luckat

A quick question, for information: is it possible to vaccinate badgers against TB?

(And cattle?)

whitser

vacine for badgers is possible but administering it is next to impossible as far as i know. one of the wardens can explain why.

seandugg

I know a great vaccine, Smoke them out of their sets and give them the back of a shovel

reilig

luckat wrote: »

A quick question, for information: is it possible to vaccinate badgers against TB?

(And cattle?)

Its not possible to vaccinate Cattle, sheep, pigs, dogs, cats or other domesticated animals against tb. As fo vaccinating badgers, there may be a vaccine available, but it would be impossible to administer.

rosiec

luckat wrote: »

A quick question, for information: is it possible to vaccinate badgers against TB?

(And cattle?)

yep, it is possible to vaccinate badgers. They've developed a vaccine based on the bcg vaccine that you give kids. At the moment there is research going on to see if badgers will eat special vaccine laden bait and so far the results are really good. As far as i know the dept will be starting field trails next year around the country. If it proves successful them they'll start reducing the numbers of badgers they cull and vaccinate on a huge scale.

joseph brand

As fo vaccinating badgers, there may be a vaccine available, but it would be impossible to administer.

Could you not just call the badger out of its set, clutching some grass which they love. Then 'WHAMM', needle of vaccine to the jugular!!!

Now I'm no farmer, but it seems easy enough.

reilig

rosiec wrote: »

yep, it is possible to vaccinate badgers. They've developed a vaccine based on the bcg vaccine that you give kids. At the moment there is research going on to see if badgers will eat special vaccine laden bait and so far the results are really good. As far as i know the dept will be starting field trails next year around the country. If it proves successful them they'll start reducing the numbers of badgers they cull and vaccinate on a huge scale.

Please read thic quote from a UK Farming Newspaper called Farmers weekly

"Bovine TB vaccination will not be effective in badgers for next 12 years says BCVA
11/07/2008 14:00:00
FWi

A bovine TB vaccination will not be effective in badgers until at least 2020, the former president of the British Cattle Veterinary Association has warned.

While a badger vaccine is expected to be developed by 2014, it would take more than five years before any effects would be seen, BCVA's Andy Biggs said.


Badgers infected with TB prior to vaccination will still be able to transmit the disease to cattle. So until 2020 it is unlikely we will see any positive effects from controlling the disease with a vaccine," he said.

DEFRA secretary Hilary Benn announced on Monday (7 July) he would make £20m available to develop a TB vaccine over the next three years.

This was in addition to the £18m which has already been invested over the last decade.

While Mr Benn admitted it would be "some time" before an oral vaccine for badgers or a cattle vaccine became available, he said the investment would speed up the development.

Junior DEFRA minister Jeff Rooker said the earliest projected date for widespread use of a cattle vaccine was 2015, while an oral badger vaccine would be available by 2014.

An injectable badger vaccine would be ready for use by 2010, but cost and the practicalities of administering it meant it was not expected to be widely used, he added.

Even when a vaccine was developed, EU law would need to be changed to allow the vaccination of cattle against TB. It is likely to be 2025 before the Vaccine reaches the shores of Ireland as laws would need to be changed in line with any new EU law.

We also wonder who is going to pay for and administer these vaccines, in particular that for badgers."

by Caroline Stocks


Only 17 more years to wait ......... won't be long now!!!!!!

luckat

Presumably if the vaccines prove effective, it will really be the second generation of badgers that are affected.

One study here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18468490

and another (a .doc) can be found by searching for "The Badger vaccine research project – results to date".

A quote from this second one, by UCD and the Central Veterinary Research Laboratory in Kildare:

"The studies have established that BCG induces a protective response, limits the distribution and severity of tuberculosis in experimentally challenged badgers.

"A field trial is to be undertaken, designed to test if BCG is protective in wild badgers under conditions of natural transmission and to estimate vaccine efficacy. The design of the vaccine field trial will be described.

"The field trial and related studies will be used to develop strategies and policies for using vaccination in the national TB programme."

luckat

By the way, anyone know why the Farming and Forestry forum is in Soc rather than Biz? Is farming not a business any more?

rosiec

reilig wrote: »

Please read thic quote from a UK Farming Newspaper called Farmers weekly

"Bovine TB vaccination will not be effective in badgers for next 12 years says BCVA
11/07/2008 14:00:00
FWi

A bovine TB vaccination will not be effective in badgers until at least 2020, the former president of the British Cattle Veterinary Association has warned.

While a badger vaccine is expected to be developed by 2014, it would take more than five years before any effects would be seen, BCVA's Andy Biggs said.


Badgers infected with TB prior to vaccination will still be able to transmit the disease to cattle. So until 2020 it is unlikely we will see any positive effects from controlling the disease with a vaccine," he said.

DEFRA secretary Hilary Benn announced on Monday (7 July) he would make £20m available to develop a TB vaccine over the next three years.

This was in addition to the £18m which has already been invested over the last decade.

While Mr Benn admitted it would be "some time" before an oral vaccine for badgers or a cattle vaccine became available, he said the investment would speed up the development.

Junior DEFRA minister Jeff Rooker said the earliest projected date for widespread use of a cattle vaccine was 2015, while an oral badger vaccine would be available by 2014.

An injectable badger vaccine would be ready for use by 2010, but cost and the practicalities of administering it meant it was not expected to be widely used, he added.

Even when a vaccine was developed, EU law would need to be changed to allow the vaccination of cattle against TB. It is likely to be 2025 before the Vaccine reaches the shores of Ireland as laws would need to be changed in line with any new EU law.

We also wonder who is going to pay for and administer these vaccines, in particular that for badgers."

by Caroline Stocks


Only 17 more years to wait ......... won't be long now!!!!!!

Incase you didnt notice that is in the UK, DEFRA is completely ignorant as to what happens over here. They trap different, they have different policies, irish badgers behave differently to those in the UK. You cant base irish policies on what you read in english papers. Irelands vaccine is totally different to what they're doing in the uk. Bait trials have started here. They wouldnt be doing that if they didnt have something to continue with. It'd be totally irrelevant to do bait trails now and not have a vaccine for 17 years.

eveie

badgers as already stated spread tb
we have been farming for a long time and never once went down with tb that was until we started to notice the growing population of badgers on our land.
i think if there causing a problem to your live stock they should be culled. or if you want you could borrow my springer who has a nack for killing them

oflynno

interesting "debate"

i am a farm manager

my understanding of the badger is this

the badger is a highly territorial animal which will fight off any other badgers from outside its own territory to the death

where this comes into play with TB is as follows
if you go down with TB,the badgers are tested,if positive in badgers,they are snared and removed
if you don't go down with TB and you remove badgers you think are infected,you leave the territory wide open for other badgers outside your area to roam in freely and set up home in the old,MAYBE bringing the TB with them


there has been cases where natural boundaries of these territories have been disturbed or broken due to land reclamation to a certain extent but more recently pipelines crossing large tracts of land.the badgers are disturbed and move through this area unknowingly moving TB with them

i have worked in north cork,east cork,waterford,tipperary and kerry and the same goes for each area

if you have badgers on your land and no TB,leave them alone,they are doing a good job of keeping TB out

i do,however think that the department of agriculture and the veterinary department should have a hotline or service so when a badger is seen dead on the road,they should be picked up,tested for TB and documented so that further investigations should be done on the badger population in the area to prevent the spread of TB.

robp

oflynno wrote: »

interesting "debate"

i am a farm manager

my understanding of the badger is this

the badger is a highly territorial animal which will fight off any other badgers from outside its own territory to the death

where this comes into play with TB is as follows
if you go down with TB,the badgers are tested,if positive in badgers,they are snared and removed
if you don't go down with TB and you remove badgers you think are infected,you leave the territory wide open for other badgers outside your area to roam in freely and set up home in the old,MAYBE bringing the TB with them


there has been cases where natural boundaries of these territories have been disturbed or broken due to land reclamation to a certain extent but more recently pipelines crossing large tracts of land.the badgers are disturbed and move through this area unknowingly moving TB with them

i have worked in north cork,east cork,waterford,tipperary and kerry and the same goes for each area

if you have badgers on your land and no TB,leave them alone,they are doing a good job of keeping TB out

i do,however think that the department of agriculture and the veterinary department should have a hotline or service so when a badger is seen dead on the road,they should be picked up,tested for TB and documented so that further investigations should be done on the badger population in the area to prevent the spread of TB.

Your completly right. Some badger setts have beeen noted to keep the same family of animals for 100 years or so. They certainly don't travel the country in the back of lorries like cattle do.

In the longterm a vaccine would be a far more permant solution the culling. Culling can only reduce not elimnate the incidence of TB.
I guess till a decent vaccine is ready carefully planned culling is most likely the only option in problem areas.

snowman707

reilig wrote: »

Please read thic quote from a UK Farming Newspaper called Farmers weekly

"Bovine TB vaccination will not be effective in badgers for next 12 years says BCVA
11/07/2008 14:00:00
FWi

A bovine TB vaccination will not be effective in badgers until at least 2020, the former president of the British Cattle Veterinary Association has warned.

While a badger vaccine is expected to be developed by 2014, it would take more than five years before any effects would be seen, BCVA's Andy Biggs said.


Badgers infected with TB prior to vaccination will still be able to transmit the disease to cattle. So until 2020 it is unlikely we will see any positive effects from controlling the disease with a vaccine," he said.

DEFRA secretary Hilary Benn announced on Monday (7 July) he would make £20m available to develop a TB vaccine over the next three years.

This was in addition to the £18m which has already been invested over the last decade.

While Mr Benn admitted it would be "some time" before an oral vaccine for badgers or a cattle vaccine became available, he said the investment would speed up the development.

Junior DEFRA minister Jeff Rooker said the earliest projected date for widespread use of a cattle vaccine was 2015, while an oral badger vaccine would be available by 2014.

An injectable badger vaccine would be ready for use by 2010, but cost and the practicalities of administering it meant it was not expected to be widely used, he added.

Even when a vaccine was developed, EU law would need to be changed to allow the vaccination of cattle against TB. It is likely to be 2025 before the Vaccine reaches the shores of Ireland as laws would need to be changed in line with any new EU law.

We also wonder who is going to pay for and administer these vaccines, in particular that for badgers."

by Caroline Stocks


Only 17 more years to wait ......... won't be long now!!!!!!

would be more in their line to control bluetongue , foot & mouth, & every other disease that they cover up over there

reilig

snowman707 wrote: »

would be more in their line to control bluetongue , foot & mouth, & every other disease that they cover up over there

That really isn't the point that anyone is trying to make here. TB wipes out far more herds than blue tongue, foot and mouth and any other disease combined. Therefore it is of upmost importance that they try to control it on a permanent basis and deal with other diseases as they come and go.