Segregation of Immigrant Classes

djpbarry

Breezer wrote: »

There's enough to make my mother's professional life fairly difficult at the moment. Admittedly that's at 3rd level.

Not sure what you mean?


Decent comment on the subject in today's Times:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0822/1219331408154.html

InFront

Breezer wrote: »

That's all well and good, but unless it is enforced there are those who will not learn it.

Do you really think there are fix, six, nine and ten year old kids... who come here and won't learn English? Kids pick up languages like they pick up dog crap - with a disconcerting ease.

Breezer wrote: »

but if you're living here long term you should be able to speak either English or Irish.

I'm pretty sure Urdu is more widely spoken as a day to day language here than Irish to be honest... certainly the pan-Slav languages are!
Anyway of course people who live here ought to be able to speak English. I know a lot of people who have moved here from Asia from the last 25 years right down to last month, and I don't know any who can't speak any English.

Of course for any kid to engage in the educational system in this country, to not speak the language is a handicap. Can that even be realistically contradicted?
I agree with a policy of giving kids with bad English a crash course in the language. Whether they originate from Ireland or elsewhere is hardly relevant. It should perhaps also help kids who suffer from dyslexia, perhaps, since resources appear to be so tight at that level in the system.

But perhaps it would be more expedient to offer this crash course outside of class-time and not when these kids ought to be studying maths or some other academic activity, so that they will not get left behind.

I certainly don't agree with a policy f 9am-3pm segregation... are there any schools in the country who can still afford to be so generous with their space?!

Breezer

djpbarry wrote: »

Not sure what you mean?

An anecdote from personal experience to demonstrate that this is indeed a problem. My mother, as a college lecturer, has trouble teaching business to foreign students who can barely speak English. I qualified this statement by highlighting that I was referring to 3rd level, whereas this policy is aimed at secondary school students.

Decent comment on the subject in today's Times:

A very good comment. I agree with pretty much all of it. I already said that 'segregation' was a poor choice of words. Hopefully, for once, we can get over it and discuss the real issue. I won't hold my breath though.

InFront wrote:

Do you really think there are fix, six, nine and ten year old kids... who come here and won't learn English? Kids pick up languages like they pick up dog crap - with a disconcerting ease.

The policy refers to secondary school students. There are those who come here who are more interested in making more money than they can at home by working minimum wage jobs than they are in fulfilling their full potential as members of Irish society. Yes, I know we need people to work these jobs, but there isn't much point in the same people being in the school system and getting lost in it: they're not doing themselves or their classmates any favours.

InFront wrote:

I'm pretty sure Urdu is more widely spoken as a day to day language here than Irish to be honest... certainly the pan-Slav languages are!

I've already addressed that point. We're not debating the merits of the Irish language here.

I know a lot of people who have moved here from Asia from the last 25 years right down to last month, and I don't know any who can't speak any English.

I can testify that such people exist. There are certainly those who cannot speak the language to the level required by our education system.

I agree with a policy of giving kids with bad English a crash course in the language. Whether they originate from Ireland or elsewhere is hardly relevant. It should perhaps also help kids who suffer from dyslexia, perhaps, since resources appear to be so tight at that level in the system.

But perhaps it would be more expedient to offer this crash course outside of class-time and not when these kids ought to be studying maths or some other academic activity, so that they will not get left behind.

Dyslexia is a separate issue altogether. People with dyslexia have no problem with spoken language. As regards written language, different techniques are required to help those affected by the condition than are required to simply teach English to a non-native speaker. Though I certainly agree that Ireland's high illiteracy levels are a disgrace.

Holding the course outside of class time would certainly be a possibility, and something which should be examined. If we were to have a proper debate on the issue, the pros and cons of a number of possible strategies could be weighed up against each other. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to happen, given both the state the Government has the economy in and also people's tendency to nit pick over a poor choice of words rather than look at the real issue.

meathstevie

Breezer wrote: »

...I know that Belgium has international schools where students are taught in their native languages. However, the situation is somewhat different there as there are large numbers of children of EU officials living there for short periods of time. The idea is to keep up their education as before, rather than integrate them into Belgian society.

Correct, but you have to add in that as a rule under the Belgian constitution education has to be in the official regional language with the second national language as obligational subject from 5th year in primary.

The practice looks as follows : in Flanders : Dutch+obligational French, in Wallonia : French+obligational Dutch and in the German speaking region German+French. Brussels is the odd one out, the language you go to school in depends on what school you select. Recently there has been a trend for people who don't have Dutch as a first language to select Flemish schools.

I remember going through primary and whenever kids from non-Dutch speaking backgrounds came to the school as new arrivals they were often segregated for one or two days a week over the duration of a couple of months and given intensive language courses.

I can't see nothing wrong with this practice, on the contrary it improves their chances of completing primary and secondary school with a fair chance of success while it prevents a whole class from getting slowed down because of the difficulties of one or two pupils. In a way you should look upon this as special needs teaching with the needs not defined by medical issues but by social issues. It's not racist, on the contrary, it's an extra facility provided for non-national kids in order to improve their ability of coping with the Irish education system.

InFront

Breezer wrote: »

There are those who come here who are more interested in making more money than they can at home by working minimum wage jobs than they are in fulfilling their full potential as members of Irish society.

In fairness, that would be just about everybody. People generally don't come to Ireland to fulfill some potential as a member of Irish society, naturally they're more interested in employment, quality of life, etc. That's the nature of economic migration.
I don't speak any Chinese language, but if in the morning Ireland were a third world country, and I had kids I wanted to have a successful future, then I'd have no qualms about moving there. Once there, then the language would start to become an issue, but not a huge one, we'd get by. That's pretty much what happens in ireland.

there isn't much point in the same people being in the school system and getting lost in it: they're not doing themselves or their classmates any favours.

That's obvious. Nobody's debating the issue that language support services need to be improved as far as I can see. I think the issue is how it's approached - ie that it should happen outside school hours, and of course include all children with language issues, even Irish kids.

I've already addressed that point. We're not debating the merits of the Irish language here.

I think you suggested that immigrants should learn to speak Irish OR English. M point is simply that most Irish people tend not to be fluent in Irish, and since the whole point of a common language is to maximise the number of residents with whom one can converse with maximum fluency, they'd be better off with Polish or Urdu than Irish.

I can testify that such people exist. There are certainly those who cannot speak the language to the level required by our education system.

Totally different issues. There's being able to communicate and get by in English and then there's being able to study poetry, chemistry or European history through English. You're talking about completely different levels and I would say that for any immigrant who has been here three months or more, the former is very very rare.

Dyslexia is a separate issue altogether. People with dyslexia have no problem with spoken language. As regards written language, different techniques are required to help those affected by the condition than are required to simply teach English to a non-native speaker.
It's not all about spoken language, these students need correct grammar and spelling as well. I can't see why dyslexic students should be excluded - they get very little as things stand, and since your main concern on this topic is progress for everybody and nobody getting held back, I'm surprised that you don't agree.
Hardly any point in dealing with one group of students with a potential language difficulty while excluding others, if teachers just end up focusing their attention on a newer group of students with special requirements.

Breezer

InFront wrote: »

In fairness, that would be just about everybody. People generally don't come to Ireland to fulfill some potential as a member of Irish society, naturally they're more interested in employment, quality of life, etc. That's the nature of economic migration.

Of course they are, I wasn't suggesting otherwise. My point is that sacrificing short term monetary gain, overcoming the language barrier and going through our education system will enable these people to go on, get a college degree and a decent job, thereby contributing more fully to Irish society and also benefiting themselves in the long term. Immigrants should be facilitated in this regard.

I think you suggested that immigrants should learn to speak Irish OR English. M point is simply that most Irish people tend not to be fluent in Irish, and since the whole point of a common language is to maximise the number of residents with whom one can converse with maximum fluency, they'd be better off with Polish or Urdu than Irish.

I did, and I stand by that. Irish is the first language of this country and if anyone living in this country, Irish or otherwise, wishes to go about their business in Irish then they are perfectly entitled to do so. I also suggested that this scenario is almost certainly confined solely to the realm of theory and while I fully support the right of people to do this, it would not be particularly practical.

Totally different issues. There's being able to communicate and get by in English and then there's being able to study poetry, chemistry or European history through English. You're talking about completely different levels and I would say that for any immigrant who has been here three months or more, the former is very very rare.

We're discussing enabling secondary school students with poor English skills to get through an intensely exam-focused system. Therefore, the latter would be the important skill.

It's not all about spoken language, these students need correct grammar and spelling as well. I can't see why dyslexic students should be excluded - they get very little as things stand, and since your main concern on this topic is progress for everybody and nobody getting held back, I'm surprised that you don't agree.
Hardly any point in dealing with one group of students with a potential language difficulty while excluding others, if teachers just end up focusing their attention on a newer group of students with special requirements.

I agree, of course grammar and spelling are important, but the methods of teaching a foreign language to a non-native speaker are completely different to the methods employed to give special tuition to students with dyslexia. Both are required, but the issues should not be confused.