The Dole

gcgirl

snob! Live in the real world and see whats it's like !

Thomas_S_Hunterson

gcgirl wrote: »

snob! Live in the real world and see whats it's like !

lol:pac:

From your posts, you come across as a bit of an idealist, so you could perhaps apply your own advice to yourself.

pau8lieskins

I've been on the Dole for the past 5 years with occasional jobs ranging from 2 weeks to 2 months I don't like it but its the best option I have as every job I've went for doesn't offer me a good enough deal to actually work either amount of hours or wage rate it always ends up less than the Dole

The last job i had was in Dunnes which i left after 2 months due to getting less money from them as i said to the manager when i was leaving "The social welfare is offering me more money"

I find that nowadays full time job is a rarity and you really need 2/3 part time jobs to get a decent weekly wage and finding one job is hard finding 2 even harder

ssmith6287

Erm im 21, work in an office on €300 a week, and have to do barwork aswell.. I am in the real world, just I appreciate money and how hard it is to make. how many people do 60 hours for €500, cnt imagine too many. When I was in college there were people who could collect a grant and dole at the same time, I couldn get either because my folks both work. Ive never asked them for money since i got my 1st job, I paid my way since i was 16 despite my mam not accepting money from me, its in an account for them for iff they need it. So dont get onto me about real world, im well aware

gcgirl

you know most of my friends and myself have worked through college some are teachers some are nurses and the odd few social workers we come from working class back grounds and have a fair idea of what problems people on lower incomes and how they suffer and i'm deffo not going to reduce what they struggle to live on !

ssmith6287

iff they werent so snobbish theres plenty of jobs. Fair enough people whov worked in factories for 40 years etc, theyve never done anything else. Iff these builders cared so much theyd go to college or further education, the grant is as much as the dole but at least theyre doing something. Beggars cant be choosers, If you can get a job, take it.

DubArk

pau8lieskins wrote: »

I've been on the Dole for the past 5 years with occasional jobs ranging from 2 weeks to 2 months I don't like it but its the best option I have as every job I've went for doesn't offer me a good enough deal to actually work either amount of hours or wage rate it always ends up less than the Dole

The last job i had was in Dunnes which i left after 2 months due to getting less money from them as i said to the manager when i was leaving "The social welfare is offering me more money"

I find that nowadays full time job is a rarity and you really need 2/3 part time jobs to get a decent weekly wage and finding one job is hard finding 2 even harder

Did you ever think if you had stayed with just one of the jobs and knuckled down for a while you might just of moved up the ladder and then earned more money like the rest of us? :rolleyes:

I didn't just walk into the job i have today, i worked bloody hard for it!
Im sure your manager must of been wonded be your witty remark!!

ssmith6287

Dunnes, Aldi, SuperValu etc have some of the best management courses going. Youd be crazy to leave a job to go on the dole

mickos

pau8lieskins wrote: »

The last job i had was in Dunnes which i left after 2 months due to getting less money from them as i said to the manager when i was leaving "The social welfare is offering me more money"

I taught if you quit a job you were not entitled to claim unemployment assistance. is this no longer the case?

Économiste Monétaire

mickos wrote: »

I taught if you quit a job you were not entitled to claim unemployment assistance. is this no longer the case?

Correct, voluntarily leaving means no dole.

gcgirl

looking at my local paper here is pretty depressing esp if your looking for work ! Dunnes pulling out of newtown store weeks before it opens ! The marlton quarter not getting the go ahead plus a few other things not getting goahead ! The jobs are very few indeed ! I wonder in wicklow county council are going to do any about proper drainage in towns affected by floods thats bound to creat a few jobs !

ssmith6287

are you for real, In wicklow complaining about no jobs, Ive heard it all now. Go to jobs.ie and look at the amount of jobs in dublin. Dont say wicklow is far from dublin!!! Not you personally, U said yer a teacher, but this is the attitude that wrecks my head. Awh theres no job on my doorstep, it might take a bit of effort, I wont bother :mad::mad:

Bally8

I work for an organisation that pays early school leavers a training allowance ranging from €80 per week for 15year olds to over €200 for 18 year olds while they complete the Leaving Cert Applied. Time and time again we lose them once they turn 18. As many of them have said 'Why would I keep coming in here everyday when I can get paid to stay at home?'.

It drives me sooo mad:mad:. All they need to do is go to 3 employers and ask for work (which they have no hope of getting). When the employer says no, they ask for a letter and then they can get jobseekers allowance, rent allowance etc even if they voluntarily left work/education.

gcgirl

sorry i don't need a job already have a full time job which is 24/7 ! i'm saying that it's really hit hard here and listening to the radio the amount of people getting the dole has risen plus the whole dublin thing is not going to work for some people leaving your house at half 6 or 7 then not getting back til roughly same time in the evening i know loads who do it and they hate it ! Esp those who have kids

ssmith6287

Thats what Ive to do. into work for 8, have o get the 7.20 bus, leave my house at 6.30. Finish at 5, home in house for 6. into work in the pub at 8 till closing time. I could get by on my full time job but being honest ive gotten into a routine. But I can understand someone maybe from cavan, leitrim etc having to go to dublin for work complaining but not someone from wicklow, kildare, Louth, Meath

seahorse

drunkmonkey wrote: »

the minimum wage is to high and needs to be dropped or some kind of attempt has to be made by the goverment to get perfectly healthy people back off the couch and back into employment...

I think (and hope) you must have meant 'the minimum wage is too low and needs to be raised'. Your comment makes no sense at all otherwise; but if that wasn’t a typo, could you please explain how on earth you expect lowering the already disgracefully meagre minimum wage might encourage people to work minimum wage jobs???

seahorse

seahorse wrote: »

I think (and hope) you must have meant 'the minimum wage is too low and needs to be raised'. Your comment makes no sense at all otherwise; but if that wasn’t a typo, could you please explain how on earth you expect lowering the already disgracefully meagre minimum wage might encourage people to work minimum wage jobs???

Lowering the min wage makes it cheaper for employers to hire workers and therefore will increase jobs.

Time Magazine

UCD_Econ wrote: »

Ehh Mod - now that's abusive :rolleyes:

gcgirl infracted.

gcgirl wrote: »

looking at my local paper here is pretty depressing esp if your looking for work ! Dunnes pulling out of newtown store weeks before it opens ! The marlton quarter not getting the go ahead plus a few other things not getting goahead !

Keep this about economics and not a localised discussion of employment prospects.

The jobs are very few indeed ! I wonder in wicklow county council are going to do any about proper drainage in towns affected by floods thats bound to creat a few jobs !

It would create jobs but would have to be paid for from the Exchequer, which isn't exactly bursting at the moment.

Let's keep this on topic and civil.

And please stop using so many exclamation marks

gcgirl

your 21 no kids and you can work all the hours you want ! Most of my age group are married with 2.5 kids ! There are a good few staying at home to look after the kids because the child care or lack of affordable child care is a factor !

seahorse

Deleted User wrote: »

Lowering the min wage makes it cheaper for employers to hire workers and therefore will increase jobs.

It's far more likely to increase the proportion of foreigners in pittance-paid jobs and Irish on the dole queues, along with increasing business peoples bank balances; but then that'll suit them just fine, wont it?

suckslikeafox

The naivety of some people is incredible, do you actually expect employers to pay more wages than they have to or to employ staff when it is not profitable to do so?

Employers look after their own best interests, just as employees do, and this is good for the economy as a whole. Not good for people who get laid off, etc but good as a whole.

Économiste Monétaire

seahorse wrote: »

It's far more likely to increase the proportion of foreigners in pittance-paid jobs and Irish on the dole queues

Source? Do you think Irish people are turned away from jobs at this rate or simply avoid them?

Kinetic^

I'd like to see a system in place whereby if you're on it 6 months your payment is reduced by half. After another 6 months, you get nothing. Those periods of 6 months should cover a period of 5 years. So 6 months on full dole in any 5 year period and the same for half cover. It would soon get people off their lazy hole.

delop

Some very hard hearted posters here, makes me very sad to hear, I feel that I live in a country where the state does its best to help the less fortunate , and this is only affected by budget concerns and politician's inability or ability to make suitable decisions....

I understand how now and again ppl are typecast, i.e. as other posters suggested, that ppl on the dole are 'lazy'

I spent a time on the dole, and my feeling on it is that ppl on the dole live in a different country to workers, I did not enjoy 'sitting on my arse'
I felt I was quite educated and should have no problem getting a job, but its not always that easy... I could only apply for roles in field X of software Engineering, I used my time 'sitting on my arse' to re-train when I tried to apply for anything else Agencies wouldnt even talk to me, unless I wanted the job X which wasnt to be had, and companies said I had no experence...

I even offered to work for free for 6 months, but still job....

So as far as Im concerned, I give ppl on the dole the benefit of the doubt, because life aint ever black and white....

there is my 2 cents ( as this is economic form ) :-)

Flamed Diving

Dudes, where is the economics? In fact, as an economist, I think the OP's friends were right to laugh at him if he earns a wage that is close to UA. If the dole pays e200 and you get paid e350, that means you are working for e150 extra per week. Which means you get paid 3.75 p/h more for your troubles than you would have gotten for sitting on your arse doing nothing.

In addition, if you take away fifty euro a week for lunch and transport and you are left with e100. Thats e20 per day for getting up at an ungodly hour to be in the office for a 9-5 only to arrive home at 6pm? So you can understand why your friends may laugh up their cuff.

Just a thought, from an economic perspective.

suckslikeafox

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Dudes, where is the economics? In fact, as an economist, I think the OP's friends were right to laugh at him if he earns a wage that is close to UA. If the dole pays e200 and you get paid e350, that means you are working for e150 extra per week. Which means you get paid 3.75 p/h more for your troubles.

Just a thought, from an economic perspective.

And dont forget the opportunity cost of the 40 hours that you spend working, compared to the person on the dole who has no time taken up other than the time it takes to pick up the cheque!

Flamed Diving

suckslikeafox wrote: »

And dont forget the opportunity cost of the 40 hours that you spend working, compared to the person on the dole who has no time taken up other than the time it takes to pick up the cheque!

Erm, that was my whole point!

:pac:

suckslikeafox

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Erm, that was my whole point!

:pac:

Oh! Well said then!

Morlar

delop wrote: »

Some very hard hearted posters here, makes me very sad

In my experience people dont have an issue with the dole being used the way it is designed to be used - as a temporary safety net.

Some people see the dole & rent allowance etc as a lifestyle choice and its that ''f*** you I will take everypenny I can while you work long hours to pay for this'' attitude that directly causes resentment

IF the cause was addressed - ie people deliberately staying on the dole rather than working then the resentment would evaporate too.

I would agree that anyone physically capable should be made to work in order to continue to recieve their benefits. Personally I think it should be a requirement after the 2nd week of being on the dole. 8am starts or you dont get paid.

Arguments that this could interfere with them looking for work dont stand up to much scrutiny. They could have days off each week so long as they can prove that they have made applications for jobs and provided that they attend the interviews in good faith.

Économiste Monétaire

Dudes, where is the economics? In fact, as an economist, I think the OP's friends were right to laugh at him if he earns a wage that is close to UA. If the dole pays e200 and you get paid e350, that means you are working for e150 extra per week. Which means you get paid 3.75 p/h more for your troubles than you would have gotten for sitting on your arse doing nothing.

In addition, if you take away fifty euro a week for lunch and transport and you are left with e100. Thats e20 per day for getting up at an ungodly hour to be in the office for a 9-5 only to arrive home at 6pm? So you can understand why your friends may laugh up their cuff.

Just a thought, from an economic perspective.

Aye, good point. You could also add the other benefits of being on Job seeker's allowance:

Fuel Allowance: ? (maybe 60 euro a week)
Rent allowance: 600 euro maximum; no children.
Medical Card: Trying to quantify how much this is worth is difficult, depends on the person. Let’s give it an arbitrary 50 euro a month.

So 800 euro maximum dole payments with 890 in benefits comes to a ballpark figure of 1690 a month. So, by my back-of-the-envelope calculations, it isn’t really worth your time to work, ssmith6287 :rolleyes:. Those are maximum figures of course. Also, it’s hard to quantify pride in working.

Flamed Diving

UCD_Econ wrote: »

Aye, good point. You could also add the other benefits of being on Job seeker's allowance:

Fuel Allowance: ? (maybe 60 euro a week)
Rent allowance: 600 euro maximum; no children.
Medical Card: Trying to quantify how much this is worth is difficult, depends on the person. Let’s give it an arbitrary 50 euro a month.

So 800 euro maximum dole payments with 890 in benefits comes to a ballpark figure of 1690 a month. So, by my back-of-the-envelope calculations, it isn’t really worth your time to work, ssmith6287 :rolleyes:. Those are maximum figures of course. Also, it’s hard to quantify pride in working.

Utils! What about the utils!?!

:pac:

Économiste Monétaire

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Utils! What about the utils!?!

:pac:

Do they get money to pay for gas, T.V., etc? I though it was just "smokeless fuel allowance". Oh and I forgot school books & uniforms, they get money for that too.

Flamed Diving

UCD_Econ wrote: »

Do they get money to pay for gas, T.V., etc? I though it was just "smokeless fuel allowance". Oh and I forgot school books & uniforms, they get money for that too.

Lol, no I meant 'utility' as a measure of enjoyment or fulfillment one would receive by going to work and have a purpose in life. This would need to be added to my accounting above.

Économiste Monétaire

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Lol, no I meant 'utility' as a measure of enjoyment or fulfillment one would receive by going to work and have a purpose in life. This would need to be added to my accounting above.

Aye, I was trying to include that as part of the 'pride in working' bit

I thought you meant utilities.

drunkmonkey

Deleted User wrote: »

Lowering the min wage makes it cheaper for employers to hire workers and therefore will increase jobs.

but how do we keep everyone happy...

Suggest any person over 3mts unemployed has to start voluntary work for any employer (no experience required) for the following 3mts (29hrs per week, that gives them 10hrs per week for job hunting) ....any employer has access to your cv while your on the dole, after 10 weeks..

The employer has the gift of free staff for 3mts and the person on the dole has gained some usefull (off career/career) experience and the potential of a full time job...(the employer can pay the employee if they so wish but it's not mandatory)

If the employer wants to keep the person after 3mts they give them an extra €1+ph over the minimum wage as a thank you for working for free(people on the dole will be still getting all there full welfare entitlements over the 3mts, if it dosen't work out after the first 3mts, they go back on the dole and so on and so forth)

This would save a bucket of money and ensure tax payers are getting good value for money out of our public investment, business will boom, employment figures will fall.....everyones a winner:)

Flamed Diving

drunkmonkey wrote: »

but how do we keep everyone happy...

Suggest any person over 3mts unemployed has to start voluntary work for any employer (no experience required) for the following 3mts (29hrs per week, that gives them 10hrs per week for job hunting) ....any employer has access to your cv while your on the dole, after 10 weeks..

The employer has the gift of free staff for 3mts and the person on the dole has gained some usefull (off career/career) experience and the potential of a full time job...(the employer can pay the employee if they so wish but it's not mandatory)

If the employer wants to keep the person after 3mts they give them an extra €1+ph over the minimum wage as a thank you for working for free(people on the dole will be still getting all there full welfare entitlements over the 3mts, if it dosen't work out after the first 3mts, they go back on the dole and so on and so forth)

This would save a bucket of money and ensure tax payers are getting good value for money out of our public investment, business will boom, employment figures will fall.....everyones a winner:)

Ok, but the incentive is for employers to hire a constant cycle of these guys (not keeping them on) thus depressing the amount of available positions in the market (because free labour is better than paying someone), which in turn will increase the amount of 'voluntary' labour in the market. Not only does this fail to solve the problem, it actually makes it worse.

drunkmonkey

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Ok, but the incentive is for employers to hire a constant cycle of these guys (not keeping them on) thus depressing the amount of available positions in the market (because free labour is better than paying someone), which in turn will increase the amount of 'voluntary' labour in the market. Not only does this fail to solve the problem, it actually makes it worse.

An employer can only choose a person once a year and the 3mts trial may not run into december....

How's that?

Oh and start ups can have up to 6mts staff assistance benifit, no maximum on employees.

Économiste Monétaire

drunkmonkey wrote: »

An employer can only choose a person once a year and the 3mts trial may not run into december....

How's that?

Oh and start ups can have up to 6mts staff assistance benifit, no maximum on employees.

You never mentioned the one person a year rule in the post.

Flamed Diving

drunkmonkey wrote: »

An employer can only choose a person once a year and the 3mts trial may not run into december....

How's that?

Oh and start ups can have up to 6mts staff assistance benifit, no maximum on employees.

Ok, thats better. Although I am still worried that through allowing this volunteer to work, you are denying a position for a person who would have been paid. So, once again, it doesnt really solve the problem of reducing unemployment.

drunkmonkey

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Ok, thats better. Although I am still worried that through allowing this volunteer to work, you are denying a position for a person who would have been paid.

you have that emlement but where the plan really shines is that small businesses may be able to expand when otherwise they may have been constrained by cashflow.....the person will create a job for themselves over the 3mts...

Économiste Monétaire

drunkmonkey wrote: »

you have that emlement but where the plan really shines is that small businesses may be able to expand when otherwise they may have been constrained by cashflow.....the person will create a job for themselves over the 3mts...

You assume that the unemployed person will have the skills required to do the job thus enabling the business to expand.

Flamed Diving

drunkmonkey wrote: »

you have that emlement but where the plan really shines is that small businesses may be able to expand when otherwise they may have been constrained by cashflow.....the person will create a job for themselves over the 3mts...

But there is no guarantee that the business will keep that person on. The only real benefit I see is for the business itself, in getting three months free labour. It potentially keeps one extra person on the live register (the person who could have gotten the paid job), which doubles the cost for the exchequer (two instead of one), and keeps unemployment figures artificially inflated. Sorry, I'm just not convinced.

drunkmonkey

UCD_Econ wrote: »

You assume that the unemployed person will have the skills required to do the job thus enabling the business to expand.

No experience required, there are any amount of employers willing to take on someone with no experience especially when they are of little cost....

I think the pros outway the cons....

drunkmonkey

Flamed Diving wrote: »

But there is no guarantee that the business will keep that person on. The only real benefit I see is for the business itself, in getting three months free labour. It potentially keeps one extra person on the live register (the person who could have gotten the paid job), which doubles the cost for the exchequer (two instead of one), and keeps unemployment figures artificially inflated. Sorry, I'm just not convinced.

At the moment business get's no benifit from the dole cue, this way business will benifit and the unemployed will be upskilled.
Maybe only 10% of the peope on the dole will gain employment after 3mts but if we can repeat that figure every 3 mts for the next few years it will be of a real benifit to everyone...

Flamed Diving

drunkmonkey wrote: »

At the moment business get's no benifit from the dole cue, this way business will benifit and the unemployed will be upskilled.
Maybe only 10% of the peope on the dole will gain employment after 3mts but if we can repeat that figure every 3 mts for the next few years it will be of a real benifit to everyone...

You are choosing to ignore the most salient point. Each time a person is hired in this voluntary role, another person will be denied a paid position. This proposal will solve nothing in terms of the dole queue. You are simply pulling one person out of it and replacing them with another. Except that according to the statisticians, both people are unemployed, because both are on the live register, thus increasing the unemployment rate.

drunkmonkey

Flamed Diving wrote: »

You are choosing to ignore the most salient point. Each time a person is hired in this voluntary role, another person will be denied a paid position. This proposal will solve nothing in terms of the dole queue. You are simply pulling one person out of it and replacing them with another. Except that according to the statisticians, both people are unemployed, because both are on the live register, thus increasing the unemployment rate.

A paid person will not be denied a new position, if we make a rule that only buinesses who have not taken on a new position within 6mts are eligable for the benifit....i.e only business with the potential to create new employment can participate....(who otherwise wouldn't)

Économiste Monétaire

So what happens during the three months when they have 'free labour' - People will be denied work because why hire, and pay, someone when you can get it for free? The system doesn't work - and a slightly similar idea is already operating in the work placement scheme in FAS.

Employers would take the labour, paid for by the Social Welfare, and then dump them, why would they pay e1/hr over minimum wage? Hire person on JA - wait 3 months, then hire someone at minimum wage.

seahorse

UCD_Econ wrote: »

Source?

If you seriously need a "source" to confirm that the lowest paid jobs in this land are filled by foreigners I'd suggest you consider using your own eyes; that's the best "source" you're likely to get.

UCD_Econ wrote: »

Do you think Irish people are turned away from jobs at this rate or simply avoid them?

They avoid them, and they avoid them because, unlike economic migrants, Irish people cannot send home two or three euros out of each minimum wage hours work and expect to feed a family on it.

seahorse

suckslikeafox wrote: »

The naivety of some people is incredible, do you actually expect employers to pay more wages than they have to

I am not advocating employers paying more wages than they have to. I am expressing my disgust at their attempts to pay LESS than they currently have to, which is scarcely enough to keep an Irish family off the streets as it is.

Would you like to see your family try to survive on just over 300 euros a week? How do you think you'd get on?

Économiste Monétaire

If you seriously need a "source" to confirm that the lowest paid jobs in this land are filled by foreigners I'd suggest you consider using your own eyes; that's the best "source" you're likely to get.

I asked for a source for the idea that there is a negative correlation between the minimum wage and the unemployment rate (the ‘Irish’ people); it was facetious request because the assumption is comical. As an aside, I find it disturbing that you segregate people in the dole queue by nationality implying some kind of right to a job over others.

My eyes now rank above all forms of hypothesis testing – hehe.

They avoid them, and they avoid them because, unlike economic migrants, Irish people cannot send home two or three euros out of each minimum wage hours work and expect to feed a family on it.

And you’re complaining against the market clearing wage because? Who would you like to see do the work of the migrants? People make choices in life. Working for the minimum wage is one of them – don’t like it? Enter a program of retraining, become a skilled worker. No one is owed a living. Why would someone make a choice to have a ‘family’ (kids, cats, dogs, gold fish, etc) while working on the minimum wage...