Working as a programmer

Schism

I'm in college doing a general enough computer science course and I'm at the stage now where I have to choose what to specialize in as it were.

Software Development is one of those options and I was wondering if anyone in that business could give me some info about what type of work this entails.

So... What's it like to be a software developer?

p.s. I'm not sure if this should be posted here or in work and jobs

Martyr

i'm not a software developer, so maybe its not my right to comment.
not being mean, but you don't seem to be interested in software development anyway, so maybe its not something you should persue.

just sayin because you could end up getting involved in the subject, maybe spending years at it, only to realise its not really want you want to do

Schism

Average Joe wrote: »

i'm not a software developer, so maybe its not my right to comment.
not being mean, but you don't seem to be interested in software development anyway, so maybe its not something you should persue.

just sayin because you could end up getting involved in the subject, maybe spending years at it, only to realise its not really want you want to do

Sound advice and it's taken on board. Still, I'd like to hear from some people in the business.

Ginger

I work as a developer.

You need the following traits, the ability to take a lot of critism at any given time, turning market speak into technical requirements, the ability to extract information from clients to get to what they actually want.

Also you need to able to move with the times and change technologies/languages frequently and also upskill as the market progresses.

It takes a certain mindset to do it. If you dont get a buzz from solving problems which some people may think impossible then maybe software dev is not for you.

NeverSayDie

Some bits and pieces on being a software developer;

Enthusiasm and interest in the field are pretty important. Fairly obvious I guess, but it can be a reasonably demanding job, and if you're not into software development, you'd best avoid it.

One point I'd mention (that's sometimes lost on students) is that programming/coding is only a subset of what a software developer does. Things like software design/engineering, testing, technical documentation, requirements analysis, debugging, release management, technical support, etc are all in there to a greater or lesser extent too.

As Ginger points out, client-facing work also crops up sooner or later (though probably not as much at the junior end, unless you're working for yourself or for a very small company).

Working with and reading other peoples' code. This is something you'll do an awful lot of as a developer, so you better get used to it. Most software companies/depts will already have large codebases, and you'll likely spend a lot of your time working with existing code. Debugging it, fixing it, extending it, replacing it, refactoring it, etc.

Very very important; teamwork, good attitude and the ability to get along with and work closely with other people. Software is built by teams.

Generally, it's a good business to work in - the work's challenging, diverse and rewarding, and there's decent money to be made too.

Beano

if you're thinking of moving into software development you need to start developing your psychic skills now, especially if you end up doing anything that is client facing.

Schism

Thanks for the replies, they help a lot.

I'd also like to ask, would I be wrong in thinking that if I went and got a degree in Software Development this would open up doors for me in other areas of computing? for example Web Design.

Merrion

Software Engineering wouldn't be likely to lead on to web design - the latter is pretty much an arts subject these days. (Indeed most web development tools now split the design from the function)

IRLConor

NeverSayDie wrote: »

One point I'd mention (that's sometimes lost on students) is that programming/coding is only a subset of what a software developer does. Things like software design/engineering, testing, technical documentation, requirements analysis, debugging, release management, technical support, etc are all in there to a greater or lesser extent too.

+1 You'll spend a surprising amount of your day talking to people. A firm grasp of written English is a huge asset too since you'll spend a good amount of your time writing documentation, e-mails and bug reports/responses.

NeverSayDie wrote: »

Working with and reading other peoples' code. This is something you'll do an awful lot of as a developer, so you better get used to it. Most software companies/depts will already have large codebases, and you'll likely spend a lot of your time working with existing code. Debugging it, fixing it, extending it, replacing it, refactoring it, etc.

+1M

You will almost never have a blank page before you. Not just that, but often you'll have the crappiest code in the organisation in front of you. You'll rarely see the better stuff because there's much less motivation to work on it.

Schism wrote: »

I'd also like to ask, would I be wrong in thinking that if I went and got a degree in Software Development this would open up doors for me in other areas of computing? for example Web Design.

"Web design" is an awfully broad field. I've seen artists with only a passing knowledge of computers work at that and conversely I've seen coders with no idea of graphic design work at it. There are some jobs within that field which are better suited to software developers though (anyone ever see an artist try to get their head around some AJAXy Javascript?) so don't rule it out because it doesn't look like a software development job.

The one caveat I'd put in is that (in my experience anyway) the code you'll see in that field is much worse on average. If working on horrible, brain-dead code offends you then be very careful accepting a job in that industry.

Evil Phil

IRLConor wrote: »

The one caveat I'd put in is that (in my experience anyway) the code you'll see in that field is much worse on average. If working on horrible, brain-dead code offends you then be very careful accepting a job in that industry.

+1

This is an unfortunate fact of web development - designery types who are very, very good at their jobs can often be sh*t at writing code. This isn't so bad if they're aware of it and allow the devs to do their jobs. But if the old ego is inflated (They're kind of the rock-stars of the web for non-techs) they can be a nightmare to work with.

I've worked on a really good project that got delayed by months because of one designer who decided he was a coder too. All it takes is one bad apple.

Ginger

It can be a very rewarding job when everything works and all is deployed and you sit back and think I did that...

Some times it can be a nightmare, bad requirements, unbelievable deadlines and incomprehensible code.

It has its ups and downs..

I still like my job, but I am moving out of pure coding within 18 months because I dont think I can move as fast with the changes in languages.

That is one thing you will find is that, a lot of coders will leave coding after about 8 to 10 years because its so difficult to retrain that often, and also the career ladder means that to earn more they need to move into areas such as management or architecture or else be labelled as legacy programmers maintaining systems that will not be rewritten but need to be used

hussey

I work as a J2EE dev for a large bank, there is pressure as if we screw up .. well it's people's money you can imagine what would hit the fan

personally I don't think it is everyone's cup of tea, some people just 'get' it straight away and can see outside teh box, rather than a copy and paste skills I learnt in college.

Usually you tend to move away from code and more towards design/architecture as the more knowledge you build up the more you can tell other people on what you want and how etc.

working for a bank it can get stressful, but the rewards (i.e. $$) is great.

petergfiffin

It depends on what you mean by Web Design (typical SW Developer answer!!) If you mean actually doing the design work like picking pictures & the colour schemes and designing how the page should look etc then the best people I've met tend to be graphic designers/artists many of whom only have a very basic knowledge of what goes on under the covers and this definitely wouldn't require a degree in SW. If you mean writing the code that drives the website then you probably would, but I've worked with a lot of SW people who did a primary degree in subjects other than SW and moved into it.

Just on a small point, not sure how much say you have in your work experience placement but from what I've seen over my time (about 10 years in SW now) is that the type of company the person is placed with tends to be the type of company they stay with i.e. financial, SW development house, embedded etc. just something I've noticed so choose wisely!!

IRLConor

Evil Phil wrote: »

I've worked on a really good project that got delayed by months because of one designer who decided he was a coder too. All it takes is one bad apple.

In my experience it has been due to bad project management more than anything else. Managers in those kind of companies rarely come from a technical background so they're terrible at estimating the amount of time it takes to write goodworking code. Coders are bad enough at that themselves!

Ginger wrote: »

It can be a very rewarding job when everything works and all is deployed and you sit back and think I did that...

Some times it can be a nightmare, bad requirements, unbelievable deadlines and incomprehensible code.

It has its ups and downs..

The sense of achievement after completing a difficult part of a project is immense. The downside comes shortly after when the bug reports start rolling in.

The good days are when you get a straight run at some code. The time just flies by.

Ginger

Coding is not a 9 to 5 job. Some days you walk in, your finger dance on the keyboard and your code just works.. doesnt matter what you try it just works and works well.

Other days, you look at the computer, the computer looks at you, both pieces of the equation just waiting for the other part to do something.

Its hard to explain to non coders because its all about creative process, you need to the correct frame of mind, which doesnt all fit in a 9-5 time frame

seamus

Ginger wrote: »

Its hard to explain to non coders because its all about creative process, you need to the correct frame of mind, which doesnt all fit in a 9-5 time frame

Had one of them on Monday. Wrote 3 Object classes in PHP for constructing and rendering DIV-based online forms based on entries in a database in about 90 minutes. And aside from the usual simple bits (like forgotton semicolons), the thing worked exactly as I'd seen it in my head and exactly as I'd been trying to figure it out for the last 2 weeks.

I've just been poking it with a stick for the last four days wondering what else I can do with it

I wouldn't be a software dev or a web dev by any definition but I do a fair amount of coding in my job, and there's nothing better than those days where you're churning out line after line of elegant, clever and working code.

That's always offset though by those days when you just can't write even simple stuff without making a complete meal of it (and then rewriting it properly the next day).

dazberry

It can be a mixed bag, really depends if you're in a good job or not. If you work for a good employer that understands and facilities the software development process its can be the best job in the world. If you don't it can be a pretty miserable experience. Like hussey I work in a bank but in my case I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Its an experience based career, but for any job there's the right experience and the wrong experience, and if you find yourself going down the wrong track your career is pretty much going to ground to a halt. Ginger is correct when he talks about upskilling - the key is getting the right experience for your next job - unfortunately that's something that we don't get in the bank where I work - and its a shame because there are some really talented people here - and we're all stuck.

Now I know I sound really negative - simply because my career is fcuked - but it is great work - I still can't believe that people actually pay me to do this - I'd just love to do it somewhere else. If you have an interest and an aptitude for it then it is really something worth following.

D.

NeverSayDie

Schism wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, they help a lot.

I'd also like to ask, would I be wrong in thinking that if I went and got a degree in Software Development this would open up doors for me in other areas of computing? for example Web Design.

Yeah, it certainly could - several of my peers that graduated with software engineering or computer science degrees now work in web design.

Keep in mind though, as folks have pointed out above; web design is a very different skillset and area of expertise to software development. It's really a graphic designer's business; you need a good deal of artistic talent to do it any way well. I'm a pretty good developer, and as it happens I have a strong interest in HCI and user interface tech, but I wouldn't consider myself much of a designer. I can produce functional and usable web UIs pretty OK, but if I wanted something properly presentable, I'd be on the phone to a professional designer.

God knows we've all seen the results when a developer thinks they can do design work (or their manager does), and at best it leads to thoroughly mediocre UIs. Likewise, trying to get designers or HTML hackers to write non-trivial amounts of code tends to end badly too. Just because they can write code, doesn't mean they can build software.

Things like business consultancy, technical sales and marketing, etc, could also be possibilities for someone with a software background, assuming you're so inclined. (and haven't taken the direct routes in the first place).

DublinWriter

I don't want to come across as Captain Burnout here, but don't get into programming unless you really, really, really love it.

I'm 20 years in IT now, and I've seen programming as a profession go completely down the pan during that time.

Where to start with what's wrong? Well, not wanting my reply to turn something the size of War and Peace, most corporate IT shops are dysfunctional to the point of complete irrelevance.

I'm afraid that the only way to get ahead in IT these days is get a first in a Zoology degree, get hired by a big consultancy and spend the rest of your career writing nonscence client specifications and playing golf with the company partners on weekends.

Evil Phil

DublinWriter wrote: »

playing golf with the company partners on weekends.

Yep, I've worked a lot of *consultants* who took up golf to improve their career prospects.

Note to OP: I'm leaving dev work in 2 years. But 12 years of it has been good overall.

Schism

Thanks for all the replies guys, I've sort of made my decision now. Well it's made regarding software development anyway, it's not for me I think but at least now I know.

dazberry

DublinWriter wrote: »

I'm 20 years in IT now, and I've seen programming as a profession go completely down the pan during that time.

Where to start with what's wrong? Well, not wanting my reply to turn something the size of War and Peace, most corporate IT shops are dysfunctional to the point of complete irrelevance.

I for one would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this should you wish to start a new thread on the subject.

D.

conceited

Schism I think you might prefer it as a hobby, more so than a job

ElvisP

spent 14 years in all areas of IT. used to be really interesting and challenging until the managers moved in and sucked the life out of it. you now spend an inordinate amount of time in pointless meetings trying to explain the simplest concepts to morons who can't grasp the most routine.

also, you'll have to learn excel because that's the only tool the standard manager can grasp a basic knowledge of. if you want a realistic view of modern IT and its managers, read the comic strip dilbert. he nails it.

have left and am now studying in a completely different field. much happier.

those who can - do. those who can't - manage.

Schism

For those of you getting out of software development, what are you planning on doing? and for those of you who are staying put, where would you like to be?

Ginger

I am moving in Architecture and Design. I also head up our training for the team at the moment...

Currently my job is 75% coding, 25% management.. and it will move out of coding within 18 months

DublinWriter

ElvisP wrote: »

those who can - do. those who can't - manage.

Very true. I would class as completely inept 95% of the IT Managers and CIO's that I've worked for in the past 20 years and I'd cite them as living examples of that HRM phenomenon known as 'The Peter Principle'.

The reason internal IT has usually a bad rep with the business is because of incompetent IT Management/Directorship. This is turn leads to outsourcing, which is usually when the real tears start to be shed.

The reason IT Management in general is so poor is because anyone with the requisite leadership qualities climbing the greasy corporate ladder would consider the IT Department to be the kiss-of-death career-wise.

Eoin

ElvisP wrote: »

those who can - do. those who can't - manage.

That's a bit clichéd by now. Management normally requires a very different skill set than development. While I agree that many managers would not be able to do what members of their team could do, I would say that the reverse is equally true. Programmers often get tunnel vision and don't think about the myriad of other factors that a manager has to deal with. To mention an obvious one - "man management"; IT attracts a LOT of socially inept people who can be a nightmare to manage, and would never make a good manager themselves.

Personally I don't particularly want a manager who knows the technical stuff inside out, because they don't normally need to know it that well, and would probably just stick their oar in too much. Once they have good people on their team, they should be able to deal with all the other crap and trust their team's ability.

Phibsboro

Ginger wrote: »

Coding is not a 9 to 5 job. Some days you walk in, your finger dance on the keyboard and your code just works.. doesnt matter what you try it just works and works well.

Other days, you look at the computer, the computer looks at you, both pieces of the equation just waiting for the other part to do something.

Its hard to explain to non coders because its all about creative process, you need to the correct frame of mind, which doesnt all fit in a 9-5 time frame

I think that gets it exactly. I have a mate who writes books and from discussions with him it would seem coding is a very similar process. As regards going to work in it, I think if you've coded in college and looked up to find 5 hours has passed when you thought it was 15 minutes, then consider doing it as a living for a while. If that never happened I genuinely wouldn't bother, you'll get eaten by all the kids who do love it. Managing to get "flow" is important in any job but especially so in a creative one liking coding.

I came to professional coding late in my career and have had a ball doing it. One downside I find though, and I'm not sure if this is just me, is that it is *tiring* If I'm reading a new spec and trying to get my head into the different loops within loops needed to code it, I am good for nothing that evening - just mind wrecked!

C

Paul_D

I’m on the middle of my computer science degree. It's time for me to choose one of two streams: games development or embedded development. Both involve a good bit of coding which I do enjoy. What would be the best option for me? My choice is based on availability of jobs in the area, salary and career prospects only. As far as I know there are no big games development companies in Ireland so embedded development might have better prospects??

um7y1h83ge06nx

I did embedded development for Analog Devices in Limerick.

Embedded development is quite a big thing in that company, my stuff was the code for capacitative sensors on mobile phones, MP3 players etc.

Architecture used is 8051 and ARM based controllers.

Send me a PM if you have any questions.