Working as a programmer

DublinDilbert

Paul_D wrote: »

I’m on the middle of my computer science degree. It's time for me to choose one of two streams: games development or embedded development. Both involve a good bit of coding which I do enjoy. What would be the best option for me? My choice is based on availability of jobs in the area, salary and career prospects only. As far as I know there are no big games development companies in Ireland so embedded development might have better prospects??

I can't talk about Game Development but i've been working in embedded development for the past 10 years. There is some companies doing embedded development in ireland, but not a huge amount.

Its a really interesting field to be in, you need to have/gain a good understand of how many real world systems/devices work, as typically embedded devices are at the heart of pretty much every electronic product these days.

I've worked developing software to control anything from 1000A motor controllers to small embedded Ethernet devices and everything in-between.

If your interested in embedded programming make sure to develop your C programming skills, as well as the C++ & java your probably doing at college. Also get a few cheap development kits and have a mess around with them.

Also pay attention to how systems communicate (RS232,RS485,USB,TCP/IP, RF), this is massive part of embedded systems these days as typically systems will be inter-connected.

aoraki

I'd echo a lot of what Ginger said. The upskilling aspect is BIG, because it's a knowledge industry and it's changing at a fast pace.

I think to have a career with longevity, you need to be the type of person that A) enjoys the process of programming and gets a kick out of solving problems and gets a kick out of learning new stuff. If either sounds like a drag to you, then avoid.

From a financial point of view, it's not too bad. Starting out it's not great to be honest. But if you're working with in-demand technologys (.NET and J2EE are current biggies for example), if you get a few years under your belt and learn your trade you can demand a decent wage and make a good living out of it. And if you want to go work for yourself at some point, the contracting rates are pretty good too. Bear in mind though that a lot of tech firms will not pay you for overtime or weekend work (however, if you're working for a big Bank or a similar organisation, the overtime and weekend rates can be quite good).

It's a pretty flexible career. In most developed countries there is reasonable demand for developers, so it's a job that can travel well. Also, if you want to stay in Ireland and fancy a job with a bit of travel thrown in, there are US multinationals and various consulting companies that can offer that. There are development jobs with varying degrees of client facing as well.

It's a bit like a trade, there are tools to master, skills to learn. Different jobs require different tools. Over the years you pick up more tools and skills and build up your toolbox.

DublinWriter

Phibsboro wrote: »

I came to professional coding late in my career and have had a ball doing it. One downside I find though, and I'm not sure if this is just me, is that it is *tiring*

One thing is for sure and that's coding isn't a viable career-long activity. You *will* get burnt-out.

These days I think it's less and less about the code and more about knowing the framework that you're developing for, e.g. J2EE or .net.

Years ago, you'd be handcoding literally everything from scratch. These days you take advantage of the tools offered by your platform of choice.

Thankfully, most languages now are most derived from classic C, so moving from C++ to Javascript isn't as much of a leap than say moving from COBOL to FORTRAN in days of yore.

Eoin

DublinWriter wrote: »

These days I think it's less and less about the code and more about knowing the framework that you're developing for, e.g. J2EE or .net.

Years ago, you'd be handcoding literally everything from scratch. These days you take advantage of the tools offered by your platform of choice.
.

I was just thinking that the other day - when I started out doing ASP, you could spend days writing a JavaScript calendar date picker thingy and now with asp.net, it's an out of the box control that needs to be tweaked. Same with all the gridview controls, field validators etc. There's a lot more configuring than coding these days.

MOH

Watch Office Space.

I've worked with a lot of those people over the years.

Phibsboro

DublinWriter wrote: »

One thing is for sure and that's coding isn't a viable career-long activity. You *will* get burnt-out.

These days I think it's less and less about the code and more about knowing the framework that you're developing for, e.g. J2EE or .net.

Years ago, you'd be handcoding literally everything from scratch. These days you take advantage of the tools offered by your platform of choice.

Thankfully, most languages now are most derived from classic C, so moving from C++ to Javascript isn't as much of a leap than say moving from COBOL to FORTRAN in days of yore.

totally agree re the framework - for a problem solver type coder this actually makes things much more satisfying as you can get stuck into the problem. On the other hand I have know a few more techie coders get frustrated by the use of an internal framework which is common on large scale j2ee projects.

As for it being a career long activity - my experience is that there isn't really any such thing any more. Your career will move and develop as time goes on - trying to nail down something now that you think will last for the rest of your life is probably going to end in disappointment. Do something that will you get up in the morning and when you start to see the writing on the wall go do something else.

C

Eoin

For many people this is true, but if you want it, there definitely is a life long career in development - though it will probably be as a contractor. I've worked with a good few people who just spend 6 months at a time as a team lead / principle engineer on a fixed term project, and then move on. The variety of workplaces can make up for doing very similar work over and over again.

There are lots of people out there who would hate to give up getting their hands dirty and just wouldn't be happy managing other programmers.

As I alluded to earlier, management is not a natural progression from developer, as it takes a lot of other skills that you don't automatically pick up. It's not like accounting in a big 4 where you automatically move up the ranks as your experience increases.

Paul_D

Paul_D wrote: »

I’m on the middle of my computer science degree. It's time for me to choose one of two streams: games development or embedded development. Both involve a good bit of coding which I do enjoy. What would be the best option for me? My choice is based on availability of jobs in the area, salary and career prospects only. As far as I know there are no big games development companies in Ireland so embedded development might have better prospects??

so going back to my question. it seems from replies and other people I talked to that embedded systems stream would open more opportunities from me then games programming? I would really want to work for a big company like intel or alike.

Sean^DCT4

Paul_D wrote: »

so going back to my question. it seems from replies and other people I talked to that embedded systems stream would open more opportunities from me then games programming? I would really want to work for a big company like intel or alike.

Career suicide..

I started off in a large company as a junior developer and got 0 experience.
I am now in a very small development setup and see the whole software life-cycle.
The difference in experience is vast to say the least.

This is the case with most large/small development houses.

bpmurray

I disagree - in a big company you work with very experienced people and can learn a lot from them. Of course, you *MUST* ask them for help and guidance - sitting on your hands in a big company really is suicide.

I've been programming on all sorts of hardware on all sorts of Operating Systems using all sorts of languages for almost 30 years and it's been fun. I don't get to code much these days (and miss it) but the important point is that you have to enjoy looking at problems and finding a simple but elegant solution.

Go for the big companies to understand how it's done to earn money, and then work for a few years in a small company to see what it's like to frantically keep the wolf from the door, and then go back to the big one, where you'll jump into a senior role, if you've done it right.

Big companies want the clever coders, the enthusiastic entrepreneurs, the clever and ambitious people: that's what you have to aim for. Big companies also have more money, which is what it's all about, after all!

DublinWriter

bpmurray wrote: »

Big companies want the clever coders, the enthusiastic entrepreneurs, the clever and ambitious people: that's what you have to aim for.

I would disagree completely.

'Big companies' want someone who has experience in V5.2 of X, anyone with experience of V5.1 of X won't make it past the HR gatekeepers.

In-house IT in big corporates is usually the most dysfunctional department in the organisation, adopts a silo-mentality and spends most of its time policing itself and saying 'no' the requirements of the greater business.

Big-companies are bureaucracy-bound, especially in relation to IT.

Someone starting off in IT would gain far more experience in a small company than they would in a big one.

Eoin

I think that's a rather broad generalisation DublinWriter. I've worked in small/medium software companies, as well as companies with over 10,000 staff and have found positives and negatives in each.

seamus

DublinWriter wrote: »

Someone starting off in IT would gain far more experience in a small company than they would in a big one.

Actually, I would say that people are better off in a medium-sized company than a small one. You still get the benefit of being able to dip your toes into a whole pile of things, but also with the backup of a sizeable team.

In a small company with only 3 or 4 people in "IT", it can be quite stressful when you're the only person who knows how to do a number of tasks, and also there tends to be tighter constraints on budget, so you're stuck with 5/10 year old hardware until you can justify spending money on new stuff (i.e. until the old stuff breaks).

gollem_1975

DublinWriter wrote: »

I don't want to come across as Captain Burnout here, but don't get into programming unless you really, really, really love it.

I'm 20 years in IT now, and I've seen programming as a profession go completely down the pan during that time.

Where to start with what's wrong? Well, not wanting my reply to turn something the size of War and Peace, most corporate IT shops are dysfunctional to the point of complete irrelevance.

I'm afraid that the only way to get ahead in IT these days is get a first in a Zoology degree, get hired by a big consultancy and spend the rest of your career writing nonscence client specifications and playing golf with the company partners on weekends.

where can I subscribe to your newsletter ?

Am reading a book called "my job went to india : 52 ways to save your job" by Chad Fowler at the moment.

I wish I had read it a couple of years earlier.

I think it gives a realistic perspective on the industry at the moment and gives some advice valuable for people currently working and those aspiring to work in the Software Industry.

the aforementioned book refers to another book called The Pragmatic Programmer ( which I haven't got around to reading it yet .. but I have time on my hands now )

perhaps the OP might want to read either of these titles ? has anyone else read them and if so what are your opinions ?

IRLConor

gollem_1975 wrote: »

the aforementioned book refers to another book called The Pragmatic Programmer ( which I haven't got around to reading it yet .. but I have time on my hands now )

perhaps the OP might want to read either of these titles ? has anyone else read them and if so what are your opinions ?

The Pragmatic Programmer is excellent. Loads of great advice and very digestible.

A couple of times I've felt down about coding I've (re-)read that and/or Jon Bentley's "Programming Pearls" to remind me of some of the stuff I love about programming.

dazberry

I find those books really frustrating and I have read a lot of them - some repeatedly, from The Mythical Man-Month to Cockburns Agile Software Development. Truely brilliant and IMO every serious developer should read them. Why do they frustrate me? Because if you work in a sh1thole - there are no happy endings. All those crazy examples from Acme ABC that sound so ridiculous on paper are where you work. Dilbert's pointy headed boss has nothing on your overlord. All those really simple things that could make life so simple for everyone - are apparently against company policy, and sure lets put all the developers in an open plan office with the sales staff - because chaos and noise are good - and no headphones. I feel an idea for a book coming on

D.

DublinWriter

dazberry wrote: »

Dilbert's pointy headed boss has nothing on your overlord.

Client: We want a web-based application
Me: Ok, how about we develop it in c# .net
Client: But it's company policy to use Microsoft technologies
Me: c# is a Microsoft Technology
Client: Oh, ok, can't we use VB instead? All our existing systems are written in VB
Me: Ok, you're the boss, VB and ASP.net it is
Client: ASP? Can't we just use VB? We can only use Microsoft technologies.

I kid you not. This from someone on a salary of nearly €100k pa.

...and before you ask, the individual's people-management and project-management skills were even worse than their technical knowledge.

Most of the time working in the I.T. sector is like 'Night of the Living Numpties'. As a consultant, it's always a pure-joy for me to work directly with end-users because at least they know what they want, but it's a tough political balancing-act to do this and play ball with internal I.T. departments at the same time.