Tail Docking

Morganna

VEGETA has made a valid point by showing an injured tail .I have seen dogs having to have their tails amputated by the vet at an older age and they suffer greatly .Its better for them to be done at an early age even though i think its barbaric

whitser

also taking pups from their mother to a vets were there'll be sickness/germs etc... in the air is not a good idea. just so he can do something thats easily done at home.

stevoman

while we are on the issue here i think it a fair to say that sometimes it is nessesary to dock a tail and once done properly and there is a valid reason for it!

funny though tail docking can create such debate in human society, but how many doctors has anyone heard of that wont circumcis a penis, espeically in jewish cirles!!! - sometimes is has to be done but other times ,like docking, its cosmetic!

MsFifers

But its prob a bit delusional to say it doesn't hurt any more than just a pinch.

Its more like removing a baby's toe than any ... soft tissue ...as Stevoman suggests!

whitser

so leave it and have it bleed like the picture vegeta put up?
fact is how ever it hurts,the pain soon stops and theres no lasting damage and it saves a lifetime of hardship especially in working breeds like spaniels,terriers,hpr's etc...

MsFifers

whitser wrote: »

so leave it and have it bleed like the picture vegeta put up?

Did I say that? (to quote a phrase often used by yourself!)

Just be honest about it, thats all I'm saying and the only reason I am saying it btw is in case some people reading are of the opinion that puppies have no nerves in their tails etc etc, and dock tails unnecessarily on pet dogs (as opposed to working dogs with their strange spagetti tails getting tangled up in everything.;))

whitser

fact is pupies cant talk,so no one knows how painfull it is. i've never seen a spagatti tailed dog but i have seen dogs with tails just like the one in veg's pic. and fair play to him for putting that pic up cos it speaks volumes more then anything i could say. to be honest,that pic wins the argument as far as im concerned.

lightening

whitser wrote: »

to be honest,that pic wins the argument as far as im concerned.

What exactly happened to the dog in the pic Whitser?

My dog is docked, got him like that but he is not a working dog, he never needed to be docked.

whitser

thats what happens when a dog works in cover without his tail docked.

Vegeta

lightening wrote: »

What exactly happened to the dog in the pic Whitser?

The dogs in the pics (I added another, hence plural), well no one here can know because they are just random pics on the internet but that is what the damage done when hunting looks like.

Repeated damage leads to a lump of scar tissue on the end of the tail, hair wont grow there so it is even more open to damage.

I currently have 2 dogs and neither have their tails docked before anyone jumps down my throat and says I'd dock anything. They are both working dogs.

Look I think dogs who are prone to get hurt in cover should have their tails docked, any other dog (including my setter and lab) does not need it nor should they get it done. Now I could stay here and argue on and on about this with folk like I have in the past because I wont change their mind as they're are simply not open to the idea.

I base my opinion on years of working dogs, nothing more, nothing less. I cant work an unfit dog so their health is the most important thing to me. Do dogs get damaged in cover? yes, see the pics. Does docking prevent this? Well on the dogs I've owned yes it has. Should show dogs or pets get it done, hell no.

lightening

Vegeta wrote: »

before anyone jumps down my throat

There is a a lot of that lately!!

Vegeta wrote: »

Look I think dogs who get damaged in cover should have their tails docked

I think your right there from what you and whitser say. I have never seen it to be honest, but it looks painful.

Jules

I also think the agruement that they are more likely to have their faces or paws or what is left of their tails docked torn while working it thick cover what you want to do next have those parts surgically altered? You say it is painless etc because that is what you want to prove but it is bull. It is painful and runs a high risk of infection.

BlackCat2008

If docking is necessary then only a vet should do this they do give the pups a numbing injection before going ahead with the op and that is what it is an operation and it should only ever be done by a qualified vet never a home job, for litters some vets will call out to do them all only if they know they will become working dogs, docking not done by a vet is illegal for many reason not to speak of the pain and suffering it causes a pup who should be enjoying it's young life and learning the world around it not sick from infection or in to much pain to want to play, play is there way of learning they shouldn't be too sick or in too much pain to do so. Every creature with a heart beat feels pain from the tip of it's nose to the tip of it's tail or head to toe it's pain no matter what way you want to look at it, people try to say they don't feel it at such a young age to try to make everyone feel better about it the truth is the pup can't fight back by bitting so they don't feel it's suffering. It's curelty in my book full stop.

MsFifers

Yes - the point is that if is has to be done, it should only be done by a vet.

This nonsense that it doesn't hurt is quite annoying. Of course it hurts.

I'm not sure why Whitser has such a problem acknowledging that.

lightening

MsFifers wrote: »

Of course it hurts.

It HAS to hurt, but from what they are saying it saves a lot more hurt in some cases later on.

Vegeta

Jules wrote: »

I also think the agruement that they are more likely to have their faces or paws or what is left of their tails docked torn while working it thick cover what you want to do next have those parts surgically altered?

If you are referring to me then the answer is simply no for several reasons

You say it is painless etc because that is what you want to prove but it is bull. It is painful and runs a high risk of infection.

No, I have not said it is painless so I am not trying to prove anything, in fact I highly doubt it is painless. Judging by the amount a tail seems to bleed I assume there are a lot of blood vessels there and nerves.

whitser

MsFifers wrote: »

Yes - the point is that if is has to be done, it should only be done by a vet.

This nonsense that it doesn't hurt is quite annoying. Of course it hurts.

I'm not sure why Whitser has such a problem acknowledging that.

ok it hurts,so does getting a tooth pulled. but the pain soon goes away, the pups dont suffer any long term damage and it saves a lifetime of suffering.
i just know that working dogs especially gundogs and terriers need it done. i've docked about 30 pups approx,not huge number, and never had any problems. and i'll continue to dock any litters of working dogs i have in the future. i dont do it for apperance,i couldnt give a fcuk what my dogs look like as long as they're fit,healthy and good at their job.

The Sweeper

Whitser

If you have a litter of four pups, do you dock every tail on the guaranteed knowledge that every pup will be a working dog? Do you only give/sell pups to people who will use them to work? Have you ever parted with a tail-docked pup that lived its life out as a family pet?

whitser

all my pups are docked at 3 days. so not all will have homes ear marked. but as they are sold,normally given away to friends, as working dogs they are done. thats not to say some havent gone to pet homes. but at the time of docking i would have hoped all would spend their days hunting.

whitser

just want to add.im not a puppy peddler,churning out pups for money. i've bred about 5 litters in 17 years and to be honest if i broke even on the money spent rearing,wheaning and worming the pups i was lucky. most pups were given away for free to other hunters.

Jules

Vegeta wrote: »

If you are referring to me then the answer is simply no for several reasons
No, I have not said it is painless so I am not trying to prove anything, in fact I highly doubt it is painless. Judging by the amount a tail seems to bleed I assume there are a lot of blood vessels there and nerves.

Vegeta, please don't take this the wrong way but no im not refering to you. You are one of the people from the hunting forum i repsect as you are open to critisim and can have a two sided conversation.

Vegeta

Jules wrote: »

Vegeta, please don't take this the wrong way but no im not refering to you. You are one of the people from the hunting forum i repsect as you are open to critisim and can have a two sided conversation.

No offence taken and I greatly appreciate the civility, especially when often these issues bring out the worst in folk (myself included)

Jules

It is very true, it is a very heated debate. But i think it is the close mindedness of people who say it doesn't hurt or it's in the best interest of the dog to have it done and the old cherry oh the vets don't have to do it i can do it myself when most of the time it is not in the pets best interest and if it is going to be done a vet should do it. Pardon if i rant.

whitser

it is in the best interest of the dog, it probably does hurt but pain soon goes away,its for the best. i can do it myself, and with no problems.
the only one with a closed mind is you, docking is never necessary and cruel. despit the fact thats its been shown to be necessary in certain working breeds.

peasant

whitser

Innocent question ...is it REALLY necessary to send a working dog into a situation where it could hurt itself to such an extent ...can that not be avoided?

whitser

thats what they've been bred to do. try and stop a springer,terrier,hound,lurcher etc.. working..you cant. ok sometimes they'll hurt themselves but you'll never see a happier,fitter dog then one doing what comes totally naturally to him.
a dog doing his work is a joy to behold, its why i hunt. we are all open to risk of injury in our work place or in the sports we par take in. working dogs are tough,tougher then most people give them credit for. all i can do is make sure they are as fit and healthy as possible and minimise risk of injury by docking a tail if it needs be.
its very seldom dogs will injure themselves more then scrapes or grazes.
grey hounds can pull muscles racing, should we stop racing them? if we stop working working breeds then its the end for them breeds. that programme the other night showed how important it is to keep breeding fit strong healthy working dogs.

seamus

The fact of the matter is, the vast, vast majority of dogs bought/reared in this country will not be working as ratters or fox hunters or other occupations which will require them to spend a lot of time in the undergrowth.

The practice should be regulated, and vets/breeders should require proof that the animal will be doing this work before proceeding with the docking.

Once the animal is more than 3 weeks old, all docking should be prohibited, except when it's required for the dog's health (i.e. when they've damaged their tail).

My parents bought two Jack Russell pups who were docked at 4 days. They still have something of a small tail, but it's a pity that they'll never have the distinctive curly tail of the Jack Russell because of some utterly pointless operation. All of the pups were docked and all of them went to family homes as pets.

whitser

the vast majoritry of pet bred dogs will go to pet homes. but the majority of dogs i bred and others breed for work will go to working homes, altough not all. but if you have to dock at 3 days then you cant not do all the litter.
i can only speak for myself. if someone who breeds show dogs wants to defend why they dock,let them. but i dock for practicle reasons and nothing else.

whitser

seamus wrote: »

The fact of the matter is, the vast, vast majority of dogs bought/reared in this country will not be working as ratters or fox hunters or other occupations which will require them to spend a lot of time in the undergrowth.

The practice should be regulated, and vets/breeders should require proof that the animal will be doing this work before proceeding with the docking.

Once the animal is more than 3 weeks old, all docking should be prohibited, except when it's required for the dog's health (i.e. when they've damaged their tail).

My parents bought two Jack Russell pups who were docked at 4 days. They still have something of a small tail, but it's a pity that they'll never have the distinctive curly tail of the Jack Russell because of some utterly pointless operation. All of the pups were docked and all of them went to family homes as pets.

regulate this and that...nanny state springs to mind. if a dog is from working parents chances are it will be sold/given away as a working dog. i dont need a cert of a vet to say my dogs are workers.
i can understand people being against docking just on cosmetic reasons. but docking working dogs has never been about cosmetics.

MsFifers

The problem is - as you've acknowledged yourself - not all "working" dogs actually "work".

So it is a big problem trying to figure out how to discourage people from unnecessarily docking tails, when there is such a widely held belief that it is no big deal.

I do find it strange that animals are so poorly designed for what is supposed to be their natural work ie that they are so commonly injuring themselves by simply wagging their tails as you say happened to your friend's dogs. You wouldn't normally find such a design flaw the animal kingdom. Strange - thats all.