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Evolutionary advantage of religion?
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As robindsch and Wicknight and nozzferrahhtoo have pointed out.................As Wicknight and nozzferrahhtoo have pointed out, your question incorrectly assumes that there is an evolutionary answer, or at least, an answer which includes some measure of first-order selection advantage which accrues to holders of religious beliefs above those who don't. Which I don't think generally happens to be the case.ideas will be subject to natural selection and over time, the ones which propagate best will outbreed those which don't, and will eventually come to dominate the idea pool.
And, put simply, I'd guess that we could confirm that religious folk have larger families, giving them a head start, and that folk raised in religious families tend to pass that religion on to their children.meme-carriers will be more united than non-carriersI think it's quite amazing that there are any of us atheists on this planet at all.0 -
Ignoring hinduism and buddhism which I'm not familiar with, the dominant religions in the world today, islam, christianity and judaism include instructions to its meme-carriers to make war upon meme-non-carriers and with religion being a social binding agent, it seems likely to me that meme-carriers will be more united than non-carriers, so they stand at least an even chance in a one-on-one-conflict.
If that's true for Christianity then why does Jesus (the founder) tell us to love our enemies? And when struck on the face to turn the other cheek etc??? Sort of throws that whole hypothetical memes assertion about religion into disarray doesn't it? Or perhaps I jump the gun and mistake your words to make war as being literal instead of merely metaphorical? Did I?0 -
Soul Winner wrote: »If that's true for Christianity then why does Jesus (the founder) tell us to love our enemies? And when struck on the face to turn the other cheek etc???
The message may be to love them, but the message clearly is not one against smiteing them anyway. You can love them all you like while you slice them all up.0 -
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »The message may be to love them, but the message clearly is not one against smiteing them anyway. You can love them all you like while you slice them all up.
But then slicing them up is not exactly turning the other cheek. Is it?0 -
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Soul Winner wrote: »If that's true for Christianity then why does Jesus (the founder) tell us to love our enemies? And when struck on the face to turn the other cheek etc???
Anyhow, phrases like the ones that you quote simply increase, not decrease, the number of people who find christianity attractive. It's a bit like the phrase "compassionate conservatism" -- bilious conservatives will like the second word, while decent people will like the first -- one phrase captures both markets. As do instructions both to kill your neighbor, while loving him.
With religion, you really can get it both ways, or at least, the religious think they can.0 -
Soul Winner wrote: »But then slicing them up is not exactly turning the other cheek. Is it?
No, but then you take the turning the other cheek quotation out of context. I would heartily urge you to read the entire sermon on the mount passages and the interpretations thereof. Instead the quotes come from an era where honour and shame were both important and could be used as more effective weapons than violence in a struggle.
Culturally at the time turning the other cheek was a form of passive resistance rather than acceptance of the beating as it would suggest to us now. Due to certain cultural reasons it would be unlikely that the other cheek would be struck due to certain beliefs about the left hand.
The other forms of resistance mentioned in the full quote also have cultural connotations which also display a crafty way to injure the attacker without the use of violence.
A similar mistake is that of saying there is a commandment saying "Thou shalt not kill". This is erroneous and the commandment is actually "Thou shalt not murder" and the bible is rife with what qualifies a just killing over an unjust murder.
Jesus was also said to say that if you do not have a sword you should get one even if you have to sell your clothes to get the money. Hardly the position to be held by a complete pacifist. If total non violence was his creed then espousing the bronze age equivalent of NRA doctrines that everyone should carry a gun is hardly a formative first step.
I would guess the message in these words is more to do with avoidance of violent retaliation where possible, not complete prohibition against it. Of two victors the greater will be the one that achieves victory without recourse to violence.0 -
Taking the USA, for example, I see no "turning the other cheek" in mainstream christianity there. It's an aggressive and political heavyweight of a religion if ever there was one
I agree, most mainstream "Christianity" has long since departed the true message of real Christianity. Which is "Grace and Peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" both salutations they seldom extend to other Christians never mind the world in general, so to hold them up as representative of the Christian message is indeed a tragedy for the faith.Anyhow, phrases like the ones that you quote simply increase, not decrease, the number of people who find christianity attractive.
Did you mean that the other way around???It's a bit like the phrase "compassionate conservatism" -- bilious conservatives will like the second word, while decent people will like the first -- one phrase captures both markets. As do instructions both to kill your neighbor, while loving him.
I'm lost nowWith religion, you really can get it both ways, or at least, the religious think they can.
Well as long as Jesus was performing miracles (whether you believe that or not), feeding people, healing people He was thronged by crowds, but as soon as He told them to take up their cross and follow Him, they all left Him (which said crosses meant to leave family and friends etc and follow Him). The true message of Christianity which involves bearing your cross has never been a popular message and never will be, because it involves denying oneself. I rarely see that displayed amongst the religious right tin America. Catholics are probably the closest to it but even they serve self over God in many respects also. What people think Christianity is these days (especially in America) is not Christianity at all. They seek out a version of it that they can approve of and find likeminded people and then set up or join that Church. A true Church takes all of what Jesus said on board and shouldn’t cherry pick the parts they like best and only do them.
Here's how it should work: God gave some Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, and Pastoring Teachers to perfect the saints to the work of the ministry. This outlines some important points. 1. You start out as a saint. 2. It shows that saints are not perfect when they do start out contrary to what tradition would have us believe. The word for saint in the Greek is 'Hagios' and it has to do with commitment not performance, the word 'holy' is also traced back to this word, something that is given over to the use of something or someone in commitment, not restricted to religion, could be anything.
But anyway there is always two ways to look at religion. They way the founder wants it to be, or the way the followers want it to be. It’s called objective and subjective opinions. The only opinion that should count is the founder’s objective opinion. So if you are truly following that religion then you will do what the founder says. If you are not doing what the founder says, then you are not a real follower of that religion and this is the case for most of Christianity in the world, especially in America. They are not doing most of the things that the founder (Jesus) said to do, especially denying self and following Him.0 -
Soul Winner wrote: »The true message of Christianity which involves bearing your cross has never been a popular message and never will be, because it involves denying oneself.
This is the thing, and one of the reasons why the Christianity meme has been so successful, there is no true message of Christianity, at least not one revealed through the New Testament. God might know it, but we don't.
Jesus' stories and parables are so vague that the have no actual substance, again like a phrase such as "compassionate conservatisim". It means 10 different things to ten different people.
A phrase like "turn the other cheek" can have a million different interpretations based on the context that one wishes to apply it. It has never stopped wars, and some Christians claim it should another claim it shouldn't. A "just war" is an accepted concept in the vast majority of Christian denominations. When and why and in what circumstances one turns the other cheek is left up to the person themselves.
Same with something like love thy neighbor. What does that actually mean? Again it has little actual substance, it means what ever the person wishes it to mean. Even the definition of neighbor Jesus answered with an vague parable. When a Christian solider is popped out of a helicopter in 'Nam such pleasantries are of little use.
Christianity's strongest fitness as a meme, in my view, is its vagueness.
Jesus' pleasantries appeal to people inner sense of good, while being so vague and abstract as to not really force them into any particular course of action or moral straight jacket. Reading through the New Testament is like listening to one of those Self Help Guru's going through his list of motivational phrases.
Just remember, if you aren't a human being you are a human doing. Think about it. :pac:0 -
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This is the thing, and one of the reasons why the Christianity meme has been so successful, there is no true message of Christianity, at least not one revealed through the New Testament. God might know it, but we don't.
So memes when related to religion has suddenly gone from hypothetical to hard fact all of a sudden? Handy that.Jesus' stories and parables are so vague that the have no actual substance, again like a phrase such as "compassionate conservatisim". It means 10 different things to ten different people.
That’s why when it comes to these sayings you’re better off taking what they are actually saying as what they actual mean in the context of how and when they were said. For instance Jesus tells the Pharisees that the if you sin against the Holy Spirit then there is no remission. He said this in the following context: The Pharisees had said amongst themselves that no man could do the things Jesus was doing unless God be with Him. Then a few verses later they say to Jesus that He does these things by the power of Beelzebub. They willfully went against what they believed to be true in order that their position could be respected. When you read the context of the sayings you can get the general intended meaning, if you don’t you can get any meaning you like.A phrase like "turn the other cheek" can have a million different interpretations based on the context that one wishes to apply it.
I agree and by the same token so can any saying made by anybody fit whatever you want it to fit. You must put it back into the context in which it was said in order to know the meaning that it was intended to convey.It has never stopped wars, and some Christians claim it should another claim it shouldn't.
Well you don't really know that it has never stopped wars in fairness. Maybe it didn't but you don't really know so arbitrary statements like that are hardly helpful.A "just war" is an accepted concept in the vast majority of Christian denominations.When and why and in what circumstances one turns the other cheek is left up to the person themselves.
But that doesn’t change the context in which the words “turn the other cheek” where uttered by Jesus does it?Same with something like love thy neighbor. What does that actually mean?
There are 3 words in the Greek for love. Eros, Phileo and Agapao. Eros is sensual. Phileo is brotherly love hence the city of Philadelphia is called the city of brotherly love, the you do for me and I do for you kind of love. Then we have Agapao which is the word used in this context. It is a selfless act of love in order to do for somebody else without any thought of anything in return. This is the kind of love that Jesus was talking about. Phileo sought is phileo never attained, because in order to get phileo you must first have Agapao. An example of Agapao would be like, lets say you are drowning in a river and you know that you are drowning and know that you cannot escape and somebody at risk to themselves jumps in and saves you and brings you to safety, you will not have to talk yourself into liking that person on the riverbank. That love you feel is phileo, you want to do something for that person now. The act that he or she did for you was the agapao kind of love. And this is the love that Jesus was talking about when He said love thy neighbor. Does that clear the ‘love thy neighbor’ thing up a bit for you?Again it has little actual substance, it means what ever the person wishes it to mean.
No it doesn’t, I’ve just explained what it means so it can’t have any other meaning other than the words that were used to say it. You see you need to learn a bit of Greek in order to understand the New Testament a bit better. It was written in Greek not English, so if the English seems somewhat ambiguous then that is just the way it was translated from the Greek. English does not have the words that the Greek uses so they used the same English to translate three different words in the Greek. English is a very ambiguous language. One word can have many meanings which is probably one of the reasons why God chose that in the fullness of time when He would send forth His son into the world that it would be dominated by a language frame like Greek. Probably the most precise language the world has ever known.Even the definition of neighbor Jesus answered with an vague parable. When a Christian solider is popped out of a helicopter in 'Nam such pleasantries are of little use.
To what are you referring?Christianity's strongest fitness as a meme, in my view, is its vagueness.
It might be many things but vague is not one of them. Learn some Greek and by a Greek New Testament and read that then tell us it is vague.Jesus' pleasantries appeal to people inner sense of good, while being so vague and abstract as to not really force them into any particular course of action or moral straight jacket. Reading through the New Testament is like listening to one of those Self Help Guru's going through his list of motivational phrases.
I can only point to the reply I just gave.Just remember, if you aren't a human being you are a human doing. Think about it. :pac:
Or a human being doing0 -
Soul Winner wrote: »What’s wrong with a just war?
I’d say that Islam runs explicitly on a ‘tit for tat’ basis. Christianity implicitly runs on a ‘tit for tat’ basis.0 -
Soul Winner wrote: »Did you mean that the other way around??? [...] I'm lost now [...] A true Church takes all of what Jesus said on board and shouldn’t cherry pick the parts they like best and only do them.
Even here in this small corner of boards, there are many conflicting interpretations of the text on offer. The only common belief is that the belief-holder is pretty-much right, and everybody else is pretty-much wrong.
This capacity for multiple-interpretations is central to the religion's continuing, if declining, popularity.Soul Winner wrote: »There are 3 words in the Greek for love. Eros, Phileo and Agapao.Soul Winner wrote: »English is a very ambiguous language. [...] Greek [...] Probably the most precise language the world has ever known.
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Soul Winner wrote: »So memes when related to religion has suddenly gone from hypothetical to hard fact all of a sudden? Handy that.Soul Winner wrote: »That’s why when it comes to these sayings you’re better off taking what they are actually saying as what they actual mean in the context of how and when they were said.
That just makes it even more vague and open to interpretation. Who was Jesus talking to, and what significance does that have on the parable. Where was he at the time, and what significance does that have on the parable. How similar to Old Testament parables is Jesus' parable and what significance does that have on the parable etc etc. All this is left to the opinion of the person reading the passage. The weight they put on each factor is left to them to decide. A person can shift around the weight any way they wish, like a child playing in a sand box.
If there is any true meaning it is lost in a sea of necessary interpretation and re-interpretation.Soul Winner wrote: »What’s wrong with a just war?
Saying love thy neighbour but have wars against them if necessary is largely pointless.Soul Winner wrote: »But that doesn’t change the context in which the words “turn the other cheek” where uttered by Jesus does it?
Jesus is telling his disciples to turn the other cheek toward those attacking them, to embrace the violence as demonstration that they are righteous and the person is evil.
Or not.
Jesus might be telling his disciples that they should walk away from evil without getting involved.
How one interprets that passage is up to them.Soul Winner wrote: »It is a selfless act of love in order to do for somebody else without any thought of anything in return. This is the kind of love that Jesus was talking about.
That still doesn't explain what that actually means. I'm not asking what syntaxically it means, I know that. I'm asking what it means in a practical sense.
Again it is just a silly sound bite, designed to sound appealing but which has absolutely no substance, like a hippie saying "All you need is love". How someone interprets that in a practical sense is left entirely up to them.Soul Winner wrote: »To what are you referring?
When a Christian soldier is standing on a battlefield with a load of Viet Cong baring down on him, what does "love thy neighbour" mean to him in that context? Are they his neighbour? How is he to love them?
Does he fire back or does he let them kill him. Does he throw down his weapon or does his point it at them. Does he turn the other check or does he lob a grenade. What would Jesus do?
You see none of Jesus' vague sound bites actually mean anything in any tangible sense. They don't translate to how someone actually lives. They don't form morality, a shape of how someone reacts in a situation based on moral principles.
They just sound nice, appeal to a vague sense of decency that we all have, like Lennon saying "All you need is love", or "War is Over". But there is no substance there.
Actually forming a morality is left to the reader, and they do that based on how they interpret Jesus' sound bites, not based on what they say.0 -
Posted this over in the creationism thread but I reckon it has a better home here.
Here's a nice article on superstition which would easily extend to religion.
New Scientist: Superstitions evolved to help us survive.
To summarise- making causal connections based on insufficient information will tend to give an evolutionary selective edge. The connection is non-existent in the vast majority of cases, but in very rare cases there's a threat to life. The cost:benefit ratio is favourable. They suggest that this is not the case in the modern world, hence our mis-application of the habit so that we now salute magpies, refuse to walk under ladders and talk to a man in the sky. Evolution works in terms of hundreds of thousands of years and we've changed our world too quickly. Essentially confirms some stuff I was suggesting regarding the advantage of religion.
Primary paper is in the works but it looks like they've really nailed that one. Their basic model is very cleverly designed but very simple.0 -
AtomicHorror wrote: »Posted this over in the creationism thread but I reckon it has a better home here.
Here's a nice article on superstition which would easily extend to religion.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14694-superstitions-evolved-to-help-us-survive.html
It could extend to religion, and in a lot of cases the two do overlap but it is still sepreate and disticnt from religion.
I grew up as a Catholic. I always thought that I believed that there was a God but I never really knew anything about Him on a personal level. My mother always thought me to bless myself (make the sign of the cross) before leaving the house or when passing a church or a graveyard. For years I did these things out of fear of what might happen if I didn't. In fairness to my Mam she never said that anything bad would happen, she herself didn’t really know why she did these things, it was just implied that bad things might happen if you didn’t, so we both did them simply because they were passed down by older generations and no questions were allowed to be asked. I believe these habits are a good example of an extension of manmade superstition overlapping with religion, in this case it was with Catholicism, I’m sure every religion has its own versions.
But the distinction should be made that superstition and religion are different. Does that mean I’m against people having superstitions? Nope, I don’t care, just don’t tell me that I have to have them without explaining why adequately. And to this day my Mam still can’t tell me why I need to bless myself, or why I need to have my kids Christened and so on. Jesus said we make void the Word of God by our traditions. There is nothing in God’s Word that says we have to bless ourselves or that we have to get our kids Christened and make their communion and so on. Nothing about not walking under ladders, or eating meat on Good Friday and so on. They've just been added on by men through the centuries to the extent that they eclipse the original God intended message and therefore replaces it, until God raises up somebody like Martin Luther to shake it back to its foundations.
Anyway, years later and after I had learned a thing or two about my religion and about the Christ which is presented to us in the pages of the New Testament and the letters of the Apostle Paul, I grew out of those old habits. You could say that hearing the truth about Jesus delivered me from them. Now it doesn’t bother me at all that I don’t bless myself anymore because I’ve learned that I can’t bless myself, if God exists then only He can truly bless me. So yeah, these things can extend into religion, but when you study and read a few books about your religion, religion itself can deliver you from the practice of such things.
St Paul says, let no man judge you in meat and drink or in respect of an holy day, this also applies to superstitions. The thing about things like this is that you will always have people who hate religion wanting to make religion one and the same with superstition and as has just been pointed out you can’t do that, they are different even though they can overlap with the intrusion of man, even to the detriment of the religion in question which I’m sure was not their intention, it's just that Satan is very crafty0
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