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insurance summons

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    #32
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I would advise anyone to sit in any district court in the country and observe just what goes on.

    Gardai are under pressure to get a "return of work" and issue as many summonses as possible.

    Innocent people are then summonsed to court and the cases are struck out.
    No conviction but the Garda has more work done on the system.

    Sit in court anywhere and watch this its plain and obvious what goes on.

    goes on everywhere:
    http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/news/story/?trs=mheyojmhid


    http://www.roscommonherald.ie/news/story/?trs=qlsnsnmh



    http://www.leitrimobserver.ie/news/Road-traffic-cases-were-most.4315850.jp



    http://www.sligoweekender.ie/news/story/?trs=mhgbauqlau



    http://archives.tcm.ie/waterfordnews/2008/07/25/story29004.asp





    Its only a matter of time before someone takes a case against the state to claim back their expenses and a days work lost from this kind of messing.
    Nog you know what Im saying. All it will take is some big business man to lose some deal or make a huge loss from having to hang around in court to have his case struck out.

    Ok I see the point you are trying to make here but if you read all the newspaper reports that you have kindly provided links for us you will see that no where is it mentioned that any summons or charges were struck out or dismissed due to the fault of the Gardai.

    What could happen in court

    1. is if the Judge feels that the Garda evidence is not strong enough then of course the Judge will strike it out but honestly I have seen very few of them. It does happen on occasion but we are only human and do make mistakes.

    2. a person is facing many charges/summons and the judge convicts on the more serious charge and dismisses the rest. Example I had a case where I arrested a man for drunk driving, dangerous driving, no insurance, failing to produce insurance, no licence and failing to produce licence. That man was convicted of drunk driving and dangerous driving after he pleaded. I requested the judge strike out the remaining charges which was what the judge was going to do anyway. I knew he was going to convicted of two more serious charges so what would be the point to kicking him while he was down. End of the day he was an alright fella and was gonna be disqualified and fined.

    3. the judge feels accused gave a reasonable explanation for a silly mistake such as failing to produce and decided to offer the accused the chance to pay into the poor box or donate to charity so as not have a conviction. THis was reported from the Waterford News ( the last link )/

    "Innocent people"??? A Garda is hardly going to summons a person to court when he knows in his heart and soul he will not win. The majority of people that are summons to court are for minor traffic offences only. And if all these people that are going to court and annoyed their cases were struck out and wasting their time, why hasn't anyone tried suing the state yet??


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    #33
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,322 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    VH wrote: »
    ....the very fact you are up in court means that you are wrong in some way....
    Wouldn't want you on a jury!

    Not your ornery onager



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    #34
    VH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 690 ✭✭✭VH


    TheNog wrote: »
    Even I carry my cert around with me even though I have never been stopped and asked to produce.
    thats the give-away - a garda, if stopped, would produce his/her garda ID - not his/her insurance cert


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    #35
    VH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 690 ✭✭✭VH


    esel wrote: »
    Wouldn't want you on a jury!
    I'm speaking from experience here! :(


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    #36
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    patrickc wrote: »
    its your job to follow up when people dont have it with them, its not compulsory stop whining

    I wasn't whinging but merely describing the process of summonsing a person who failed to produce.

    I do realise it is not compulsory for a driver to have their insurance cert with them but I was just pointing out it is easier for the driver and the Garda if the cert was produced at the roadside.

    I don't need my National Diploma in Police Studies to know that but just using some common sense
    patrickc wrote: »
    see picking on people yet again, typical garda

    There is a very good reason for picking on these type of people which I will not go into here. And just to clarify, not all young people or travellers are stopped and searched, just the ones we know cause problems.
    patrickc wrote: »
    its the gardas job to follow up on this stuff.. system or not they're paid for it..

    That's right it is our job, thanks for reminding me that :rolleyes:


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    #37
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    VH wrote: »
    does this constitute impersonating a garda? isnt that an offence?

    It is an offence to impersonate a Garda but it is not an offence if you are one!!! :cool:
    VH wrote: »
    thats the give-away - a garda, if stopped, would produce his/her garda ID - not his/her insurance cert

    some gardai might produce his/her badge alright. Happened once to me when I stopped an unmarked drugs car from Dublin. Your man told me it was an unmarked and showed me his badge. He wasn;t best impressed him I did a reg check and personnel check on him too.. Can never be too careful

    I don't carry my badge when off duty 'cos there is no need. I have nothing to hide and any checkpoint I'm stopped at I just see myself as like everyone else being stopped. The only time I would identify myself as a mule is if another mule needed assistance.


  • Options
    #38
    MunsterCycling
    Registered Users Posts: 4,864 ✭✭✭MunsterCycling


    TheNog wrote: »
    I don't carry my badge when off duty 'cos there is no need. I have nothing to hide and any checkpoint I'm stopped at I just see myself as like everyone else being stopped. The only time I would identify myself as a mule is if another mule needed assistance.
    Em thought you had to carry it at all times as per the Garda regs? Free entry to nightclubs etc ;)


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    #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    TheNog wrote: »
    Ok I see the point you are trying to make here but if you read all the newspaper reports that you have kindly provided links for us you will see that no where is it mentioned that any summons or charges were struck out or dismissed due to the fault of the Gardai.

    What could happen in court

    1. is if the Judge feels that the Garda evidence is not strong enough then of course the Judge will strike it out but honestly I have seen very few of them. It does happen on occasion but we are only human and do make mistakes.

    2. a person is facing many charges/summons and the judge convicts on the more serious charge and dismisses the rest. Example I had a case where I arrested a man for drunk driving, dangerous driving, no insurance, failing to produce insurance, no licence and failing to produce licence. That man was convicted of drunk driving and dangerous driving after he pleaded. I requested the judge strike out the remaining charges which was what the judge was going to do anyway. I knew he was going to convicted of two more serious charges so what would be the point to kicking him while he was down. End of the day he was an alright fella and was gonna be disqualified and fined.

    3. the judge feels accused gave a reasonable explanation for a silly mistake such as failing to produce and decided to offer the accused the chance to pay into the poor box or donate to charity so as not have a conviction. THis was reported from the Waterford News ( the last link )/

    "Innocent people"??? A Garda is hardly going to summons a person to court when he knows in his heart and soul he will not win. The majority of people that are summons to court are for minor traffic offences only. And if all these people that are going to court and annoyed their cases were struck out and wasting their time, why hasn't anyone tried suing the state yet??

    The fact of the matter is if you sit in ANY district court you will witness case after case struck out because people HAVE insurance.
    I am saying that Gardai knowingly issue summonses to increase their return of work. Its all a numbers game.


  • Options
    #40
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,311 ✭✭✭markpb


    patrickc wrote: »
    its your job to follow up when people dont have it with them, its not compulsory stop whining [...] its the gardas job to follow up on this stuff.. system or not they're paid for it..

    Would you agree that there aren't enough Gardai on the road enforcing the rules and stopping people from acting the maggot?

    If you agree with that, you'll also agree that a Garda sitting in a station typing up a waste of time report would be better off on the street doing their proper job.


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    #41
    bmaxi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,859 ✭✭✭bmaxi


    Just as an aside, I remember when insurance discs came out first. My car had just died having been very ill for a long time, (Triumph Toledo, POS). Now at the same time a mate of mine's insurance had run out and he couldn't afford to re-insure so he offered the car to me to use while I was looking around. About two weeks later I was stopped at a checkpoint and the Garda told me I could be prosecuted for non display of an insurance disc. I explained that I couldn't display a disc because I didn't own the car but that I was fully covered to drive it under the terms of my own policy." It doesn't matter " he said, "the prosecution is for non-display". I never heard any more, so I presume he thought better of it or wiser heads prevailed but I think it just demonstrates how idiotic the whole thing is. As Nog said the disc only proves that there is a policy in force for the car not that the person behind the wheel is insured to drive it.


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    #42
    VH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 690 ✭✭✭VH


    TheNog wrote: »
    I don't carry my badge when off duty 'cos there is no need.
    a garda off duty is still a garda and you are saying you leave your one and only means to prove it at home when off duty?
    TheNog wrote:
    The only time I would identify myself as a mule is if another mule needed assistance.
    this is all getting a bit miami vice - but how can you identify yourself when off duty if you've left the only proof at home?


  • Options
    #43
    craichoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭craichoe


    patrickc wrote: »
    its your job to follow up when people dont have it with them, its not compulsory stop whining



    see picking on people yet again, typical garda



    its the gardas job to follow up on this stuff.. system or not they're paid for it..

    I'm sure if you were in a public facing job we could rant and nit pick at every comment you make too.

    IMO, the Gardai are just doing their Job, its on in their interest to make MORE work for themselves.


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    #44
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Do insurance companies not recommend that your cert not be kept in the car in case of robbery etc... That's the only reason mine is in the household bills and such like folder.


  • Options
    #45
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,776 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    bmaxi wrote: »
    ....... About two weeks later I was stopped at a checkpoint and the Garda told me I could be prosecuted for non display of an insurance disc. I explained that I couldn't display a disc because I didn't own the car but that I was fully covered to drive it under the terms of my own policy." It doesn't matter " he said, "the prosecution is for non-display". I never heard any more, so I presume he thought better of it or wiser heads prevailed but I think it just demonstrates how idiotic the whole thing is. As Nog said the disc only proves that there is a policy in force for the car not that the person behind the wheel is insured to drive it.

    ...I well believe. But, and you can test this if you like:

    If you transferred your cover to the loan car, even temporarily, you are covered to drive it legally. Now, the disc for your (covering...) policy is your original one - the reg on it is irrelevant. So, if you were to put your original disc (which has your own car's reg) disc on the windscreen, then, you cannot be prosecuted for 'failure to display', as that disc is merely indicative of you holding a policy XXX, which does indeed cover you to drive the 'loaner' car.

    Quite clearly, the requirement is that you display a valid insurance disc, the policy under which you are covered to drive the car. In my example above, you would clearly meet that requirement.

    The insurance disc itself is not a valid Cert of Insurance under the RTA - which is why there's no use bringing it to the station when given a 'producer', either - and so the issue of the reg no displayed on the disc is actually........irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the policy number. Garda can - as Nog has explained - make a quick -phone call to confirm that policy no and cover. QED.

    Look at it this way: how many people have sold/bought/scrapped cars, and forgotten to retrieve/return the discs? Exactly. Because it matters not a jot, in insurance terms.

    Or, consider: Fleet policies with multiple vehicles. Same common policy number, and no reg no's on any. The disc is merely to display the policy no.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • Options
    #46
    DaveyGem
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭DaveyGem


    luder wrote: »
    Exactly...if they really wanted to see if you had insurance on your vehicle a quick vehicle registration check to the station would inform them if you had insurance or not.

    Not true. There is no system which the Gardai have/ exists that can check if a car is insured simply by checking the reg. The Garda can of course ring the insurance company and ask. But they do noy have direct access themselves...


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    #47
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    ninty9er wrote: »
    Do insurance companies not recommend that your cert not be kept in the car in case of robbery etc... That's the only reason mine is in the household bills and such like folder.
    They do.

    For certain people being asked to produce at a station can be a major pain in the hole. The station may not be local or be open at convenient times etc. For these people it saves considerable hassle to have the cert on their person when driving.


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    #48
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    MunsterCycling wrote: »
    Em thought you had to carry it at all times as per the Garda regs? Free entry to nightclubs etc ;)

    The Code does recommend to carry it all times and the notebook too for times they may be needed but tbh in this day in age no one carries there notebook. Some do carry their badge and some don't. It is a matter of choice. If any senior officer wanted to have it out with an off duty member without a badge they would have a hard time getting that member disciplined.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The fact of the matter is if you sit in ANY district court you will witness case after case struck out because people HAVE insurance.
    I am saying that Gardai knowingly issue summonses to increase their return of work. Its all a numbers game.

    If a person fails to produce insurance cert within the ten days then we must suspect they may not have insurance. The burden of proof is then on that person to prove they had insurance at the time they were stopped. If they have insurance and prove it then that summons is struck out but they will/can be convicted of failing to produce. Same goes for the driving licence.
    Such is the traffic law of this country. Remember Gardai do not create the laws just enforce them.
    Next time you are court have a look at the people who produce their documents to the guard before the court begins. YOu will usually see the guard request the judge to strike out the no insurance or no licence summons or else they will wait until after they give evidence and the driver gives his/her explanation and produces the documents and the judge strikes them out. Same thing either way.

    The Government has not provided us with a reliable method of checking on insurance.

    You should see it as catching those people who are driving without a licence and insurance rather than a numbers game. I think that is reasonable enough.
    VH wrote: »
    a garda off duty is still a garda and you are saying you leave your one and only means to prove it at home when off duty?

    Yes
    VH wrote: »
    this is all getting a bit miami vice - but how can you identify yourself when off duty if you've left the only proof at home?

    Its not miami vice at all. ONly recently I assisted two gardai in apprehending two males who failed to stop at a checkpoint and decided to tear around the town at 100mph. That time was in still in my uniform 'cos I had only returned home from work so the two guards recognised the clothes.

    If a guard or even two guards need assistance say with a violent prisoner help is appreciated from anyone able to help. One female member had trouble restraining a prisoner so a member of the public assisted her. These situations do happen from time to time.


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    #49
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,322 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    TheNog wrote: »
    If a guard or even two guards need assistance say with a violent prisoner help is appreciated from anyone able to help. One female member had trouble restraining a prisoner so a member of the public assisted her. These situations do happen from time to time.
    Isn't it an offence not to render assistance if requested by a Garda?

    Not your ornery onager



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    #50
    VH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 690 ✭✭✭VH


    TheNog wrote: »
    If a guard or even two guards need assistance say with a violent prisoner help is appreciated from anyone able to help. One female member had trouble restraining a prisoner so a member of the public assisted her. These situations do happen from time to time.
    so a member of the public is allowed restrain another member of the public if a garda says so? I have never ever seen this - I have only seen the opposite - gardai telling other members of the public to stay back.


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    #51
    TheNog
    Registered Users Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    esel wrote: »
    Isn't it an offence not to render assistance if requested by a Garda?

    No it is not an offence and the reason I'm guessing is that if it was law and person was injured helping a guard then that person could in turn sue the state.

    VH wrote: »
    so a member of the public is allowed restrain another member of the public if a garda says so? I have never ever seen this - I have only seen the opposite - gardai telling other members of the public to stay back.

    Yes a person can offer or be requested to help a guard. It is entirely up to that person whether they want to help or not.

    More often than not a guard or gardai will have the situation under control and request people to stand back so as not to present a danger to themselves or the guards.

    Also a person can detain another who they reasonably believe has commited an indictable crime until such time as the gardai arrive. In the U.S. they call it "Citizen's Arrest".


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