ELVs and Munster

Tim Robbins

I can't think of a team that will be more impacted by the ELvs.
In the positives, Stringer and O'Gara two of the fastest passers off set piece ball will provide excellant opportunities for Mafi and Tipoki to attack the huge space now at scrums. What I can see working really well under these laws is getting the 10, 9, 8, 15, 11 to attack the extra space, especially from an inside pass from either of the centers or a loop pass from the 10.
Not sure Munster have the players for that.

In defense, 10's will now be far more exposed. O'Gara will have to tackle or else cover the blindside and put Dowling in that spot.

As for the Maul, well this was a staple diet for Munster lads, how will they play now?

And finally, not an ELV but refs have been told to ping sealing off at the breakdown. They were always supposed to do this, but never did (bit like straight in at the scrum). Munster won the Heineken Cup by sealing the ball off against Toulouse, that won't work this year.

Comments...

Gelio

Well Munster will be in trouble without their maul

Tim Robbins

ajeffares wrote: »

Well Munster will be in trouble without their maul

They won '06 with their maul, but in fairness they haven't been using it as much since.

At a lineout a defensive team has to be 10 meters back. If there's an ensuing maul, and the hindmost foot of the maul crosses the line out of touch, this 10m law no longer applies and the defense can come up.

Of course this doesn't matter if you are close to the try line, as you might end up scoring. But Munster '06 would maul off a lineout all over a field which is effectively saying, we ain't using backs.

The '08 team used the maul far less and the pick, drive and seal off far more.

Either way, tactics employed by '06 and '08 ain't possible this year.

Gelio

Yeah its as if they saw the ELVs coming and changed their tactics

theKramer

ajeffares wrote: »

Yeah its as if they saw the ELVs coming and changed their tactics

No, they have just have been steadily progressing from a forwards only, up yer jumper, game to a gradually more expansive game as the quality of backs has improved. Dont wanna to progress too rapidly to a more expansive game

Something that De Villiers should have taken on board.....

Hansel

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I can't think of a team that will be more impacted by the ELvs.
In the positives, Stringer and O'Gara two of the fastest passers off set piece ball will provide excellant opportunities for Mafi and Tipoki to attack the huge space now at scrums. What I can see working really well under these laws is getting the 10, 9, 8, 15, 11 to attack the extra space, especially from an inside pass from either of the centers or a loop pass from the 10.
Not sure Munster have the players for that.
Look at our options for the backs this year: Hurley, Earls, Carney, Howlett, Mafi, Tipoki, Warwick, Murphy, Dowling, O'Leary. Plenty of pace and skill in there to pull off what is a pretty basic move that you've mentioned above.

In defense, 10's will now be far more exposed. O'Gara will have to tackle or else cover the blindside and put Dowling in that spot.
Ah the old chestnut that O'Gara can't tackle, again. You might want to join us here in 2008 where he can actually make a tackle. He's never going to make a bone crunching tackle, but he's certainly improved and is an adequate defender now. He's not the turnstyle he used to be.

As for the Maul, well this was a staple diet for Munster lads, how will they play now?
We scored two tries using our Maul this weekend. It can still be utilized if used properly.

And finally, not an ELV but refs have been told to ping sealing off at the breakdown. They were always supposed to do this, but never did (bit like straight in at the scrum). Munster won the Heineken Cup by sealing the ball off against Toulouse, that won't work this year.

Comments...

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Tim Robbins

Hansel wrote: »

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I don't rate Hurley, Carney I think has been hard done by.
Murphy needs to bulk up for professional Rugby. Mafi is savage side stepper but not much of a rugby brain or defender.

Anyone who finds any fault with Howlett is an absolute idiot, after that Tipoki is your best back imo.

Hansel

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't rate Hurley, Carney I think has been hard done by.
Murphy needs to bulk up for professional Rugby. Mafi is savage side stepper but not much of a rugby brain or defender.

Murphy is big enough, he just needs to get a break from injury.
To say that Mafi isn't much of a defender is rubbish though, his defence last year was superb. He has stopped rushing out of the line which was his only issue. I think he lacks the distribution skills to make a top class 12 though.
Hurley is a fine player struggling with confidence. His first game in the HEC against Gloucester he coped admirably under a lot of high balls. He has the ability, all he has to do is regain it. You can't write him off after only a few games.

Tim Robbins

Hansel wrote: »

Murphy is big enough, he just needs to get a break from injury.
To say that Mafi isn't much of a defender is rubbish though, his defence last year was superb. He has stopped rushing out of the line which was his only issue. I think he lacks the distribution skills to make a top class 12 though.
Hurley is a fine player struggling with confidence. His first game in the HEC against Gloucester he coped admirably under a lot of high balls. He has the ability, all he has to do is regain it. You can't write him off after only a few games.

Tipoki is 1.83M and 93 Kg. Mafi is 1.83M and 90Kg. D'arcy is 1.8M and 90Kg. Murphy is 1.88M and 86 Kg.

If you hit Murphy hard enough, he can't offload, he can't even keep it tucked in to set up a ruck. Everyone raves about him, because he scored a block down against Sale and did a shimmy.

He needs an extra 5Kg of muscle mass.

Hansel

I wouldn't trust those official stats, they still have Donnacha Ryan as 14 stone. Barry has bulked up quite a bit. Met him a couple of weeks ago and he's easily as heavy as Mafi.

Snickers Man

I think one of the things O'Gara is going to love about these ELVs is the opportunity they will give him to drop more goals.

For the hard-headed victory-focussed tactician that any top out half must be, and O'Gara certainly is, taking your points scoring opportunities at all times is a must. Now, with the offside line at a scrum 5m back instead of level with the hindmost foot, it will become almost impossible for the defending backs to charge down a dropped kick attempt. The only person with an earthly chance of doing so will be the open side flanker, and he will have to be watching the opposing half backs like a hawk to time his run from the scrum. His scrummaging effort will clearly be diminished.

I would expect to see a lot more dropped goals coming from attacking scrums this season. Especially using the European version of the ELVs in which breakdowns will usually be resolved by the award of a scrum, rather than a free kick. I understand that with the SH version of the ELVs, most breakdowns are resolved with the award of a free kick. And you cannot attempt a dropped goal directly from a free kick, even if you opt for a scrum instead of a tap and go. So down there, some scrums are different to others, especially in terms of the options presented to the half backs.

Confused?

I am, a little. And they say the ELVs were supposed to simplify things.

anonymous_joe

To what extent will the new rules effect Munster (and sadly Ireland's) love of kicking for territory. Even when we had the best backline in the NH we still played very conservative territory based rugby.

Also will Munster finally stop wasting Howlett? :pac:

Downtime

Snickers Man wrote: »

Especially using the European version of the ELVs in which breakdowns will usually be resolved by the award of a scrum, rather than a free kick. I understand that with the SH version of the ELVs, most breakdowns are resolved with the award of a free kick.

Most breakdowns will be resolved by a sanction of a penalty rather than a scrum. In the SH where free kicks are awarded their equivalent here is a penalty. Scrums only apply to an unplayable which happens 2/3 times a game.

toomevara

All NH clubs will have to fundamentally re-orientate their perspective on the game. Think Munster may be the most affected of all the Irish provinces, but it cuts all ways...alot of the English clubs with their love of bump and grind, one out rugby will (initially at least) have a tough time under the ELV's. I expect the likes of Wasps, Toulouse, S.Francais, Llanelli and the Ospreys to really prosper next season...

kermitdfrog

The ELV laws here do not change anything with regard to infringements at the breakdown, so what was a penalty before will be a penalty now, what was a scrum before will be a scrum now, etc. This will not affect the number of drop goals from penalties, as one would just elect to take the kick at posts anyway.

Tim Robbins

kermitdfrog wrote: »

The ELV laws here do not change anything with regard to infringements at the breakdown,

All refs have been told to (and explictly told) to ref hand rucking for attacking teams and sealing off. They used to turn a blind eye to both. This will create more of a contest at the breakdown, rewards team who are better at offloading and can keep the ball away from the breakdown.

kermitdfrog

Tim Robbins wrote: »

All refs have been told to (and explictly told) to ref hand rucking for attacking teams and sealing off. They used to turn a blind eye to both. This will create more of a contest at the breakdown, rewards team who are better at offloading and can keep the ball away from the breakdown.

Again, the ELVs have not changed the laws at the breakdown at all. These are laws that are being enforced, not changed. And the punishment is not changed for offenses at the breakdown, which was my point.

It is worth noting though, that in the case of free kicks (such as in the SH ELVs), and the thoughts of how many more drop goals would be attempted if those laws were applied here, if a free kick is awarded you cannot attempt a drop goal directly from the free kick. This means that if you are awarded a free kick and you CHOOSE to set a scrum, you cannot attempt a drop goal directly from the scrum, there must be another phase of play (i.e. there must be a breakdown). You can, however, choose to attempt a drop goal if a scrum has been awarded by the referee, or if a scrum is selected as a result of a penalty (I think, not sure on that last point).

Tim Robbins

kermitdfrog wrote: »

Again, the ELVs have not changed the laws at the breakdown at all. These are laws that are being enforced, not changed. And the punishment is not changed for offenses at the breakdown, which was my point.

Yes you are correct there. They have not changed. How they will be reffed is what's changed. Either way, teams will have to change tactics. There's no way Munster could have won the Toulouse match if it was reffed accordingly (or to the letter of the law).

kermitdfrog

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yes you are correct there. They have not changed. How they will be reffed is what's changed. Either way, teams will have to change tactics.

True. It's like one of our players down the club (who's played most of hs rugby in NZ) said though - "Eh, I thought that's the way it's always been? Certainly the way I've always played...". It just hasn't been enforced here for some time, and as a result has gotten worse and worse, leading to the flop and seal off that was so apparent last year.

There's no way Munster could have won the Toulouse match if it was reffed accordingly (or to the letter of the law).

I wouldn't go that far! They certainly could not have won it in the manner they did though.

Snickers Man

Downtime wrote: »

Most breakdowns will be resolved by a sanction of a penalty rather than a scrum. In the SH where free kicks are awarded their equivalent here is a penalty. Scrums only apply to an unplayable which happens 2/3 times a game.

I don't think that's true. Under the existing laws, if the ball doesn't emerge from a ruck, a scrum is awarded to the team going forward. If it doesn't emerge from a stationary maul, a scrum is awarded against the team that brought it in.

As I understand it, under the ELVs currently in use in the SH, in the situations described above a free kick is awarded instead of a scrum. (Europe is not adopting those sanctions as part of their experimental laws)

You can opt for a scrum from the free kick if you wish but I believe, and I'm not sure about this, that if you take a scrum instead of a free kick, you face the same restrictions on dropping a goal as if you had tapped and passed.

bleg

just have to keep the maul rolling

[Jackass]

To be honest, Munster are no mugs and they played to their strengths last season (to what was legal) and whatever changes will prevent them from playing that game plan this season, you can be sure there will be a new plan A that will be as formiddable as before.

No rule that effects Munster doesn't effect the rest of us. It's still a level playing field and with backs like Howlett, Tipoki, Maffi and Earls (who was impressive at FB vs Canada and should displace that useless eejit Hurley from FB for Munster as I doubt he will get a centre spot), they have a decent backline to spread it wide.

The game seems to be a lot more tactical in it's kicking now, teams seem to kick the ball away a lot more, and in O'Gara they have one of the best in the world at a tactical ping pong game.

Their weakenesses still exist as before, 10 channel is a going concern in defence, perhaps individual skill levels aren't as strong as other teams, but they're a great team unit.

I doubt Munster will be any less of a team this year though than they have been for the last decade and will be there or there abouts come the business end of the season.

If we can get the group right, I've no doubt Leinster will be there with them.

All in all though I seriously doubt it will crumble Munster like some people think / hope. Granted the rules (and not taking the p!ss here - no offence) have been brought in to prevent teams from playing the type of rugby Munster, and the likes of England in 03 have played, but Munster will be forced to play now, and I don't doubt they can do it.

On the flip side, Leinster just put together a very decent pack when these rules have come in, so it will effect us too and take away some of the dominance we could of had with our pack. So it's all swings and roundabouts.

Downtime

Snickers Man wrote: »

I don't think that's true. Under the existing laws, if the ball doesn't emerge from a ruck, a scrum is awarded to the team going forward. If it doesn't emerge from a stationary maul, a scrum is awarded against the team that brought it in.

Yes this is true but what I am saying is that much of the time there is going to be an infringement at the tackle/maul resulting in a sanction.

Snickers Man wrote:

As I understand it, under the ELVs currently in use in the SH, in the situations described above a free kick is awarded instead of a scrum. (Europe is not adopting those sanctions as part of their experimental laws)

This is true in most cases except offside and deliberate infringements.

Snickers Man wrote:

You can opt for a scrum from the free kick if you wish but I believe, and I'm not sure about this, that if you take a scrum instead of a free kick, you face the same restrictions on dropping a goal as if you had tapped and passed.

Correct. The ball needs to go dead, or be touched by an opposition player, or a tackle has to be made.

Hansel

[Jackass] wrote: »

Earls (who was impressive at FB vs Canada and should displace that useless eejit Hurley from FB for Munster as I doubt he will get a centre spot), they have a decent backline to spread it wide.

So he's useless after a couple of poor games? My I suggest that you are the only eejit here? How many times have you seen him play?
It's a bit unfair to call him useless don't you think? He was rock solid in his first HEC outing. He has the ability, and just needs to regain his confidence. To call him useless is nothing short of ignorant. He had a couple of bad games under the high ball. Sexton had a few bad games with his place kicking, should we call him a useless eejit too? No we shouldn't because it's clearly not the case.
Earls is not a fullback. He was only placed back there as there was practically no kicking in the game at the weekend. All he had to do was run good lines, and that's something he does with aplomb. He'd be found wanting in that position fairly quickly by decent opposition.

[Jackass]

Ok, maybe useless eejit is a bit strong, but he is a very very average player. I don't think he has either the defensive stability or attacking flair to even be considered a solid par for the course full back. He's Munsters weakest player.

Tim Robbins

[Jackass] wrote: »

Ok, maybe useless eejit is a bit strong, but he is a very very average player. I don't think he has either the defensive stability or attacking flair to even be considered a solid par for the course full back. He's Munsters weakest player.

I don't think he has the athleticism to make a impact at pro Rugby.
That might change with some building up.

Hansel

[Jackass] wrote: »

Ok, maybe useless eejit is a bit strong, but he is a very very average player. I don't think he has either the defensive stability or attacking flair to even be considered a solid par for the course full back. He's Munsters weakest player.

Again, how many games are you basing this on? Look at the skill and attacking vision he had for Howlett's try against Gloucester. There's talent there, hopefully he'll utilize it. He also made a great break in the churchill cup, can't remember against who, ran the ball almost the length of the field. To say he's poor is just not fair to the guy. Give him time.

Tim Robbins

Hansel wrote: »

Again, how many games are you basing this on? Look at the skill and attacking vision he had for Howlett's try against Gloucester. There's talent there, hopefully he'll utilize it. He also made a great break in the churchill cup, can't remember against who, ran the ball almost the length of the field. To say he's poor is just not fair to the guy. Give him time.

I don't mean to be mean, but any decent Rugby player can put a grubber in, you even see them in tag rugby. You are sounding a bit like the Munster fans who raved about Barry Murphy - calling him the next O'Driscoll when he did one shimmy after a block down and Sale's defense was all over the place.

Hansel

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I don't mean to be mean, but any decent Rugby player can put a grubber in, you even see them in tag rugby. You are sounding a bit like the Munster fans who raved about Barry Murphy - calling him the next O'Driscoll when he did one shimmy after a block down and Sale's defense was all over the place.

And you sound like a leinster fan refusing to acknowledge any Munster talent. I'm not saying that he's going to be a world class player, I don't know how far he'll progress, but to say that he's useless at this stage is ridiculous.
As for Barry Murphy, I'm not sure many people ever thought that he was going to be the next Brian O'Driscoll. We'll be lucky if this country ever produces a talent like that again. Murphy is a very talented rugby player, who hasn't fulfilled his potential due to a long list of injuries. Poor guy has missed both HEC victories due to injury.

Tim Robbins

Hansel wrote: »

And you sound like a leinster fan refusing to acknowledge any Munster talent. I'm not saying that he's going to be a world class player, I don't know how far he'll progress, but to say that he's useless at this stage is ridiculous.
As for Barry Murphy, I'm not sure many people ever thought that he was going to be the next Brian O'Driscoll. We'll be lucky if this country ever produces a talent like that again. Murphy is a very talented rugby player, who hasn't fulfilled his potential due to a long list of injuries. Poor guy has missed both HEC victories due to injury.

If you read my first post, you'd see that opinion to be nothing more than a delusion. Both Leinster and Munster fans, players, teams, branches, coaches, refs have their pros and cons. Nothing is ever perfect.