PUAs in Dublin

Wibbs

sillysasauge wrote: »

Girls get all this kind of advise in magazines like cosmopolitan and vogue, men are just catching up imo.

Actually a good point. Women discuss men and relationships more than men do. Plus as it's largely a sellers market for women particularly in the 18 to 30 age group and they know the habits of men as far as their approaches from a very early age, men by comparison have little clue.

JC 2K3

banshee_bones wrote: »

has nobody realised yet that these books in question, the PUA books and "the rules" are all written by americans for americans?

They simply do not work over here!

It's true that they are very much focused on American culture, and many of the specific examples of approaches and routines would not work on Irish women (not because Irish women are smarter or anything, just because Irish culture and the nature of conversation over here are different).

However, this post highlights the fact that you're missing the point entirely. PUA advice is, in it's most basic form, an insight into how men attract women. The specifics may be different across different cultures, but the fundamentals are universal.

As a very general analogy, think of PUA in the same manner as girls dressing up to go out. Most guys find girls who are dressed up nicely as more attractive than if they were not. Some girls are naturally good at dressing up and this means they will probably attract more men than other girls. Other girls may not be naturally good at this and have to learn to dress attractively if she wishes to look more attractive. In the same way, a guy mightn't be naturally good at exhibiting confidence or an attractive persona when talking to girls, and have to learn to do these things.

Now this is a bit of an oversimplification and generalisation, but the point is that certain things can make you seem more attractive, and there's nothing wrong with wanting to learn how to improve your attractiveness.

Btw, if this all seems very shallow, that's because it most definitely is

johnathan woss

This thread says alot about the state of the country IMO :pac:

Wibbs

Says more about the state of men TBH. A lot of guys are still trying to find their feet and are confused how to go about this. Goes for much of the west.

sillysasauge

If women think that all this stuff is weird and sleazy than to give you an idea of the kind of advise that the community is leaning towards nowadays have a look at this guy who was voted 2nd best "pua" in the world recently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR25MXK1ir8

I would say as long as the person does not get too caught up in this stuff then it will be only a good thing for women, It's like anything balance is key. There are a lot of men out there trying to improve themselves in a healthy way to make themselves more attractive because of this stuff, which can only be a good thing!

NickNolte

Wibbs wrote: »

Says more about the state of men TBH. A lot of guys are still trying to find their feet and are confused how to go about this. Goes for much of the west.

It goes generally for post-capitalist, post-feminist societies where men have lost their identities and are confused about their roles as men. As a result there are double standards abound.

The man is no longer expected to be the sole provider/'gatherer' as men and women have careers and share the child-raising and household duties. Nothing wrong with that of course. Yet men are still expected to persue traditional roles when it suits women. For example, 'making the first move'/being the persuer is still largely accepted as the man's role in contemporary society. Presumably because women don't want to have to work up the courage to chat up men as it's more convenient the other way around and they don't risk rejection.

I can only imagine that this pathetic PUA nonsense is just a way for a lot of guys to come to terms with who they are and to give them the guts to be 'the persuer' even though they're not sure whether they should be anymore or not.

My advice to women... start chatting up men more. Reduce the risk of being hit on by a bloke who's feeding you lines from a book or practicing neuro-linguistic programming on you like you were some sort of scientific experiment.

This thread gives me the creeps.

Well, actually its more aligned with the factors that men are more raised by their mothers than their fathers. Their mothers instill them with a sense off what she would want a son to be rather than what a man should be to attract the opposite sex. Its often said that the biggest obstacle to a serious relationship is the mother of the guy involved. And so, many men are feminized by the raising their mothers brought them up with, creating the "nice" guy.

They lead "normal" lives with other men playing sports, drinking in the bar etc, but they're lacking certain "qualities" that young women are seeking in a mate. i.e. the excitement or danger that attracts most young women. So the "nice" guys are left behind in the dust... until they learn to speak the lingo (or are handsomely endowed in some physical manner)

JC 2K3

Why is it a bad thing being hit on by someone who's read some PUA stuff?

At the end of the day, if a woman has a one night stand with a guy, does it matter whether the guy learned the techniques to pick her up naturally or by reading self help books?

sillysasauge

NickNolte wrote: »

It goes generally for post-capitalist, post-feminist societies where men have lost their identities and are confused about their roles as men. As a result there are double standards abound.

The man is no longer expected to be the sole provider/'gatherer' as men and women have careers and share the child-raising and household duties. Nothing wrong with that of course. Yet men are still expected to persue traditional roles when it suits women. For example, 'making the first move'/being the persuer is still largely accepted as the man's role in contemporary society. Presumably because women don't want to have to work up the courage to chat up men as it's more convenient the other way around and they don't risk rejection.

I can only imagine that this pathetic PUA nonsense is just a way for a lot of guys to come to terms with who they are and to give them the guts to be 'the persuer' even though they're not sure whether they should be anymore or not.

My advice to women... start chatting up men more. Reduce the risk of being hit on by a bloke who's feeding you lines from a book or practicing neuro-linguistic programming on you like you were some sort of scientific experiment.

This thread gives me the creeps.

Well you should be glad to hear that a lot of the top "puas" in the community nowadays are leaning towards a more natural style which is pretty much just giving dating advise based on the psychology of how attraction works and advising on ways to improve yourself.

Lines and routines are now generally seen as dated, especially in the Uk.

I do not see why it is ok for woman to be to obtain this advise from a very young age and it is seen as "creepy" when a man does the same.

free-man

Hey guys,

Couldn't help but jump in here..

Let me say first of all that PUA is not a dirty word as so many people seem to think!

I am a pretty socially adjusted guy, never had a problem with girls on nights out but I always found myself in relationships where the girl wasn't quite right.

I started to read up on some of the material but like most Irish lads I thought it was pretty ridiculous and would never 'work' over here with our stunning savvy irish lasses

That said I was still intrigued by the notion that I could improve the quality of girl that I could attract and hold down a great relationship with a stunning girl with brains. I never acted on anything.

One night while out with my mates on the 'pull' I had the fortune of running into one of the top guys in the world. The guy struck me as really friendly a great guy to hang out with and just good craic. We got talking about the subject and he admitted to who he was (slightly surprised that I hadn't heard of him). He proceeded to get chatting to the hottest group of girls at the club and within 2 minutes he was necking one of them.

This woke me up to a few things, firstly PUAs dont have to be wierdos, canned 'material' should only be used by the most socially meek and the goal should be to be the best version of you you can be (sans routines).

A lot of girls would be shocked if they thought that guys were 'learning' this stuff but I would make the following comments:

a. If anyone is deficient in a skill it is socially acceptable to learn how to
improve in this area (except with girls)
b. Girls have been learning and applying 'techniques' for many years on
how to get the right guy
- Google 'how to get the right guy' see 46million results
- Pick up any girls magazine and see tips for making eyelashes longer,
hair extensions etc to accentuate your natural beauty
- Consider that the book 'The Rules' FAR outsold 'The Game'
c. Most guys employ 'techniques' like buying girls drinks at bars
(ranging from pints to expensive champagne at exclusive venues)
A lot of guys like to brag about their earnings, car etc in the
belief that this will make them seem more attractive etc when they're
really boring the arse off the girl

Most girls i know who i've discussed this with are really supportive of it once it's explained properly. Most girls find common drunken approaches so repugnant at bars its no wonder they've developed 'bitch shields' and can be really nasty to good guys whos confidence is then shot for weeks or months. A few are going out with boyfriends where they were initially lightly 'negged' (in a playful way) which differentiate the guy from all the other drunken approaches and allowed the guy a fighting chance (relationships still going strong)

So i would ask you to think before you judge it.. Yes its true that some guys will use it to their advantage no more than a 'natural' does or a incredibly hot girl uses her looks to get what she wants (free drink, jetset lifestyle etc) but MOST guys just want a nice stable girlfriend and in the current social environment are finding it more difficult than their parents to make those connections...

Let the flames begin

NickNolte

sillysasauge wrote: »

I do not see why it is ok for woman to be to obtain this advise from a very young age and it is seen as "creepy" when a man does the same.

Women wear dresses. When a man does the same, it's creepy.

I would find any man who's preoccupied with picking up women to the extent that he's read a book or go to a conference about it to be socially inept at best and creepy at worst. Sorry for being so judgemental. Enjoy picking up the women though.

JC 2K3

Em... the idea is that men who read these books are socially inept to a certain extent, i.e. they're not very good at talking to girls and/or exhibiting interest/attraction when they do so.

Why should it be a taboo that they should seek some help with this?

sillysasauge

NickNolte wrote: »

Women wear dresses. When a man does the same, it's creepy.

I would find any man who's preoccupied with picking up women to the extent that he's read a book or go to a conference about it to be socially inept at best and creepy at worst. Sorry for being so judgemental. Enjoy picking up the women though.

No bother :)I do agree with you that it becomes very unattractive and a bit weird when people do get preoccupied in all this stuff, like I said before it's like anything balance is key.

A lot of men can get a little bit of information, never read anything on the subject again and go out and find they have far more choice in the girls they can attract. Actually the guy in the video who I linked to actually advises that people do just that, and it is what I have done myself.

NickNolte

NickNolte wrote: »

Women wear dresses. When a man does the same, it's creepy.

I would find any man who's preoccupied with picking up women to the extent that he's read a book or go to a conference about it to be socially inept at best and creepy at worst. Sorry for being so judgemental. Enjoy picking up the women though.

I can still remember as a teenager standing at the edge of the dance floor during the slowset, looking out at my friends who had pulled random girls, and wondering how the hell they did it. And then approaching various girls and being rebuffed. Sure, i met a few girls for that single kiss, or every so often i met a girl confident enough to pick me up, but for the most part I didn't have a clue how to go about it. And TBH I knew plenty of guys who were in the same fix.

Most people i know from my area got into relationships or dating through friends of friends. That reference system that friends use, especially when you're younger. I chose something else. I read a book on seduction. Actually I read a few, and over a few years later I went to three seminars by Ross Jeffries in London. I learned how to feel good about myself, how not to be needy, how to deal with bitches and cock-blockers...

And now, I live a fairly decent life. If i see a woman on the street that I like, I go talk to her. Arrange a date. Simple. And its rare that I wont have follow on dates with that same girl.

This stuff doesn't have to be creepy. It completely depends on the person who is using it, and their motives in doing so. And frankly, most girls will be able to pick up on the creepy guys quick enough anyway.

banshee_bones

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Em... the idea is that men who read these books are socially inept to a certain extent, i.e. they're not very good at talking to girls and/or exhibiting interest/attraction when they do so.

Why should it be a taboo that they should seek some help with this?

Im not saying it is taboo! im all for irish lads learning how to actually speak to women in a social situation! more power to them!

K-9

There is some truth in this stuff and I think that's why many women get defensive over it. Women do tend to go for an Alpha male, though the definition changes as the woman matures and realises what said Alpha is.

As with any self help material, it depends on the user.

I hate The Secret, probably far more harmful than this stuff. "I got a tax refund because of The Secret". No, it's because you applied for a refund and no amount of positive thinking got you the refund, the tax man did!

Overall, if used right, this stuff can be good. If you are using it for short term, selfish reasons, it's useless. (shag with PUA vs. material gain in The Secret)

If it's to gain confidence and overcome insecurities, it's good, same as The Secret. Both are very superficial though.

K-9

I liked "The Secret". I didn't get any monetary gain from it, but the positive outlook is great. It does help to brighten up your day a bit.

K-9 wrote:

If it's to gain confidence and overcome insecurities, it's good, same as The Secret. Both are very superficial though.

Its hardly superficial if you get definite results that help to change your life for the better. The thing you're perhaps missing is that many of the techniques taught through the PUA/Speed Seduction change the person themselves encouraging them to be more than we expect of ourselves.

The thing is that the material on face value is, perhaps, superficial. But the changes it creates in the person using them are worth almost anything... I can't find anything wrong with something that makes someone a better person at communicating both internally and externally.

K-9

Deleted User wrote: »

I liked "The Secret". I didn't get any monetary gain from it, but the positive outlook is great. It does help to brighten up your day a bit.



Its hardly superficial if you get definite results that help to change your life for the better. The thing you're perhaps missing is that many of the techniques taught through the PUA/Speed Seduction change the person themselves encouraging them to be more than we expect of ourselves.

The thing is that the material on face value is, perhaps, superficial. But the changes it creates in the person using them are worth almost anything... I can't find anything wrong with something that makes someone a better person at communicating both internally and externally.

It's superficial if you believe the book, PUA or The Secret is getting you the rewards.

These books should only be a starter, not an end all. If PUA gives you confidence if you where shy etc., it's only a building block. Basically it isn't an end all.

So PUA can be good, but self limiting if left if it's just about getting a shag.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

It's superficial if you believe the book, PUA or The Secret is getting you the rewards.

These books should only be a starter, not an end all. If PUA gives you confidence if you where shy etc., it's only a building block. Basically it isn't an end all.

So PUA can be good, but self limiting if left if it's just about getting a shag.

The books ARE only a starter... Its up to the person to use the material. The books are a foundation for what will come (no pun) if the material is practiced.

Maybe some people do only follow this up for a shag... I don't know. For myself, I started with it because i sucked at starting conversations with women, getting them to go for dates, and the dates themselves were unmitigated disasters. Once that changed, I knew i wanted to know more about what i could use this material for, and what else i could learn to help my life. Which lead me to a deep interest in NLP, self-hypnosis, and meditation.

I still have all the books, videos/DVD's and written material (from seminars) from Ross Jeffries & DeAngelo. I haven't opened or read them in years though. I do have one product on my Mp3 which i play the odd time if I'm feeling down or if I have some tension/nervousness in approaching a woman.. I figured I'd keep them and pass them on to my son if he needs them. Lord knows, they helped me when i needed them.

Oh, and I wouldn't agree to them being self-limiting because they've already done something by reading the book... More than they would have done if they had stayed as they were before. At least they're doing something to change what they're unhappy about rather than sitting on their hands...

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

but self limiting if left if it's just about getting a shag.

That's what I posted.

A shag shouldn't be a goal for self fulfilment.

who007

Wibbs wrote: »

I've looked at some of the stuff as more and more it comes up and more and more "I can't find a woman" stuff comes up in PI. I must say that's the most interesting thing about it from my point of view. It's a very large scale constantly updated and evolved psych experiment. It's probably got more validity within it's limits than a helluva lot of studies into human psychology. I would agree with some of it's broader points, though I think too often it's too blunt an instrument.


I agree, but I think for many many men and I've seen this a lot in the last 10 years or so, they're not very good at it. I would blame some of the social changes that have occurred in the last few decades specifically with regard to the male female dynamic. Not so long ago, the only women a man would have in his life were either family or lover/wife. That was it. having women friends would be unusual. Indeed maybe even frowned upon. Men now have far more access to women in daily life. Far more interaction, but ironically I think this has been a disadvantage in many ways to many men. They're used to talking to women as mates and have forgotten how to talk to them as potential lovers and forgotten how to talk to them as men. Women also have more freedom to choose nowadays and rightfully and thankfully so, but this has left many of both sexes adrift. Ironically we may have gone back to more primitive competitive times with so much choice and many people are not as comfortable with so many choices as they think they are. IME I've noted that people will rabbit on about liking choice in so many areas of life, bt are actually happier when they are given boundaries.

IMHO most men and women get lucky once or twice and settle down with one, who may not be the right one for them(very common). They talk about fate etc which convinces themselves that it's the right choice. Fate my eye. If it was fate, then the first person you meet you would be perfect for you and you would be with the rest of your life. That's very rare. They may not maximise their chances of getting the right man or woman for them, because they've never learned to, because they've never learned who the right person inside themselves is, so any choices on the back of that are often arseways. Or they take what they can get and are happy with that even though it may not be healthy for them, because they don't know how to improve themselves and the choices they make and are frankly afriad of being alone. There are quite a few people reading this that feel their relationship is OK, but also feel there's something not quite right too. The missing piece lies within them.

Do I think this PUA lark is the right option? Not from what I've browsed anyway. Of course I haven't looked deep enough so maybe I'm missing some of the finer points. I do think men need direction at times. I think men need direction to figure out themselves at times too. Maybe this obvious learn by rote stuff is the stepping stone to that. It may simply get rid of the fear of trying. Success breeds success. Of course getting a woman is one thing. It's actually more of a doddle than many think. Quite easy really. Half the people in the world are women so on the numbers alone... We all come from a long line of people that hooked up and this stuff in one form or another has been around forever(with the recent dynamics change thrown in). Getting the right woman is harder of course. You need to get yourself right first. Even then it can be difficult, because she has to have her head together too. the hardest thing of all is not getting a woman, not even getting the right woman, it's keeping that woman and her keeping you and growing together healthily for as long as it lasts. I know far more men who can get a woman, than men who can keep a woman and grow the relationship to mutual benefit. I'd rather be a keep up artist than a pick up artist.

Wibbs, I rarely read all your posts cos they are far too long to keep my attention and I rarely agree with what you say, but as for this post I think you have hit the nail directly on the head with it!

consultech

TBH I think any female who has a problem with seduction, and considers all of this "sleazy/greasy/slimey" etc etc is completely missing another MASSSSIVE double-standard between men/women in society today. As has been said already: Women are taught to manipulate men from childhood, through female parenting/publications/social standards etc.

The "problem" women have with it all is that they have been on their "socially-intelligent" high horses for so long that they can't bear to think that men are finally hitting back and learning how to manipulate them, for the exact same ego self-gratification benefit that is engrained in every girl getting dressed up and teasing men.

There are varying degrees to how certain men use this stuff. On one extreme you have groups of guys going out on a saturday with the sole intention of meeting the hottest girl possible, bringing her home, and f*cking her. End of. At the other end of the spectrum (probably the easier-to-stomach end) you have guys who are just browsing this material and trying to implement it into their life in a positive, personal-development type of way. These guys however, are not PUA's. They are the ones who are just looking for a leg up (not over) and are often looking for a relationship off the back of this (which is fine too).

I went through the "casual-pickups" and one-night stands by using this material, and after a while they grew too shallow, and i wanted relationships. And i got them, and then went back to the one-night stands. Its a circle. PUA is just a state of mind.

Personally, I cant really understand why women might have a problem with this. If they're only looking at it from the sidelines, having never experienced it then they can get all moral and consider it as being deceiving.. But what woman can complain about a man making them feel good about themselves..? Most women want a confident man who can chat to them, and impress them on many levels. What does it matter where the guy learned how to do this? After all, how many women quiz their boyfriends/lovers on where they learned how to pick up women... they just accept it and are happy that they have their bf/lover...

sillysasauge

By the way the same people who do this to help men are branching out to help women as well. Like I said it is more about self improvement nowadays, and understanding the psychology of attraction.

http://www.gettheguy.co.uk/

thefinalstage

I find this whole thing very odd. The guys who take part in these never mention themselves not getting the girl. It does happen even to the best within your circles.

sillysasauge

thelastangryman wrote: »

I find this whole thing very odd. The guys who take part in these never mention themselves not getting the girl. It does happen even to the best within your circles.

That was my reaction when I first heard about it, until I took time to read about what it actually is.

These puas do mention and actively encourage failure as the best way of improving is learning from you're mistakes. The one I read up on encourages approaching more women for the sake of it and not to get anything out of it as the best way of getting over a fear is to confront it, hence if you have a fear of approaching women the more you do it, the more confident you get with it.

I don't even know why I'm sticking up for it all to be honest. I just like people to base their opinions on actual facts and not rumors or the extreme end of the community.

thelastangryman

thelastangryman wrote: »

I find this whole thing very odd. The guys who take part in these never mention themselves not getting the girl. It does happen even to the best within your circles.

Of course it happens.. but a major part of this is not to get hooked on a girl, so you're capable on moving on to find another. So if you're turned down, you just move on an find someone who is receptive to your approaches. Personally I was taught that each time I was turned down was an opportunity to learn more about women. So I would write down what approach i had done, the response, and honestly why i felt it had failed. Then I would look to alternatives if needed, and go out the next night to work it again...

Puddleduck

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course it happens.. but a major part of this is not to get hooked on a girl, so you're capable on moving on to find another. So if you're turned down, you just move on an find someone who is receptive to your approaches. Personally I was taught that each time I was turned down was an opportunity to learn more about women. So I would write down what approach i had done, the response, and honestly why i felt it had failed. Then I would look to alternatives if needed, and go out the next night to work it again...

Why dont you just approach women and talk rather than keeping a diary of conquests and failures.

Tbh I find the whole idea creepy, and thats not because Im jealous that men are now apparently moving into the whole wimminz manipulating the men crap. Thats just because people shouldnt need a manual or seminar on how to approach women, if anything they should work on improving their self confidence in approaching people in general.

JC 2K3

Puddleduck wrote: »

if anything they should work on improving their self confidence in approaching people in general.

And how do you suggest they go about doing this?

(On a side note, I'm quite defensive of PUA advice, not because I utilise it much (I got a girlfriend fairly soon after discovering it, and apart from maybe giving me a more confident mentality, it wasn't really a result of it), but because I don't like something that's helped many guys being viewed as "creepy". People who've never been shy or socially awkward can really be quite ignorant to what it's actually like to be in such a situation.)

tribulus

Puddleduck wrote: »

Why dont you just approach women and talk rather than keeping a diary of conquests and failures.

Tbh I find the whole idea creepy, and thats not because Im jealous that men are now apparently moving into the whole wimminz manipulating the men crap. Thats just because people shouldnt need a manual or seminar on how to approach women, if anything they should work on improving their self confidence in approaching people in general.

WTF? The last couple of pages were guys explaining that what's it really about is just that.

Tbh I've read Strauss some Jeffries, Cunningham and a couple of others and have been able to apply it just to general interactions.

I have a girlfriend of several years who I've zero intention of cheating on but even some of the more basic concepts can help with social situations in general, meeting new people, enjoying a conversation rather than just going through the motions for politeness' sake etc., I'm not talking about attraction.

This is coming from someone who wasn't short of confidence or socially retarded to begin with. It can improve your people skills for want of a less ghey phrase, which is never a bad thing.