Unforgiven 2008 Spoilers

rovert

rovert wrote: »

Good he is a heel.

True, but heels are supposed to be bad guys. Make you hate them. Not hate the direction creative drawn up for them.

Rjd2 wrote: »

Surely being involved in the best feud of 2008 and being responsible for consistently putting on quality free matches on RAW and delivering super promo's are good enough reasons to allow Y2J hold the belt for a wee while? The HBK v Jericho rivalry is the best thing going in the company at the minute so them wanting it to take centre stage and adding the World Title to the mix is fine by me:p

I see what you're saying, but I just don't think that either HBK or Y2J having any belt will do the feud any favors. It doesn't benefit the show in my opinion.

rovert

Deleted User wrote: »

True, but heels are supposed to be bad guys. Make you hate them. Not hate the direction creative drawn up for them.

I see what you're saying, but I just don't think that either HBK or Y2J having any belt will do the feud any favors. It doesn't benefit the show in my opinion.

Please dont take this the wrong way but Im reposting what I wrote:

rovert wrote: »

Surely it is better to marginally affect Punk in order to establish Priceless & Manu and to setup Punk’s first proper program with Orton? While putting the title on Jericho puts more steam on him as Raw's top heel and top feud simultaneously. I swear I’m not taking cheques from Titan Towers.

What is wrong in achieving all this with what they did at Unforgiven?

CMpunked

Deleted User wrote: »

I see what you're saying, but I just don't think that either HBK or Y2J having any belt will do the feud any favors. It doesn't benefit the show in my opinion.

rovert wrote: »

What is wrong in achieving all this with what they did at Unforgiven?

I agree with the both of you.

In one sense, the fact that jericho is now the champ, (to me) is a slap in the face of the feud so far.
This feud was beyond championships, beyond "I hate you, so i am going to KICK YOUR ASS".
It had more than that, that is until last night.

Taking the belt off punk so he can do all that to which Rovert has covered already makes perfect sense, and i think he will do well in that run.
But, there was 4 other people in that match.

Having batista win to go over with him defending rey and going against kane would have made more logical sense, rather than this.

Raw stands like this:

Great feud with the biggest prize.

Another feud with the tag titles.

And what else?.....

callaway92

Heres my €0.02 on the PPV...Worst one of the year imo..Mainly because the crowd were so dead.
ECW match, I liked the ending and am happy Hardy is Champ
Tag Match, Was ok..Am i the only person that doesnt think DiBiase is good..I think hes quite dodgy in the ring,
Jericho Michaels was a borefest
SD Scramble best match of the night but with a ridiculous ending...Also when Hardy was the champ at the time.Why was he still trying to pin people..
Womens Match ..Dyer...What were the crowd chanting aroung 3/4 of the way through it..And it wasnt "Boring"
Happy Show is heel now,
RAW Scramble..Batista is so boring..And crowd were absolutely shít for this match.
Biggest Pop of the night was when Batista applied Figure Four on JBL I think,

Worst PPV of the year..And also worst PPV of last 2 years..
2/10..Im so bored with it now

Bubs101

Does anybody think that Kendrick finally got over with the fans due to his 5 minutes of dominance or did Hunter destroy all of that

callaway92

Hunter destroyed it all when he entered the ring and destroyed everyone...Kendrick was class in that match,,When he did The Kendrick to MVP was very good

Rjd2

Bubs101 wrote: »

Does anybody think that Kendrick finally got over with the fans due to his 5 minutes of dominance or did Hunter destroy all of that

I think Hunter destroyed him last night, I understand Hunter had to pin someone but christ I was expecting Hunter to make him a look like more of a threat. MVP came out of this nearly as bad as The Kenderick, he also looked like he was merely making up the numbers.

rovert

rovert wrote: »

Surely it is better to marginally affect Punk in order to establish Priceless & Manu and to setup Punk’s first proper program with Orton? While putting the title on Jericho puts more steam on him as Raw's top heel and top feud simultaneously

But it doesn't 'marginally affect' Punk. It makes him look weak. Very weak. He got thrown in the general direction of a table and kicked in the head...

They've been doing an angle with him where the story essentially was "I'm a strong, worthy, great champion. However, i have never had the opportunity to prove it properly because things keep getting out of my control and causing me to look like a 'fluke' champion"

However, last night they pretty much said "Yeah, punk can't compete because he got a kick in the head".


Now, if we were comparing Punk to someone who posts here, say me or you for example. Then chances are we wouldn't get up and wrestle a match after getting a kick in the head. However; Punk is only able to be compared to the other people he interacts with (That is; the superhuman WWE Roster). If chris jericho can be smashed through announce desks, put through tables, and have to lose a match because he got knocked unconscious, and then compete in a match (and win it) later in the night.. it makes Punk look very weak. John Cena got a kick in the face at to finish his match at Mania 24. But he still walked up the ramp. Punk gets kicked and its goodnight for him? It makes him look to be the same kinda guy that orton was describing him as all along.



As CBG said, too, putting the belt on Jericho is.. well.. its like putting the strap on Khali just before he enters a "who's taller?" competition with Big Show. It adds nothing to the scenario at all. Jericho and Shawn are having an emotionally-driven feud. Where both guys just want to kill each other. They'll attack each others family and laugh it off. They just want to end each other's career.. Yet Jericho, who can barely walk, decides that he should enter a match for the world title?



Let me just go into Kayfabe world for a minute...

Chris Jericho has been battered, whipped, put through tables, and literally knocked unconscious. But backstage, whilst in severe pain he has suffered at the hands of his arch-nemesis, barely able to move, Mike Adamle sees him and considers him a 'suitable replacement' for CM Punk (Who has presumably been murdered by orton's boot). So upon being offered a spot in a 5-way match (Jericho doesn't know if he's first or last to enter) with the likes of Kane and Batista, he decides that although he may risk serious injury in the ring with men like those, and losing the match would of huge embarrassment and give HBK something to laugh about, Jericho puts all his personal hatred to one side and goes for the belt...




I mean... Really?



Obviously we're all going to have differing opinions, but I just think its really silly.


Orton being the replacement would have made perfect sense; especially considering Punk acknowledged his arm being out of the cast and all...

Mr.Nice Guy

I actually stayed up to watch Unforgiven last night as the fact it was on Sky Sports proved too tempting, and to quote The Rock I found this PPV a steaming, stinking piece of Grade A monkey crap.

I did quite enjoy the ECW Title opener. It was a good idea to put the belt on Matt I think and I felt the last couple of minutes made for an entertaining bout.

I REALLY enjoyed the tag team match. Maybe it's because I haven't seen a good tag match in so long but I thought this was a very good effort from everybody, especially Rhodes and Dibiase. I liked the finish too.

I haven't been too crazy about the Michaels/Jericho feud but I thought it was a hell of a match. I liked the finish. My only gripe would be King and Cole going on about stuff that didn't need to be mentioned. 'Michaels is so emotional, King'. No sh*t Sherlock.

At this point I was enjoying the PPV and was of the opinion that my earlier fears of a Thumbs Down PPV would be unfounded. Unfortunately this PPV took a sharp nosedive.

The Smackdown match embodies EVERYTHING I despise about SuperHunter. You have a guy like Kendrick who actually appeared to be getting himself over in the match so what happens? At the finish SuperHunter (and Jeff Hardy) treat him like an absolute sap thus making the earlier impressive stuff from Kendrick completely pointless. So, so stupid. I have no problem with SuperHunter retaining, but could someone kindly explain to me how the F*CK this guy is now a 13 time WWE champion according to JR? This doesn't seem to make sense to me. Is Kendrick a former WWE champion then? If not, then how the hell could SuperHunter have notched up another title reign in the scramble?

I know the man is obsessed at winning as many titles as possible but this is getting f*cking ridiculous.

Now at this point I'm thinking to myself, hopefully WWE can salvage things. My heart sank as I saw the next match - Michelle vs Maryse. I suppose it serves me right for not using this as a toilet break but this was really awful. These two just went through the motions and no one gave a sh*t.

By this stage I'm wondering if Unforgiven can be saved from being a Thumbs Down PPV. So we have a segment with Big Show and Vickie. Then Taker appears. This seemed to take an AGE but I was patient with it and then....Show attacks Taker. Are you kidding me? Surely we don't need to see ANOTHER Taker/Show feud in this day and age? What was worse was that the beatdown by Show seemed to last twice as long as Taker's entrance. I was nearly asleep by now.

So at this stage I've given up all hope of this being a Thumbs Up PPV but I was hopeful it could at least be a Thumbs in the Middle one through a strong main event. However I have to say WWE plummed new depths of stupidity with the World Title FIASCO.

So the storyline with Punk the past few months has been about him defying the odds, proving he's a worthy champion etc. However it turns out that you just need to punt the guy in the head and that will take care of everything! What a load of arse this was. This was such a sh*tty way of taking the belt off him unless he's injured or something. I mean I doubt he's failed the wellness policy. Seriously I cannot fathom what the hell they were thinking here.

Jericho winning the belt is the wrong decision too in my opinion. It seems to me they were going for the shock aspect but the whole thing was just terrible booking I felt.

Anyway, I thought if a champion is unable to defend his title then the match doesn't take place? Wasn't this what Edge and Christian did a few years ago when they had a doctor's note saying they couldn't defend their titles due to a cold? And surely if Punk was to be 'replaced' then that would mean the guy replacing him is fighting for Punk right? Wasn't this what Orlando Jordan did one time for JBL? He represented him in a title defence?

Maybe I'm expecting too much to ask the WWE to apply consistency and sensiiblity to their storylines.

In summary, if you've planning on watching the repeat show, I'd advise you to just turn it off after the Michaels match and save your sanity.

THUMBS DOWN!

CMpunked

In short, this post ^^^^* right here, should be in the PWIs best post of the year award!

It was more gripping than the SD! championship scrabble anyway.

*KKVs post

Headshot

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I actually stayed up to watch Unforgiven last night as the fact it was on Sky Sports proved too tempting, and to quote The Rock I found this PPV a steaming, stinking piece of Grade A monkey crap.

actually stayed up bad luck

it was a real bad ppv

it was even worse than what TNA come out with and thats fair bad

I cant stand hunter and what they did to Kendrick was a disgrace
whats the point having him in that event ffs

and im delighted Y2j is champ but Ortan should have came out

doesnt really make sence but neither did punk as champ

it seems world title means nothing these days

rovert

KKV & Mr Nice Guy Im too shattered to reply point by point but doing what they did will make Jericho more hated and Punk more liked in my opinion no matter how they got there. We will see who is more correct in our assessments on Raw tonight, unless the crowd sits on their hands like they did at the PPV. :pac:

callaway92

rovert wrote: »

KKV & Mr Nice Guy Im too shattered to reply point by point but doing what they did will make Jericho more hated and Punk more liked in my opinion no matter how they got there. We will see who is more correct in our assessments on Raw tonight, unless the crowd sits on their hands like they did at the PPV. :pac:

I couldnt specify how bad the were in the post I made..One of the worst ppv crowds ever

rovert

rovert wrote: »

KKV & Mr Nice Guy Im too shattered to reply point by point

Its OK. You really don't have to anyway.

unless the crowd sits on their hands like they did at the PPV. :pac:

In fairness, they were into Matt getting the belt

CMpunked

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness, they were into Matt getting the belt

I think everyone marked out when they seen that

Fozzy

rovert wrote: »

KKV & Mr Nice Guy Im too shattered to reply point by point but doing what they did will make Jericho more hated and Punk more liked in my opinion no matter how they got there.

That's just what I thought. It made sense to me

Overall it was basically par for the course for a WWE PPV

chopperbyrne

Sets up two feuds for Punk while keeping him in the main event scene and not making him look weak as he never actually lost his title.

Didn't think they'd give Jericho the strap, but he is very over at the moment so it makes sense.

Seems like we could end up with a few factions soon too.

Jerichos little cult, hopefully London will join and Revolution with Orton, Rhodes and DiBiase.

rovert

chopperbyrne wrote: »

London will join and Revolution with Orton, Rhodes and DiBiase.

Paul will need to be adopted by IRS first or something.

chopperbyrne

rovert wrote: »

Paul will need to be adopted by IRS first or something.

I meant London join with Jericho and Cade.

Although Money Inc. for one night only would be awesome!

chopperbyrne

chopperbyrne wrote: »

I meant London join with Jericho and Cade.

Although Money Inc. for one night only would be awesome!

IRS/DiBiase were at the RAW XV show i do believe.

rovert

rovert wrote: »

KKV & Mr Nice Guy Im too shattered to reply point by point but doing what they did will make Jericho more hated and Punk more liked in my opinion no matter how they got there. We will see who is more correct in our assessments on Raw tonight, unless the crowd sits on their hands like they did at the PPV. :pac:

RAW Spoiler:

the crowd hated Jericho more than ever, so it worked.

gimmick

I'll expand on this later, but the way the title has changed the last 2 times devalues it something rotten.

After the battering Jericho took from HBK, how was he in a betetr position than Punk to fight? No sense whatsoever.

Also, perhaps using the UFC option of having an "interim" champ when the actual champion is not in a position to defend it or soemthing, like Couture and Nog at present???

rovert

gimmick wrote: »

After the battering Jericho took from HBK, how was he in a betetr position than Punk to fight? No sense whatsoever.

CM Punk suffered a concussion did Y2J did not.

mehfesto2

callaway92 wrote: »

I couldnt specify how bad the were in the post I made..One of the worst ppv crowds ever

Wasn't there something like only 6,000 fans who paid? The rest were all given freebies? Think I read that somewhere here, anyway.

rovert

mehfesto2 wrote: »

Wasn't there something like only 6,000 fans who paid? The rest were all given freebies? Think I read that somewhere here, anyway.

Pretty much

The latest F4W newsletter said there was a lot of kids at the show hence the lack of crowd reaction for the heavyness of the HBK & Y2J match.

rossie1977

callaway92 wrote: »

Worst PPV of the year..And also worst PPV of last 2 years..
2/10..Im so bored with it now

december to dismember was in december 2006 so unforgiven 2008 was not even close to being the worst ppv of the last two years

if it wasn't for the kids the wwe crowds these days would be as lively as a funeral home (at least they try unlike the adults) in 1998 i couldn't hear myself think at live shows when austin came through the curtain (tv did his reaction at the time no justice)

rovert

2/10??? GTFO

callaway92

rovert wrote: »

2/10??? GTFO

Thats just in my own opinion..Never so bored with a PPV before...What'd you give it??

rovert

callaway92 wrote: »

Thats just in my own opinion..Never so bored with a PPV before...What'd you give it??

6/10 going by what you can expect out of a PPV. There is no way you could give a PPV 2/10 when it has a match as good HBK/Y2J was and some solid wrestling as well. Your score seems to do more with your own mood than the merits of the actual show itself.

Mr.Nice Guy

rovert wrote: »

RAW Spoiler:

the crowd hated Jericho more than ever, so it worked.

I disagree. It's cheap heat. If they'd put the belt on Regal he would have been hated more than ever too.

Plus presumably Jericho will beat Punk in the cage which will make Punk come across weak.

I think there was a better way of dealing with these two guys and that Jericho didn't require the belt at this point.

rovert

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It's cheap heat.

You know what this term actually means, right?

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Plus presumably Jericho will beat Punk in the cage which will make Punk come across weak.

No it doesn’t, losing doesn’t make necessarily make someone weak you are ignoring context.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think there was a better way of dealing with these two guys and that Jericho didn't require the belt at this point.

He is their hottest heel at the moment so after booking a weak babyface reign you someone like him to hold the title.

mehfesto2

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Plus presumably Jericho will beat Punk in the cage which will make Punk come across weak.

The match is only there becuase he has a rematch clause.

I reckon it'll be used to probably build up the Punk-Orton feud - e.g. Orton with $.P. turn up and screw Punk out of it. He still wouldn't have lost it fairly and he has even more reason to want revenge against Orton.

The fact Jericho didn't win it clean will give him even more heat. Just my thoughts, anyway.

rovert

rovert wrote: »

You know what this term actually means, right?

"Cheap" heat probably wasn't the best term to use, but I can fully see MNG's point.

No it doesn’t, losing doesn’t make necessarily make someone weak you are ignoring context.

It does make Punk look weak. Jericho shouldn't have the belt in the first place. If Punk gets knocked unconscious by a boot, and cant win a match after even getting a week off to recover from said boot (a cage match, nonetheless) it makes him look very weak. And it doesn't say much for the other wrestlers that couldn't seem to beat him either.

He is their hottest heel at the moment

Which is exactly why he deosn't need the belt.

after booking a weak babyface reign you someone like him to hold the title.

Why? to show that an injured, previously unconscious man that whines about being hurt is somehow better than the rest of RAW's main eventers?

Fozzy

Deleted User wrote: »

It does make Punk look weak. Jericho shouldn't have the belt in the first place. If Punk gets knocked unconscious by a boot, and cant win a match after even getting a week off to recover from said boot (a cage match, nonetheless) it makes him look very weak. And it doesn't say much for the other wrestlers that couldn't seem to beat him either.

Punk is weak though. Hasn't he been beaten twice by Jericho recently? I've asked this question before about Punk, but what has changed to where losing to Jericho now suddenly makes him look weak?

I'm sure it won't be a clean loss anyway, so he won't be looking as weak as he had been during his title run

rovert

Deleted User wrote: »

"Cheap" heat probably wasn't the best term to use, but I can fully see MNG's point..

Which is a rather empty one:

If they'd put the belt on Regal he would have been hated more than ever too.

That is because fans don’t like heels holding titles. As they are heels!

Deleted User wrote: »

Jericho shouldn't have the belt in the first place.

That is what WWE wants people to think KKV, he is an opportunistic heel.

Deleted User wrote: »

If Punk gets knocked unconscious by a boot, and cant win a match after even getting a week off to recover from said boot (a cage match, nonetheless) it makes him look very weak. And it doesn't say much for the other wrestlers that couldn't seem to beat him either.

Substitute the word sympathetic for the word weak and you've almost got it. The reason Punk will be because of an injury and/or the outside interference from Orton & Co. Which are both underhanded ways to beat someone.

Deleted User wrote: »

"Which is exactly why he deosn't need the belt.

He has gotten a better reaction with it than he has without it. Jericho doesn’t NEED it but does add a lot to his act. If HBK needs time off or if WWE is going to hold off the next HBK/Y2J. Put the title on Jericho ensures he will remain as hated as he is (if not more so) when the rematch happens while not sidetracking Jericho and detracting from the HBK/Y2J feud.

Deleted User wrote: »

"Why? to show that an injured, previously unconscious man that whines about being hurt is somehow better than the rest of RAW's main eventers?

Nope, it is done to create a dislikeable heel that everyone is gunning for, reinvigorating the title scene and the title itself.

Fozzy wrote: »

Punk is weak though. Hasn't he been beaten twice by Jericho recently? I've asked this question before about Punk, but what has changed to where losing to Jericho now suddenly makes him look weak?

I'm sure it won't be a clean loss anyway, so he won't be looking as weak as he had been during his title run

People seem to think Punk is Austin and Hogan combined here.

Mr.Nice Guy

Deleted User wrote:

That is because fans don’t like heels holding titles. As they are heels!

Yes and when Khali got the belt the fans didn't like it either. That doesn't make giving him the title a sensible idea. I'm sure if TNA put their title belt on Jeff Jarrett the fans wouldn't like it. A heel that will benefit from the title would be preferable to one that has been used for shock purposes. I don't believe Jericho needed it at this point. I would argue Punk certainly required it more than Jericho at this point in time.

rovert wrote: »

Which is a rather empty one:

Cheers. And to think people complain about your attitude, rovert! :rolleyes:

Now back on ignore you go.

Fozzy wrote:

Punk is weak though. Hasn't he been beaten twice by Jericho recently? I've asked this question before about Punk, but what has changed to where losing to Jericho now suddenly makes him look weak?

I'm sure it won't be a clean loss anyway, so he won't be looking as weak as he had been during his title run

Losing the title in the manner in which he did made him look puny to my mind. Not even Rey, as bad as his title reign was booked, suffered the indignity of losing his title due to a backstage assault.

Assuming he jobs out to Jericho doesn't that mean his title reign was an abject failure? I think that's a pity because I felt it could have been salvaged.

rovert

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Yes and when Khali got the belt the fans didn't like it either. That doesn't make giving him the title a sensible idea. I'm sure if TNA put their title belt on Jeff Jarrett the fans wouldn't like it. A heel that will benefit from the title would be preferable to one that has been used for shock purposes. I don't believe Jericho needed it at this point. I would argue Punk certainly required it more than Jericho at this point in time.

Have you not read my post? I listed numrous reasons why it benifits Punk. Yet ignored them completely, yet I have the attitude? There is no way you can compare Jericho's winning of the title to Khali and Jarrett.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Cheers. And to think people complain about your attitude, rovert! :rolleyes:

Now back on ignore you go..

What attitude? I gave a very good reason why it was an empty reason to dislike a title change.

rovert wrote: »

That is because fans don’t like heels holding titles. As they are heels!

Not to mention you used a term you seem to have little understanding of and you used it totally incorrectly to describe Jericho's title win.

rovert

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I disagree. It's cheap heat. If they'd put the belt on Regal he would have been hated more than ever too.

Your point implies Regal is a better heel than Jericho, which isnt the case either.

mehfesto2

rovert wrote: »

There is no way you can compare Jericho's winning of the title to Khali and Jarrett.

Yeah, I agree. The reasons to me as to why they did it are unclear, but I'm sure there's more to it than meets the eye. Can't say I can figure it out yet, because there's no way Punks getting it back wih Orton now in the frame, but I can't see it staying in the Jericho/HBK feud, personally.

Punk is a good wrestler, but he's no champ in my eyes. Not yet anyway. I think it was more a case of take it off Punk rather than give it to Jericho.

rovert

I swear I didnt read this before posting post #186 but here is what Bryan Alverez said about Jericho's title win:

Jericho was a good choice in that he's the hottest heel in the company right now and has done some of the best work of his career in the feud with Michaels. Shawn, working with a slightly torn triceps that was originally feared to be much worse, will likely be spending a few weeks recovering so WWE can wrap up the Jericho/Punk storyline, likely with Orton costing Punk a title match, before moving onto the next chapter of HBK vs. Y2J, that being the battle for the belt. This is the best feud the company has, and after Shawn's dominating win at Unforgiven they needed something to keep the momentum going.

rovert

mehfesto2 wrote: »

Yeah, I agree. The reasons to me as to why they did it are unclear, but I'm sure there's more to it than meets the eye..

It better be a bloody good reason as Jericho is in a two horse race with Edge as Heel of the Year. I don’t think Khali or Jarrett have been in contention for that.

mehfesto2 wrote: »

Can't say I can figure it out yet, because there's no way Punks getting it back with Orton now in the frame, but I can't see it staying in the Jericho/HBK feud, personally

I’m not sure either, be see my previous post though.

mehfesto2 wrote: »

Punk is a good wrestler, but he's no champ in my eyes. Not yet anyway. I think it was more a case of take it off Punk rather than give it to Jericho.

I disagree but we will find out later in the week. Last week it was reported the company was 50/50 on whether Punk would lose. The match seemed initially to be made so to they could tell the story of Punk defying the odds.

Fozzy

Punk is not going to be in the sort of role that Jericho, Shawn, Cena or Batista are in. He might get the same spot on the card but he's not going to booked in the same way as them (barring a sudden change in the WWE mindset that's been there since Vince has been in charge). I have no idea where all this stuff is coming from about WWE making Punk look bad by having him lose the title that way and about Jericho not needing the title. What they've done makes complete sense to me

I guarantee that the pop that Punk got on last week's Raw will be much worse than the pop he gets just before/after the next PPV (unless WWE take it all in a strange direction, which I can't see happening). This is going to help Punk. He's not one of the most popular guys on Raw at the moment

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

Punk is not going to be in the sort of role that Jericho, Shawn, Cena or Batista are in. He might get the same spot on the card but he's not going to booked in the same way as them (barring a sudden change in the WWE mindset that's been there since Vince has been in charge). I have no idea where all this stuff is coming from about WWE making Punk look bad by having him lose the title that way and about Jericho not needing the title. What they've done makes complete sense to me

I guarantee that the pop that Punk got on last week's Raw will be much worse than the pop he gets just before/after the next PPV (unless WWE take it all in a strange direction, which I can't see happening). This is going to help Punk. He's not one of the most popular guys on Raw at the moment

A main reason why they gave Punk the title is to tell the story of him losing. I'll draw the parallel of Mick Foley's first title win on Raw in January 1999 and then being screwed out of the title in the I Quit match with Rock. Watch Beyond The Mat and see Vince McMahon tell Mick Foley "it is a great story" which when done right it is.

Mr.Nice Guy

Fozzy wrote: »

Punk is not going to be in the sort of role that Jericho, Shawn, Cena or Batista are in. He might get the same spot on the card but he's not going to booked in the same way as them (barring a sudden change in the WWE mindset that's been there since Vince has been in charge). I have no idea where all this stuff is coming from about WWE making Punk look bad by having him lose the title that way and about Jericho not needing the title. What they've done makes complete sense to me

The whole point of Punk's storyline was about him defying the odds, proving he's championship material, not a fluke etc. A similar thing was done with Benoit when he became champ. 'Chris Benoit is for real'.

Where is the sense in completely derailing from this path, plus effectively making it a complete waste of time, by having Punk beaten up backstage and resulting in him losing his title?

The way I look at it, the Unforgiven incident almost backs up JBL's claims that the guy was an undeserving champion because I think it made him look so very weak.

Fozzy wrote:

I guarantee that the pop that Punk got on last week's Raw will be much worse than the pop he gets just before/after the next PPV (unless WWE take it all in a strange direction, which I can't see happening). This is going to help Punk. He's not one of the most popular guys on Raw at the moment

I think his popularity levels were solid. Not at Batista/Cena/Michaels levels but he needed time given the manner of his victory. I think they have totally ruined his momentum and I'm willing to bet that by November, December this will have proven to have been a really bad move for CM Punk and a largely pointless move for Jericho.

I will eat humble pie if I am wrong.

rovert

Man this topic is going to be so stupid if Mr.Nice Guy has me on ignore, seriously. Ive already answered his questions before he has posted them.

Fozzy

rovert wrote: »

Man this topic is going to be so stupid if Mr.Nice Guy has me on ignore, seriously. Ive already answered his questions before he has posted them.

He'll know now :pac:

I'll just give rovert a +1 with what he said. I just can't see how this can possibly be a bad move for Punk or Jericho. Maybe things will be worse for them come the end of the year, but I'm certain that it won't be because of what's already happened

rovert

Fozzy wrote: »

He'll know now :pac:

I'll just give rovert a +1 with what he said. I just can't see how this can possibly be a bad move for Punk or Jericho. Maybe things will be worse for them come the end of the year, but I'm certain that it won't be because of what's already happened

Be impartial for Christsakes Fozzy

Fozzy

Am i sensing paypal payments going from Rovert to Fozzy here? :P


Anyway, back to being a prick;

Fozzy wrote:

Punk is weak though.

He's not supposed to be though. He's supposed to be a worthy champion who has yet to 'prove himself' as being so, because things keep going wrong around him causing him to not be able to win fairly. If he loses to Jericho in a cage with no interference he'll be a permanent joke. He absolutely MUST win the title back in that cage match in a fair match. Jericho can be an egotistical ass and complain that he lost it because he was injured, but Punk doesn't have that to fall back on. Every wrestler on the roster referred to punk as a 'fluke' champion and he will be proving them right should he not be able to beat jericho (unless Orton, Rhodes, Di'Biase, Manu, Kofi and Shawn all decide that they should be involved, which will make it a sloppy mess.

Rovert wrote:

That is what WWE wants people to think KKV, he is an opportunistic heel.

Not just any opportunistic heel. No, no. Apparently, when he takes off his tights and replaces them with trunks he becomes an invincible opportunistic heel. He must have had the same thing for lunch that Triple H had that day. :rolleyes:

rovert wrote:

He has gotten a better reaction with it than he has without it. Jericho doesn’t NEED it but does add a lot to his act. If HBK needs time off or if WWE is going to hold off the next HBK/Y2J. Put the title on Jericho ensures he will remain as hated as he is (if not more so) when the rematch happens while not sidetracking Jericho and detracting from the HBK/Y2J feud.

IF Shawn is taking time off (even though he was happy as larry at unforgiven; therefore giving him no reason to disappear) then i can mildly understand giving Jericho the belt. But it doesn't add anything to him if he's still feuding with shawn (and right now, im assuming that he is). I like when they criss-cross feuds and i think it can be done very well at times. But this is just crappy. And you have to understand rovert, I'm not an 8 year old. I don't dislike Jericho having the belt because he is a heel. I dislike Jericho having the belt because i feel it could be much more usefule and effective around anyone else's waist.

rovert wrote:

People seem to think Punk is Austin and Hogan combined here.

No. No one thinks that. People think that CM Punk is CM Punk. The worthy world champion that got lucky. But due to the way he won the belt has yet to become a credible champion due to things not working the way he wants them to. Other things are always costing him to win in unfair ways (kane interrupting for example) and he has yet to prove himself. He got knocked unconscious by a kick in the head and wasnt even able to make it to the show the following day? It makes him look about as tough as Jim Ross.

rovert wrote:

There is no way you can compare Jericho's winning of the title to Khali

Its easy. Both are done out of shock value. RAW has been based on these shock moments for a while. Vince gets crushed, adamle's the GM, Cena gets drove over, jericho wins the belt. As i said, people arent likely to dislike Y2J bein gchamp cos hes a heel, is because they are sensible enough to know its wasting the belt.

rovert wrote:

here is what Bryan Alverez said about Jericho's title win

Who?

Fozzy wrote:

I have no idea where all this stuff is coming from about WWE making Punk look bad by having him lose the title that way and about Jericho not needing the title.

Im not saying they're trying to make him look bad, like hes damien demento or anything. They're making him look very, very weak. Essentially what they did was do some crap angle and expect that no one would even think about it. Kids wont question it. Older people will fart on it.

Also, what use is the belt on Jericho?





I think WWE are are trying to build for

Manu, DiBiase, Orton, Rhodes and Jericho
VS
Punk, Shawn, Kofi and Crymet Tyme

at Survivor series and therefore decided to un-intentionally kill CM Punk's credibility. And yes, punk will get a big reaction next week (i imagine) because he doe slook sympathetic.


But, if the Rock comes through the curtain next week the roof will come off the building. However, after a little while he'll be boo'ed out of the building. People will give punk a decent reaction just because he's back. in the long run i feel WWE have done him more harm than good.

rovert

Deleted User wrote: »

He's not supposed to be though. He's supposed to be a worthy champion who has yet to 'prove himself' as being so, because things keep going wrong around him causing him to not be able to win fairly. If he loses to Jericho in a cage with no interference he'll be a permanent joke. He absolutely MUST win the title back in that cage match in a fair match. Jericho can be an egotistical ass and complain that he lost it because he was injured, but Punk doesn't have that to fall back on. Every wrestler on the roster referred to punk as a 'fluke' champion and he will be proving them right should he not be able to beat jericho (unless Orton, Rhodes, Di'Biase, Manu, Kofi and Shawn all decide that they should be involved, which will make it a sloppy mess.

I totally disagree with were you are coming from here. My views are pretty well established in previous threads so I don’t feel I need to rehash them . Punk was never supposed to be a worthy Champion in this reign; he was only trying to be. With all due respect you seem to have little understanding how to book a babyface like Punk in the long run.

Deleted User wrote: »

Not just any opportunistic heel. No, no. Apparently, when he takes off his tights and replaces them with trunks he becomes an invincible opportunistic heel. He must have had the same thing for lunch that Triple H had that day. :rolleyes:

You know what the word invincible means right?. He was hardly HHH here, he didn’t run to the ring and pedigree everything in sight. He took an age hobbling to the ring due to him selling his injures and them sneaked out the win.

Deleted User wrote: »

IF Shawn is taking time off (even though he was happy as larry at unforgiven; therefore giving him no reason to disappear) then i can mildly understand giving Jericho the belt. But it doesn't add anything to him if he's still feuding with shawn (and right now, im assuming that he is). I like when they criss-cross feuds and i think it can be done very well at times. But this is just crappy. And you have to understand rovert, I'm not an 8 year old.

Your inability to fully take in other people's points may lead to someone saying otherwise at times. Y2J said his loss to HBK doesn’t matter as it was an unsanctioned match. This will raise the ire of the HBK and the fans, simple as.

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't dislike Jericho having the belt because he is a heel. I dislike Jericho having the belt because i feel it could be much more useful and effective around anyone else's waist.:

For example and don’t say Kane? I’ve outlined a number of reasonable reasons in previous posts why it is useful to have the title on Jericho. Address these first and contrast them with your pick of who should be champion. So we can see which is more effective.

Deleted User wrote: »

No. No one thinks that. People think that CM Punk is CM Punk. The worthy world champion that got lucky. But due to the way he won the belt has yet to become a credible champion due to things not working the way he wants them to. Other things are always costing him to win in unfair ways (kane interrupting for example) and he has yet to prove himself.

See my point about Mick Foley’s first title reign.

Deleted User wrote: »

He got knocked unconscious by a kick in the head and wasnt even able to make it to the show the following day?

You do know how serious a concussion is right? Trauma to the brain is far more debilitating than a few welts and bruises.

Deleted User wrote: »

It makes him look about as tough as Jim Ross..:

Things like this and the HHH reference makes your points more and more irrational as a consequence.

Deleted User wrote: »

Its easy. Both are done out of shock value. RAW has been based on these shock moments for a while. Vince gets crushed, adamle's the GM, Cena gets drove over, jericho wins the belt. As i said, people arent likely to dislike Y2J bein gchamp cos hes a heel, is because they are sensible enough to know its wasting the belt.

Again I’ve given a numerous reasons why it isn’t just done for shock. Rather this is a pretty great booking decision which accomplishes a number of things and sets up a lot down the road. This move isn’t short sighted at all unlike the shock tactics you referred to.

rovert

Deleted User wrote: »

Who?.

Arguably the 2nd best Pro Wrestling writer behind Dave Meltzer.

Deleted User wrote: »

I think WWE are are trying to build for

Manu, DiBiase, Orton, Rhodes and Jericho
VS
Punk, Shawn, Kofi and Crymet Tyme

at Survivor series and therefore decided to un-intentionally kill CM Punk's credibility.

Sorry, what? So a grudge feud with Orton = career death? WTF

Deleted User wrote: »

But, if the Rock comes through the curtain next week the roof will come off the building. However, after a little while he'll be boo'ed out of the building. People will give punk a decent reaction just because he's back. in the long run i feel WWE have done him more harm than good.

CM Punk hasnt been gone for six years on a entirely different reason, KKV.
Again see my point about Mick Foley's first title reign.