Opening up a cafe... advice needed!

Sambo-Woman

Hello All,
I am researching my idea to open a small cafe; breakfast & lunch. I am finding it very difficult to find any advice online or first hand experiences etc. Usually there is a forum for everything, but can't find any on this kind of thing, was hoping to talk to people who have done it and who can offer advice.
Does anyone know where I should start in researching this!?
Much appreciated,
Sambo:cool:

Bandara

think very carefully before doing this, a lot of cafes struggle badly and the return even on a decent one is not much considering the hassle involved in them.

Take a look at the HUGE amount of the them coming onto the market all the time for little or no money, I was sent the brochures for 3 in the past week alone, one in the middle of temple bar that has been hawked about the place for the past 9 months and has dropped its asking price from 350k to 210k. Pretty much the same story for them all.

Have a look on Owens Commerical, they have mountains of cafes, take aways, and small all day restaurants, if your not very experienced in running a cafe I would steer well clear, it isn't anything like as easy as it looks.

Sorry to be so negative but I'm seeing so many people lose their shirts opening somewhere and thinking its just a case of being nice to the customers and selling tasty sandwiches.

stepbar

I hate to point out the obvious but it's all about location, location, location. No point opening a cafe if you don't have a steady passing trade. At the end of the day it's bums on seats that pays the rent.

From a banking point of view, you will probably need quite a sizeable amount of money to get started. No bank in their right mind (especially in the current environment) will give you any significant amount of money unless you have A. Input yourself and B. Security to offer (aside from your family home).

I do know the BOI do consider unsecured business loans of less than 25k but I guess that you will need a hell of a lot more than that, probably anywhere between 200k - 300k to get the show on the road. I don't think many of the banks will be too keen to take on a lease as security so that rules that one out.

Putting down key money on a leased premises does not come cheap. Fitting out same with equipment doesn't come cheap either. Finding reliable staff and being able to train same would probably test the best of patience. I could go on.....

Be prepared for disappointment because I can't see this one getting off the ground.

Swampy

I had a look at one recently. I had a PL a/c and Balance sheet of a successful cafe and used it as a guide for setting up one myself.

It was madness. For a good location, you are going to have to pay big key money approx 200k and then the rent on top of that. It is a huge outlay before you even get into the running costs.

If you own the property or can just pay rent without buying a lease you might be able to do it, but when I looked at the figures it really did not work out.

Fido loves 7up

I find the replies in this thread a bit typical of the Irish attitude towards business - i.e.: put someone off an idea before they have a chance to give it a go for themselves or even get past the "vision" part.

There are a few cafes Im looking at at the moment that are in prime locations and well priced. I'll be checking the accounts carefully and making sure there's a healthy profit before I do anything. Yes Im aware there are dozens of them for sale in Dublin right now, and yes Im aware of how competitive the market is but if you get the location right then thats half the battle.

Some more positivity around these parts please.

SamboWoman - As soon as I rediscover it I'll PM you a very useful cafe thread on a forum that specializes in money matters

Don't let the negative replies get you down. It's all about what you do in the face of adversity!

I don't see what the problem is. If i found a good location, and market research was favorable, a proper business plan is done and shows that money can be made, I'd go along with it if it was feasible to do.

For a café, I would say you need a superb location, high street/central and you need to promote it so it's clear why you are different to the average run of the mill coffee shops who barely make ends meet. Being in the right location is half the battle, having a nichey USP is also what will seperate you from the rest.

I'll own a coffee shop in my lifetime.

Bandara

The reason people are so 'negative' about ideas like this is pretty much because they know exactly what is involved in these business and know that it is a bad idea to start one in the current climate for a multitude of reasons.

An extremely well run cafe in an excellent location is a complete fairytale in terms of the money you make for it and its longevity.

If you manage to be one of the few who succeed over a period of 5 + years you are still only making between 80k-100k a year, and that is the top level of the non-franchise operators, and even then your entire circumstances can change completely at the drop of a hat, its a savage market. There is just no money in these things to make then worth the shot.

Without any expertise, without the money to be able to afford the prime sites (not to mention the keymoney and the fact the bank won't touch you) the risk reward ratio is so absurdly small you need your head examined.

People have a romantic notion of running a lovely little place, happy customers, being their own boss, enjoying their work etc etc, thats a pipe dream, your doing huge hours and pressure for a return that isn't worth it.

You can say this is an negative Irish response, but I know this area of business and I know that its not a runner at present, even for the very experienced, there are far better business opportunities out there.

Starbucks are sinking like a stone, Insomnia are dropping the price of their coffee by 90c, Cafe Sol are selling their coffee for €2.75 now, any independent units are under huge pressure just to survive and the average turnover of that nice little coffee shop that you stop in every morning on your way to work would SHOCK you (think of a number and divide it by three and you won't be too far off)

lanod2407

"Carbonated sugared-water loving Fido" - I'm not sure it's a case of knocking an idea for the sake of it. It just might be a difficult time to get into that market - it's already a busy place to start competing, and if I've got to tighten the financial belt one of the first things to go will be the latte's and deep filled sandwiches! I'm no George Lee - i.e. I'm not talking us into a recession (bugger, I used that word again!) but we're going into a period where there will definitely be some double-takes when it comes to casual spending.

Having said that - I found a really brilliant little place in Limerick recently that had just opened - and it's definitely on the list of places to go back to - quality operations can succeed at any time.

lanod2407

lanod2407 wrote: »

quality operations can succeed at any time.

Absolutely.

Bandara

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely.

Of course they can, and they are always run by experienced quality people who put large amounts of money into them to ensure they are top notch. Which, with respect to the OP, is not what she is talkign about here.

I operate a two top level restaurants in Dublin, the amount of money we had to spend to put them into the top niche would frighten you.

We lost a very large amount of money in year one in the more successful establishment, without a lot of cash to fall back on we would have gone out of business and not developed into the highly profitable place it is today.

Hammertime

Hammertime wrote: »

Of course they can, and they are always run by experienced quality people who put large amounts of money into them to ensure they are top notch. Which, with respect to the OP, is not what she is talkign about here.

I operate a two top level restaurants in Dublin, the amount of money we had to spend to put them into the top niche would frighten you.

We lost a very large amount of money in year one in the more successful establishment.

I'd expect a high figure, maybe not quite as high as that to be honest with you, but then again you did say top level restaurants i.e. Michelin star quality or that sort of category.

The OP intends on opening a small café that does breakfasts and lunch. When I think of a small café that does breakfasts and lunch, I think of News Café in Blackrock. Anyone who knows about this café will know what I am talking about.

Mr.Boots

Hammertime wrote: »

Of course they can, and they are always run by experienced quality people who put large amounts of money into them to ensure they are top notch. Which, with respect to the OP, is not what she is talkign about here.

I operate a two top level restaurants in Dublin, the amount of money we had to spend to put them into the top niche would frighten you.

We lost a very large amount of money in year one in the more successful establishment, without a lot of cash to fall back on we would have gone out of business and not developed into the highly profitable place it is today.

I hate this attitude!!
You dont need vast amounts of money to make this work, i guess it makes it easier if you have, but its not realy needed.
What you need is an understanding of the industry and a passion to offer the best you can both in service and product.
Find a small premises, and after a couple of years when you have a loyal following, then you can expand.
You might never be rich....but so what.

Bandara

Mr.Boots wrote: »

I hate this attitude!!
You dont need vast amounts of money to make this work, i guess it makes it easier if you have, but its not realy needed.
What you need is an understanding of the industry and a passion to offer the best you can both in service and product.
Find a small premises, and after a couple of years when you have a loyal following, then you can expand.
You might never be rich....but so what.

What attitude?

I'm sorry but I'm not going to dress up an answer for someone, the op asked a question and as someone who has had both success and spectacular failure in the food industry I will answer them directly.

Without experience and money you are dead in this business, opening up a little place and working damn hard at it to acheive success is a thing of the past, you need to be top class - look at Andersons Foodhall in Glasnevin huge running costs but a fantastic setup.. And by success I mean staying in business for 5 years.

Its a fools paradise to work for 80+ hours a week for 80k a year.

Sorry but thats just my opinion on it.

Fido loves 7up

Hammertime wrote: »

there are far better business opportunities out there.

Care to share them?

What sector would you put 100k into then?

Bandara

Fido loves 7up wrote: »

Care to share them?

What sector would you put 100k into then?

I'd love to but I don't like 7Up, Sprite is far nicer.

Anyway, seeing as the OP has not logged onto the site since their one and only post I'd suggest we are wasting our time here

I hope the OP comes back and gets a bit of inspiration from the following links, it can be done:

http://www.indublin.ie/Venues/Restaurants/The_News_Cafe.aspx

http://www.menupages.ie/Dublin/Restaurants/Blackrock/The_News_Cafe.aspx

leiwand

i opened a sandwich bar here in vienna last november .

it would be positioned similar level to pret a manger in uk.

premium coffees, triangle sandwiches with funky fillings, hot savoury tortilla wraps, soups, gourmet ciabatta sandwiches.
used a funky dutch design team for corporate identity
did loads of research london,dublin .
wife is a talented experienced chef,didn't copy anywhere but came up with recipes herself.myself 11 years hospitality experience management/ ownership.

ashamedly only did a half effort of a business plan. very sketchy financials( i have a business degree!)
opened up and attracted very loyal foodie customers.rave reviews from tullio and doorley equivalents in austria.in a area that has mainly good footfall from university students and okay amount of offices locally.
we thought students would provide us with majority of custom but our market turned out to be office workers or joe soap with a passion for food.
made loads of mistakes ,learnt sh/tloads.lost a grand a week and closed a week ago.
i absolutely love the hospitality industry and am seriously passionate about what i do. will try and raise money to put another sandwich bar in a better location. am writng the business plan i should have written beforehand.(with serious emphasis on financials) no intention of giving up. have invested approx 190 grand so far.am always willing to share advice/experience
i

Fido loves 7up

Hammertime wrote: »

I'd love to but I don't like 7Up

:rolleyes:

I thought as much.

I think you're full of it tbh.

Contemplating

As soon as I rediscover it I'll PM you a very useful cafe thread on a forum that specializes in money matters[/quote]

New to this but just wondering do you ever find that cafe thread on money matters ? I am exploring setting up a fast food/cafe business.

Thanks

YellowSheep

Hi Sambo
If the above advise did not encourage you to run, and you still want to go ahead please PM me. I have over 20 restaurant & cafe openings under my belt and would know most problems faced.
Regards Oliver

DubTony

YellowSheep wrote: »

Hi Sambo
If the above advise did not encourage you to run, and you still want to go ahead please PM me. I have over 20 restaurant & cafe openings under my belt and would know most problems faced.
Regards Oliver

Oliver, I'm curious. What business are you in? (if you don't mind me asking)