Phil Ivey Messing

Chucky the tree

Tackle69 wrote: »

Its not scared money... its just the smart play... i can't believe that so called respected players on here advocate a call with a marginal hand such as a8 or even a useless hand like q8... With 200 or 300 bbs in the first few levels, hour long clock etc, i think i know what i'd do with my money regardless of whether is €20 or €10000. No way am i taking a flip.

this has to be a level.

LuckyLloyd

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DeadParrot

CourierCollie wrote: »

Just found out Q3 is called the 'Gay Waiter' ;

'Queen with a tray'

San Francisco Busboy

phantom_lord

goodluck2me wrote: »

Lloid insta calls with Q8clubs.

and probably fold kk face up.*:p

mdwexford

Tackle69 wrote: »

Its not scared money... its just the smart play... i can't believe that so called respected players on here advocate a call with a marginal hand such as a8 or even a useless hand like q8... With 200 or 300 bbs in the first few levels, hour long clock etc, i think i know what i'd do with my money regardless of whether is €20 or €10000. No way am i taking a flip.

Agreed, you want to get teh valoo for yer moniez and have a chat with yer mates at the table and get the food at the dinner break and stuff. Putting your money in with A8 is crazy.

Hitman Actual

Tackle69 wrote: »

Its not scared money... its just the smart play... i can't believe that so called respected players on here advocate a call with a marginal hand such as a8 or even a useless hand like q8... With 200 or 300 bbs in the first few levels, hour long clock etc, i think i know what i'd do with my money regardless of whether is €20 or €10000. No way am i taking a flip.

It's not a coin-flip. And folding allows Phil Ivey to outplay you without him even having to look at his cards, which is hardly smart play. Of course if you think you have a better than 60% edge against him (or whatever), then fold away. Your superior play will get him in the end...

zuutroy

How does this thread have so many posts, when interesting hands get about 5...!

Kobraki

mick84 wrote: »

Ask yourself this would you gamble 10,000 on a black jack hand ?

Not on one hand, but over the course of 10 minutes or so.

Itsallzen

Insta call with the Big Lick. Off-suit obviously, for two flush draws!

themilkyone

is this post a joke??got to be one of the funnier threads i've read over the last while...

and how can you claim you would make the same plays if it was for $20 or $10,000?we all know thats not true....

Requiem4adream

Tackle69 wrote: »

Its not scared money... its just the smart play... i can't believe that so called respected players on here advocate a call with a marginal hand such as a8 or even a useless hand like q8... With 200 or 300 bbs in the first few levels, hour long clock etc, i think i know what i'd do with my money regardless of whether is €20 or €10000. No way am i taking a flip.

Tackle - what you should try understand - everyone is a balla on this forum and would have no hesitation in INSTA-SNAP-CALLING Q7+ in this hypothetical. Like who wouldnt!!!! so obvious, marginal edge, take it!!!

I absolutely guarantee you 100% if this actually happened, genuinely, almost everyone saying they'd snap call would be folding everything other than a premium. Anybody who says otherwise is a liar. Travel 3000 miles for a big tournament with a superb structure, excited to be there, looking forward to it for ages, some lunatic open shoves and you look down at A3o it's in the muck before you can blink. Pinch of salt needed to read the replies in these threads.

LuckyLloyd

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Requiem4adream

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well **** you - you can believe anything you want, but I'm snapping A3o here if I'm last to act and am sure he is in blind.

and what's your problem exactly?

bohsman

Requiem4adream wrote: »

Tackle - what you should try understand - everyone is a balla on this forum and would have no hesitation in INSTA-SNAP-CALLING Q7+ in this hypothetical. Like who wouldnt!!!! so obvious, marginal edge, take it!!!

I also qualified my post by mentioning if I was rolled for it... Seriously, first hand of a $20 freezeout on stars whats your calling range to a blind push?

Requiem4adream

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well **** you - you can believe anything you want, but I'm snapping A3o here if I'm last to act and am sure he is in blind.

EDIT: What people don't seem to understand is that you are only in this tournament if:

- You are properly rolled for it after clicking a huge score or clicking life;
- You satted in on the cheap;
- You were backed in for 50%+ of your action by people who trust your style and ethos on the game 100%;

Therefore, statement like "zomg it's a 10k buyin are irrelevant". It's a profitable situation for the huge stack - I really would call, and I can't understand why others can hand on heart say it is wrong to do so.

Lloyd i'm telling you straight up, there's a monumental difference between saying you'll do it and actually being faced with this and doing it. Guarantee if you like your poker, like the game, if it's a 10k buyin you'll be well up for it, have it planned for months and be buzzing before it starts. Still no hesitation throwing it in on a tiny edge 1st hand? No doubt in your mind? 300 bbs 1st hand no hesitation?

RichieLawlor

Requiem4adream wrote: »

and what's your problem exactly?

i agree, Holy overreaction Lloyd

bohsman

Requiem4adream wrote: »

Lloyd i'm telling you straight up, there's a monumental difference between saying you'll do it and actually being faced with this and doing it. Guarantee if you like your poker, like the game, if it's a 10k buyin you'll be well up for it, have it planned for months and be buzzing before it starts. Still no hesitation throwing it in on a tiny edge 1st hand? No doubt in your mind? 300 bbs 1st hand no hesitation?

And if pokers just a job, you're going to be playing the next 10k event next week and if you lose you're going to hop into the 200/400 on full tilt?

LuckyLloyd

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mdwexford

Nobody or very few people on here are rolled to play a 10k tourney.
If you are rolled for these games and play them every week like Ivey or someone then its an obvious snapcall but if you win a sat on Stars or something then i think RD has a point, maybe you are playing a bit scared but if you've travelled over, excited about playing etc etc then i dont think anyone snaps a blind shove with A8, fair play to you if you do but i know i couldnt make that call in the first hand

LuckyLloyd

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cooker3

Requiem4adream wrote: »

Lloyd i'm telling you straight up, there's a monumental difference between saying you'll do it and actually being faced with this and doing it. Guarantee if you like your poker, like the game, if it's a 10k buyin you'll be well up for it, have it planned for months and be buzzing before it starts. Still no hesitation throwing it in on a tiny edge 1st hand? No doubt in your mind? 300 bbs 1st hand no hesitation?

Your whole argument is predicated on the fact that playing this tournament is a big deal and an event. Well in general it shouldn't be a big deal and if your rolled like you should be in any form of poker you play then this would be a snap call. I will ask Oscars question again. If this was a $10 buy-in tournament on stars would you call with A3?

Degag

bohsman wrote: »

I also qualified my post by mentioning if I was rolled for it... Seriously, first hand of a $20 freezeout on stars whats your calling range to a blind push?

Alot higher than q7.. the fact that it is a $20 freezeout is irrevelent... if you are playing in a tournie then you should make the best poker decision regardless of the buy-in. 600 bbs vs 300 bbs in the early stages of a tournie mean nothing when there is so much play left. In my opinion there is far more risk than reward on the overall scheme of things by making this play.

Say your coming down to killarney to play in the €250k tournie... utg pushes in the first hand, can you or any one else here seriously say that they would call with q8?????? Seriously.

RichieLawlor

cooker3 wrote: »

Your whole argument is predicated on the fact that playing this tournament is a big deal and an event. Well in general it shouldn't be a big deal and if your rolled like you should be in any form of poker you play then this would be a snap call. I will ask Oscars question again. If this was a $10 buy-in tournament on stars would you call with A3?

what a load of garbage, 95% of the wsop main event field and i suspect a high % of wpt fields are not rolled for the games, in thru sats or whatever, taking a shot and the like

Requiem4adream

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Coming in and saying that we are being egotistical in saying we would call wide or that us saying we would call wide is nothing more than empty rhetoric. I have been over this ****ing tournament life syndrome debate so many times on this forum it's ridiculous. My position has never changed - I don't feel I'm good enough to pass up edges / and don't tighten up particularly because an event has a relatively bigger buyin. This has shown through in the way I have played all previous games I have been involved in - up to and including the Irish Open.

And I have no reason to doubt what the other posters arguing the mathematical reality of this situation either.

And look, people from the internet do put their money where their mouth is in 10k+ buyin events.

This is nothing about ego and i didnt insult anyone unlike you. I'm saying in theory anybody can say they'd snap Q7+. In practise, either a) we're not sufficiently rolled for the tournament or b) we are plenty rolled for it. With either a) or b) the fact should remain you have travelled to play it and will be looking forward to it, you've just sat down and you're faced with this situation. You'd need to be a robot to snapcall Q7+. Fair play if you can do it.

YULETIRED

Lloyd was quite rude there imo.

Dan, what is your range here as a matter of interest....I'd have a bigger one than normal but there is another consideration.

If I'm playing in a 10k event,(not rolled for it) and one that I've won into and I feel like I'm the worst player at the table (if that is believable:)) I may just call here as it might be one of the few times I've got an edge.....

having said all that I say talk is cheap.......

YULETIRED

bohsman wrote: »

And if pokers just a job, you're going to be playing the next 10k event next week and if you lose you're going to hop into the 200/400 on full tilt?

very very few view 10k event so flippantly.....however the point of the OP though is defunct, If Ivey dogs the caller so what, he got his money in good...so it's a silly post (who am i to talk :-)

how else can you get an edge on Phil ivey...

cooker3

RichieLawlor wrote: »

what a load of garbage, 95% of the wsop main event field and i suspect a high % of wpt fields are not rolled for the games, in thru sats or whatever, taking a shot and the like

You want to point out where I said most people are rolled for these big tournament?
I said they should be

mdwexford

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What is the point with studying the game; battling to understand the maths of the game and recognize plus EV spots - if you aren't going to seize such an obvious one when it is presented to you?

Meh. I'm done with this thread.

Im willing to pass up a 60-40 edge in this spot in a 10k tourney basically because it would be a big deal to me to be playing it. Tourney life syndrome gone mad, meh maybe.

Bringing up the being properly rolled for your games argument is stupid imo because unless you have a million bucks knocking about your not rolled for a 10k tourney, does this mean people should stop trying to sat into events unless they are rolled enough to buy into them in the first place. Id love to see how many people would actually put the chips in in this situation, not many thats for sure.

bohsman

Tackle69 wrote: »

Alot higher than q7.. the fact that it is a $20 freezeout is irrevelent... if you are playing in a tournie then you should make the best poker decision regardless of the buy-in. 600 bbs vs 300 bbs in the early stages of a tournie mean nothing when there is so much play left. In my opinion there is far more risk than reward on the overall scheme of things by making this play.

Say your coming down to killarney to play in the €250k tournie... utg pushes in the first hand, can you or any one else here seriously say that they would call with q8?????? Seriously.

Thats my point, it is the right mathematical move, the only arguments against are that its the first hand and that its a big buyin.

Requiem4adream

cooker3 wrote: »

Your whole argument is predicated on the fact that playing this tournament is a big deal and an event. Well in general it shouldn't be a big deal and if your rolled like you should be in any form of poker you play then this would be a snap call. I will ask Oscars question again. If this was a $10 buy-in tournament on stars would you call with A3?

For me, i dont care if i'm a billionaire, if i travel 3000 miles for a game then i must love the game of poker and be up for this game. In practise after all that effort to get to the game i'm not snapping an open shove 1st hand with Q7+.

Open shove on stars $10 buy-in absolutely not calling with A3 or remotely close to it and that's a climate judgement. I play tons of them and there's a big prevalence of shoving monsters 1st hand by these donks.

bohsman

Requiem4adream wrote: »

Open shove on stars $10 buy-in absolutely not calling with A3 or remotely close to it and that's a climate judgement. I play tons of them and there's a big prevalence of shoving monsters 1st hand by these donks.

As in this case you know theyre on the blind - I dunno, theyre sitting across from you and have their monitor turned off so you definitely know theyre on the blind.

LuckyLloyd

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Degag

bohsman wrote: »

Thats my point, it is the right mathematical move, the only arguments against are that its the first hand and that its a big buyin.

But you don't know you are a 60/40 favourite... by the very premise that you are calling with q7+ (ie. the average), you are acknowledging that 40-50% of the time your oponent will actually have a better hand than you... k2, a3 or the likes.

mdwexford

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If you sat in it is not a tournament that carries 10k of risk for you!! I would struggle to believe that anyone would sat in for much more than 1k - unless you have sold off half your action (or you are NicNic and have spent more than the buyin satting in ). In any case, the point is that you shouldn't have risked an amount on a sat or bought in directly to the main event for more than you can afford given your bankroll at that time.

Just as, if you are stone broke you shouldn't be sitting into a $20 tournament.

Finally, if the fact that the tournament is "important in your life" means that you will be unable to play properly in it and are going to get blinded out then ****ing sell the seat!!

What is so difficult about this stuff for people?

If you got in for $100 bucks it doesnt mean its only worth that once your in, its still a 10k tourney and should be played the same whether you paid full wack in or not imo.

Not sure who you are quoting there but anyway, theres a difference between playing properly and snap calling a blind shove with A3o in the first hand. Its not complete madness to fold it.

Your coming across pretty arrogant and condescending with your last remark btw, i understand exactly where your coming from, i just happen to disagree with you.

Requiem4adream

YULETIRED wrote: »

Lloyd was quite rude there imo.

Dan, what is your range here as a matter of interest....I'd have a bigger one than normal but there is another consideration.

If I'm playing in a 10k event,(not rolled for it) and one that I've won into and I feel like I'm the worst player at the table (if that is believable:)) I may just call here as it might be one of the few times I've got an edge.....

having said all that I say talk is cheap.......

In practise probably 88+, AT+ willie - even at that i'd probably bottle it with 300 bbs. I'm coming from a perspective of reality where i enjoy live events and have made a lot of effort to get there. I'm not getting 2/3 flights for 10+ hours to do that 1st hand. Winning is my priority but i wouldnt have it in me to take a very slight edge 300bbs deep having went a long way to get there. If i'm a billionaire and it's a 10k tourny in Citywest and there are plenty of cabs outside, maybe less, but still probably no :rolleyes:

bohsman

Chucky the tree wrote: »

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.291% 55.95% 01.34% 1173537003 28178640.50 { QhTd }
Hand 1: 42.709% 41.37% 01.34% 867678116 28178640.50 { random }

Tackle69 wrote: »

But you don't know you are a 60/40 favourite... by the very premise that you are calling with q7+ (ie. the average), you are acknowledging that 40-50% of the time your oponent will actually have a better hand than you... k2, a3 or the likes.

.

LuckyLloyd

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Lurker1977

Requiem4adream wrote: »

In practise probably 88+, AT+ willie - even at that i'd probably bottle it with 300 bbs. I'm coming from a perspective of reality where i enjoy live events and have made a lot of effort to get there. I'm not getting 2/3 flights for 10+ hours to do that 1st hand. Winning is my priority but i wouldnt have it in me to take a very slight edge 300bbs deep having went a long way to get there. If i'm a billionaire and it's a 10k tourny in Citywest and there are plenty of cabs outside, maybe less, but still probably no :rolleyes:

But Dan, isn't your argument being undermined by non-poker factors? Much like connie's quote that Lloyd posted earlier regarding the fact a CPT qualifier called with JT versus connie, got shown AK, then said he knew Connie has AK but had "faith" a J was coming?

Requiem4adream

bohsman wrote: »

As in this case you know theyre on the blind - I dunno, theyre sitting across from you and have their monitor turned off so you definitely know theyre on the blind.

ooops sorry ...yeah probably Ax, K8+ something like that... i think my edge in that game is quite large so i'd tend not to go with Q7+. A lot easier travelling from my room to the pc room too

mdwexford

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yes, because I am struggling to understand why clever people can accept that the maths make a certain play correct; and still argue for doing the opposite!!

I think you guys are displaying a shocking amount of arrogance by saying you would fold an Ace to Ivey in this type of scenario because "we have 300BBs and it is the first hand". By saying that you are arguing that you'll find a better spot for your entire tank against him - and that you believe you will double your tank before your exit more than 55 or 60 times out of 100 that you play a tournament against the toughest fields live tournaments can offer.

I'm saying I'm not good enough to do that - and there are very few players in the world who are good enough to fold in that situation (Ivey is probably one of the few as it happens).

Who is being arrogant huh?

Ok ok i guess it just comes down to me playing scared, if this situation was for 100bb's in a cash game i obviously snap or in a normal tourney.

I wasnt talking about playing against Ivey in particular just the situation itself, be it Ivey or Joe Soap the rich Texan oil guy who hates money. Dont give me your "im crap at poker need to take every 51-49 edge i can because i cant outplay anyone crap", you know you're arrogant :)

Ok thats enough arguing for tonight.

Degag

bohsman wrote: »

.

Redo that equation with q8 vs. random and the results should be about even.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yes, because I am struggling to understand why clever people can accept that the maths make a certain play correct; and still argue for doing the opposite!!

I think you guys are displaying a shocking amount of arrogance by saying you would fold an Ace to Ivey in this type of scenario because "we have 300BBs and it is the first hand". By saying that you are arguing that you'll find a better spot for your entire tank against him - and that you believe you will double your tank before your exit more than 55 or 60 times out of 100 that you play a tournament against the toughest fields live tournaments can offer.

I'm saying I'm not good enough to do that - and there are very few players in the world who are good enough to fold in that situation (Ivey is probably one of the few as it happens).

Who is being arrogant huh?

Lol, i'm thinking moneymaker, hachem, gold, yang etc.... world champions not concidered great players.

Requiem4adream

Lurker1977 wrote: »

But Dan, isn't your argument being undermined by non-poker factors? Much like connie's quote that Lloyd posted earlier regarding the fact a CPT qualifier called with JT versus connie, got shown AK, then said he knew Connie has AK but had "faith" a J was coming?

Yes non-poker factors are exactly what i'm talking about. Being human. Travelling, buzz, excitement, anticipation etc. Exactly why it's very easy to say snapcall Q7+ on here and in practise very easy to snapfold Q7+. If ye can all do it then fair play to ye.

LuckyLloyd

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RichieLawlor

Tackle69 wrote: »

Redo that equation with q8 vs. random and the results should be about even.



Lol, i'm thinking moneymaker, hachem, gold, yang etc.... world champions not concidered great players.

Hachem doesnt belong in with those clowns

latenia

Requiem4adream wrote: »

I play tons of them and there's a big prevalence of shoving monsters 1st hand by these donks.

At any tournament up to $50 if I get AA or KK first hand in EP I automatically shove. You'd be amazed how often you get called by AQ, JJ etc or even ace rag depending on the level.

LuckyLloyd

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Lurker1977

Well Q7 is a little bit too tight but there is no way I would pass up A3o closing the action versus a player all-in blind.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

25,170,868,800 games 0.030 secs 839,028,960,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.845% 53.86% 01.99% 13555849932 500721654.00 { A3o }
Hand 1: 44.155% 42.17% 01.99% 10613575560 500721654.00 { random }


So for 20,000 stacks (WSOP starting stack this year and 50/100 blinds i think) its +2336 or just over 23 BB's.

Degag

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Hachem doesnt belong in with those clowns

Joe isn't a great player imo.

RichieLawlor

Tackle69 wrote: »

Joe isn't a great player imo.

This says different imo

maybe not great but well, well above average

cooker3

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Hachem doesnt belong in with those clowns

o rly?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=184853