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Was there a defining moment for you?

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    #62
    sdep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 194 ✭✭sdep


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Interesting thread folks. Notable that Santa was mentioned a few times.

    It is one of life's great rites of passage when we come to say, "Get thee behind me, Santa!"

    I suppose it's one of the first times many of us realised that something all adults had had us believe till then was never actually true. That can spur children on to reassessing other beliefs they've taken on trust.


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    #63
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Jesus: Santa Claus for adults.


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    #64
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Interesting thread folks. Notable that Santa was mentioned a few times.

    Really? Why so?


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    #65
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Well it is only 114 days to Christmas!


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    #66
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Really? Why so?
    Because telling children that Santa exists is a lie even if well intentioned. So maybe it would be a good idea to stop telling children about Santa and the tooth faith because it can lead to cynicism.

    Or were you questioning why I found the thread interesting?


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    #67
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Because telling children that Santa exists is a lie even if well intentioned. So maybe it would be a good idea to stop telling children about Santa and the tooth faith because it can lead to cynicism.

    Couldn't agree more.


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    #68
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Because telling children that Santa exists is a lie even if well intentioned. So maybe it would be a good idea to stop telling children about Santa and the tooth faith because it can lead to cynicism.

    Well fairy tales are also lies and for that matter, so too are all works of fiction. Should we close all the cinemas and burn all non-factural books?


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    #69
    kelly1
    Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    lugha wrote: »
    Well fairy tales are also lies and for that matter, so too are all works of fiction. Should we close all the cinemas and burn all non-factural books?
    Of course not. Children know that stories are just stories. On the other hand we tell children that Santa and the TF are real.


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    #70
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    lugha wrote: »
    Well fairy tales are also lies and for that matter, so too are all works of fiction. Should we close all the cinemas and burn all non-factural books?

    Wow a little harsh no?


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    #71
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    For me it is slightly embarrassing, looking back I feel so stupid. One night when I was 7 or 8 I forgot to say my prayers before bed. I spent the next day in a state of panic, but nothing out of the ordinary or bad happened. Of course I did not forget my prayers that night. I then started thinking and after a couple of weeks I decided to intentionally not say my prayers as a kind of experiment. Needless to say, nothing happened. That was pretty much the beginning of the end for me. Before that one night of forgetting I never dreamed of questioning it. But after that I questioned it all. And I am afraid I found the answers lacking.

    From this I suppose I became a bit of an agnostic. The Selfish Gene sorted that out when I was about 20.

    MrP


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    #72
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »
    Speaking of Santa - my turning point there was probably when we moved to a house that had a blocked up chimney. The presents still came...

    Also, the tooth fairy - now, I think Dawkins told a similar story to this, but one night, I pretended that my tooth had fallen out, as an experiment, and lo and behold, I still got 50p under my pillow the next morning. Mystery solved!

    Yeah its funny how a lot of kids go "Cool, I'm getting presents" and accept the concept of Santa, while some go "Hold on, a man that flies all over the world in a night dropping presents on everyone, that doesn't make sense" ... future atheists me thinks :pac:


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    #73
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Because telling children that Santa exists is a lie even if well intentioned. So maybe it would be a good idea to stop telling children about Santa and the tooth faith because it can lead to cynicism.

    Or were you questioning why I found the thread interesting?

    I've had my head bitten off before for mentioning this on boards, but I have no intention of telling my as of yet hypothetical children that Santa/fairies are real.


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    #74
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Because telling children that Santa exists is a lie even if well intentioned. So maybe it would be a good idea to stop telling children about Santa and the tooth faith because it can lead to cynicism.
    Personally I think telling them about Santa is a bit of harmless fun. Helps them fit in at school. Indoctrinating them into the lie of god and religion is a lot more damaging.

    MrP


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    #75
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Personally I think telling them about Santa is a bit of harmless fun.
    + 1

    It's just a little myth to make children run excitedly to their beds on time once a year. I for one look forward to being Santa this year!

    Though the way Santa and God operate are oddly similar, the belief in the latter is a much more serious matter - as it is not one that is inevitably shed once kids start to reason.


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    #76
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Because telling children that Santa exists is a lie even if well intentioned. So maybe it would be a good idea to stop telling children about Santa and the tooth faith because it can lead to cynicism.

    I suppose that's a believer's perspective. An atheist might take a more positive view and say that it diminishes naivety. A 10 year old child who rumbles the Santa business might say to themselves. "Foolish me for accepting such a tall tale. Now let me consider what other extraordinary ideas I am being asked to accept without evidence …."


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    #77
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Wow a little harsh no?

    Granted, invoking the image of burning books was a tad excessive! My point is that if you believe we should always, well, tell the truth, the whole truth, etc then there appears to be no place for fiction. I don’t believe this. I am all for Santa. Many treasured childhood memories revolved around him.

    And I am not so sure that kids do know that their stories are just stories. It’s a fuzzy line for them at best. When they go to themed parks to see their story book characters then that is really Barney (is he one of them these days?) hopping about the place and not some young lad on minimum wage.


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    #78
    Jannah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 263 ✭✭Jannah


    anti-venom wrote: »
    I was recently reading the God Delusion at work. A collegue of mine asked me what it was about. I explained as succinctly as possible and asked her if she would like to borrow it sometime. "Oh no, I'm afraid it work on me", she replied. They can't take chances on letting reason and truth slip in the back door it would appear.

    That is so very, very true. And it's really sad when you think about it. My mom is a very devout Catholic, but she never reads the Bible and I am positive it has something to do with the fact that she might see something that she doesn't agree with. People have such an emotional attachment to their religion that they simply don't want to see anything that might alter their vision of it. Heh, just had a bit of drama with the parents, they were trying to push some religion medallion on me for 'good luck' in exams and when I said that it wasn't about 'luck' it is about studying and putting in the effort, my dad shouted at me and told me to shut up. People just don't want to know.
    kelly1 wrote: »
    Interesting thread folks. Notable that Santa was mentioned a few times.

    Lol, I was just thinking the same thing!! I suppose lots of people feel decieved by both Santa and God- two people who were supposed to be 'on our side'!


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    #79
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Jannah wrote: »
    ....my dad shouted at me and told me to shut up....

    Wow I thought my parents were bad.


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    #80
    Jannah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 263 ✭✭Jannah


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Wow I thought my parents were bad.
    Lol, my parents are pretty damn Catholic though- anti-contraception, anti-abortion, anti-gay freaks. They are my defining moments, in a way :S But it's hard to blame them- they grew up in culture where if you didn't show up for mass, you sure as hell showed up for confession the next day. It's brainwashing, put simply


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    #81
    OK-Cancel-Apply
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭OK-Cancel-Apply


    Jannah wrote: »
    Lol, my parents are pretty damn Catholic though- anti-contraception, anti-abortion, anti-gay freaks. They are my defining moments, in a way :S But it's hard to blame them- they grew up in culture where if you didn't show up for mass, you sure as hell showed up for confession the next day. It's brainwashing, put simply

    I still find it amazing when I think back on the authority and respect that priests used to command. These days, you wouldn't even make eye contact with one passing by. Your post illustrates the sheer level of fear-based control the church used to have, and the attitudes our grandparents or parents have is testament to the dangerous brainwashing of religion. In our mainly secular society today, it's an easy thing to forget.


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    #82
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Dades wrote: »
    Though the way Santa and God operate are oddly similar, the belief in the latter is a much more serious matter - as it is not one that is inevitably shed once kids start to reason.

    Be good or Santa God wont give you any presents will send you to burn in hell for all eternity.


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    #83
    aidan24326
    Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »
    I still find it amazing when I think back on the authority and respect that priests used to command

    Unfortunately that's probably why it took so long for the lid to be blown open on the abuse scandals, as a child in the 1950s or 1960s you dared not go home and tell your parents that the priest was touching you or whatever it might be. Chances are in many cases you wouldn't be believed and might have got a slap in the jaw for your troubles. Priests were effectively above the law in those days.


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    #84
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Jannah wrote: »
    Lol, my parents are pretty damn Catholic though- anti-contraception, anti-abortion, anti-gay freaks. They are my defining moments, in a way :S But it's hard to blame them- they grew up in culture where if you didn't show up for mass, you sure as hell showed up for confession the next day. It's brainwashing, put simply

    Well I'm sorry to hear that. My mother is quite conservative or possibly submissive to the establishment my father just follows her lead. I recently passed my driving test a few months back and when I rang her to tell her she said "that was granny and me praying" my heart hit the ground with a thud. No mention of my skills as a driver of course :D Nowhere or never in the catholic community I was raised was intellect valued over faith and obedience. Sad really how the bitterness instilled with that upbringing still affects me to this day.


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    #85
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    aidan24326 wrote: »
    Unfortunately that's probably why it took so long for the lid to be blown open on the abuse scandals, as a child in the 1950s or 1960s you dared not go home and tell your parents that the priest was touching you or whatever it might be. Chances are in many cases you wouldn't be believed and might have got a slap in the jaw for your troubles. Priests were effectively above the law in those days.

    To be fair I don't think that was unique to clergy abuse. I have heard many victims who were abused by family members describe their reluctance to tell their guardians.


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    #86
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    lugha wrote: »
    To be fair I don't think that was unique to clergy abuse. I have heard made victims who were abused by family members describe their reluctance to tell their guardians.

    Fair to who?


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    #87
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    Fair to who?

    The truth


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    #88
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    lugha wrote: »
    The truth

    I agree, I just got the impression that you were trying to lesson the judgment that priests get/got more respect than they deserved.


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    #89
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    I have to admit that I have a lot of sympathy for the kind of clergy who were I suspect, drawn to their vocation more by humanitarian instincts rather than spiritual ones (e.g. Fr. Peter MrVerry or even Joe Higgins who I believe was in a seminary for a time). In a more sectarian time and place, such people would most likely have placed themselves in roles where they actually earned rather than had bestowed upon them the respect of society. Its unfortunate that such essentially decent people were and are tarnished by association with the behaviour of some of their peers and consequently are probably being afforded less respect than they might deserve.


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    #90
    Jannah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 263 ✭✭Jannah


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    I recently passed my driving test a few months back and when I rang her to tell her she said "that was granny and me praying" my heart hit the ground with a thud. No mention of my skills as a driver of course :D
    That's EXACTLY it! It's as if God is stealing our thunder lol! I always get really pissed off when "God" is attributed to anything I have worked hard to achieve, and that's why I completely refuse to take part in the attending of extra masses/ carrying of religious objects around exam times- it's just stupidity to think that 'divine intervention' will work if the person themselves doesn't.
    Then again, my mother just tried to explain her racist beliefs to me today by saying that "blacks hadn't fully evolved from being monkeys yet" which is not only the most awful thing a mother who should be setting an example for her kids could say, but also completely goes against the whole religious belief system regarding evolution and humans. To be honest, I don't even think most older, extremely 'religious' people actually understand much about religion at all. They feel so obliged to attend masses and appear Christian-like that actually understanding it is never a priority


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    #91
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Jannah wrote: »
    That's EXACTLY it! It's as if God is stealing our thunder lol! I always get really pissed off when "God" is attributed to anything I have worked hard to achieve, and that's why I completely refuse to take part in the attending of extra masses/ carrying of religious objects around exam times- it's just stupidity to think that 'divine intervention' will work if the person themselves doesn't.
    Then again, my mother just tried to explain her racist beliefs to me today by saying that "blacks hadn't fully evolved from being monkeys yet" which is not only the most awful thing a mother who should be setting an example for her kids could say, but also completely goes against the whole religious belief system regarding evolution and humans. To be honest, I don't even think most older, extremely 'religious' people actually understand much about religion at all. They feel so obliged to attend masses and appear Christian-like that actually understanding it is never a priority

    Your experiences sound scarily simillar to mine. Did you grow up in the west of Ireland? I distinctly remember my grandfather espousing that he didn't really believe there was a heaven and that he'd find out when he died. This was a man who was married to a woman for 40/50 years who is as nearly as holy as the pope and never missed mass at the weekend. Irish catholicism is all about respecting the managment :D or else being dillusional enough to buy into it.


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