Was there a defining moment for you?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

I believe God in His loving providence has given us the means via the Holy Spirit to preserve His truth.

You could be wrong. Demonstrate that you aren't ...

The issue is that you can't. No religious person can. As Robin says all religions are man made because they are all a failed attempt by man to figure out the problem of correct authority.

The answer to that problem is not to just pick one for subjective and arbitrary reasons (you "had a feeling", or it "made sense" to you), but to recognize that you shouldn't pick any because you don't and cannot know which one, if any, is correct. You should not follow an absolute authority unless you can determine, objectively, that you are following the correct absolute authority. That is the problem with religion.

Note that this holds even if there actually is a God.

Jannah

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Your experiences sound scarily simillar to mine. Did you grow up in the west of Ireland? I distinctly remember my grandfather espousing that he didn't really believe there was a heaven and that he'd find out when he died. This was a man who was married to a woman for 40/50 years who is as nearly as holy as the pope and never missed mass at the weekend. Irish catholicism is all about respecting the managment or else being dillusional enough to buy into it.

Nope, I'm a southerner- but methinks it's a nationwide problem (sadly). Your Grandfather is the mirror image of my dad- he goes along with it all for an easy life, even though he doesn't necessarily believe in it. Flipping hell, I hope I never marry a dude who's afraid to speak up against me on something that important- what a terrible existance having to listen to that rubbish when you don't believe a word of it yourself.

And I must agree with you. The whole hierarchal system in the Catholic church has absolutely ruined it- of course there will be abuses of power in a set up like that. I'd be more inclined to agree with the Islamic idea that a person's connection with God is one on one and doesn't require a 'special' person to mediate through. Also, people rely too much on priests to gather all the religious knowledge- without them maybe people might finally get off their asses and actually read the bible and find out what exactly is happening every Sunday while they're mumbling their responses and doing the whole stand, sit, kneel routine. Then again, I don't believe in God in general, but I just think it's a better system if one does believe in God

kelly1

Jannah wrote: »

And I must agree with you. The whole hierarchal system in the Catholic church has absolutely ruined it- of course there will be abuses of power in a set up like that.

Jannah, unity is vital in the Church. Without the hierarchy, how can there be unity of the members and unity of doctrine? If you had multiple independent 'churches' presided over by autonomous Bishops, you'd end up with scores of different and conflicting doctrines. That's not unity!

Eph 4:3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Romans 12:5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Zillah

kelly1 wrote: »

Jannah, unity is vital in the Church. Without the hierarchy, how can there be unity of the members and unity of doctrine? If you had multiple independent 'churches' presided over by autonomous Bishops, you'd end up with scores of different and conflicting doctrines. That's not unity!

Surely if it weren't all nonesense, if it were real, and we had reliable methods by which to understand it, then we wouldn't need authority structures, that a group of bishops would all reach the same conclusions anyway.

Like with science.

Of course, if your religion really is just a pile of waffle I can see why we'd need authority structures to maintain unity.

kelly1

Zillah wrote: »

Surely if it weren't all nonesense, if it were real, and we had reliable methods by which to understand it, then we wouldn't need authority structures, that a group of bishops would all reach the same conclusions anyway.

Like with science.

Of course, if your religion really is just a pile of waffle I can see why we'd need authority structures to maintain unity.

But religion isn't like science, is it? You can't use a Large Hadron Collider to prove God exists. The truths of the Church are based on the correct interpretation of Scripture and this is possible because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit which Christ promised to the apostles.

sink

kelly1 wrote: »

But religion isn't like science, is it? You can't use a Large Hadron Collider to prove God exists. The truths of the Church are based on the correct interpretation of Scripture and this is possible because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit which Christ promised to the apostles.

And round we go in circles. We will not accept any of your evidence because it's not real evidence. You will never accept our logic because your position requires you to abandon it. The only way this conversation will ever end is if you accept logic and throw out any evidence that is unsatisfactory and hence forth become an agnostic/atheist or we abandon logic and accept your faulty evidence thus becoming Catholics. Somehow I don't see either scenario happening.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

The truths of the Church are based on the correct interpretation of Scripture

Why didn't god write/inspire text which has only one interpretation? Why write something unclear, then have to supply aids to understanding what should have been clear to start with?

It's really quite easy to write clear and unambiguous text, though it will certainly appeal to fewer people than text which support multiple interpretations.

tinz18

There wasn't a defining moment really...as a child i was brought to mass and i never really bought into the whole fiasco...i was too smart for my own good. Then at ten i began to question why our faith was considered to be the one true faith, why Islam and Buddhism couldn't be right...after that it was all downhill and I concluded that the whole lot of it was a load of bull...my parents ain't too happy though!:eek:

OK-Cancel-Apply

It wasn't that long ago that children literally had religion beaten into them. That alone would be enough to scare anybody, even in their adulthood, out of opening up their mind a bit. I honestly can't see how too many more people will grow up to still believe Christianity is true. Our priest numbers are at a record low, and the whole thing is fading fast. I think we're entering an age where more and more people see that faith doesn't have any more impact on life than non-faith, and is therefore redundant.

Jannah

kelly1 wrote: »

Jannah, unity is vital in the Church. Without the hierarchy, how can there be unity of the members and unity of doctrine? If you had multiple independent 'churches' presided over by autonomous Bishops, you'd end up with scores of different and conflicting doctrines. That's not unity!

Why do we need a huge organisation? Shouldn't religion be between yourself and God? WHY, I will never know, do they feel the need to wear ridiculious dresses and hats and glow in their own self importance? It is all so incredibly unnecessary. We're elevating these people to positions of importance only so they can control us, exploit their power and make our decisions for us- we're living in a free country yet there are people out there still yearning to be controlled by someone who doesn't even know them- why?????

Galvasean

kelly1 wrote: »

Prove there is no creator!

The burden of proof lies upon those making the seemingly incredible claims. It is up to you to prove the existence of such an omnipotent super being.
Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

MrPudding

Gaviscon wrote: »

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

Is that your favourite line?

MrP

Galvasean

MrPudding wrote: »

Is that your favourite line?

MrP

Yes. I might just put it in my sig. Save us all the bother.

TheDoc

Have to stay stumbled across these threads just today and fantastic reads. However one comment I would make is that I do not agree with ever jeering or making fun of someone elses beliefs, we live in a world where religion doesnt mean anything, but there was times when a strong belief in a god carried people from strength to strength.

I personally dont use the term atheist when describing myself, I just say I believe in nothing. I find using Atheist is some sort of belief.

I remember I was removed from my religion class in first and secondary schools. At a very young age I remember being told the story of jesus rising, and I jsut said "bull****". I couldnt fathom any of the stories or myth, I despised the church, and as I got older realised throughout the centuries they have abused their powers for self gain. I was quick to seperate myself from this cult of abuse.

I do remember one moment though, where I nearly tore apart the beliefs of others and feel bad to this day about it. My girlfriends mother was lieing in her bed soon to pass away, and the whole family was around the bed on their knees praying. I was told to kneel, and I said I do not believe in religions or gods, and that I kneel for no one. This instantly sparked a heated row, to which I revealed that if there was a god, he would come down here and heal this woman, who had spent the last few months stricken with cancer, who prayed 3 times a day, prayed before meals, gave to charity, took in the homeless and did so much to help others in her life.

And after that, a number of her family stood up, refusing to pray.

Have to say i was dumped pretty much on the spot, but I find the whole parying and worhsipping thing nonsense.

And my main point is that if there was a god, he wouldnt let us rot on this ****hole we call home.

Dave!

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

I do remember one moment though, where I nearly tore apart the beliefs of others and feel bad to this day about it. My girlfriends mother was lieing in her bed soon to pass away, and the whole family was around the bed on their knees praying. I was told to kneel, and I said I do not believe in religions or gods, and that I kneel for no one. This instantly sparked a heated row, to which I revealed that if there was a god, he would come down here and heal this woman, who had spent the last few months stricken with cancer, who prayed 3 times a day, prayed before meals, gave to charity, took in the homeless and did so much to help others in her life.

F*ck man... time and place...

Dades

Dave! wrote: »

F*ck man... time and place...

+ 1

That's hardcore, TheDOC!

TheDoc

It was my defining moment, I felt it rather sickening to hear people saying it was some gods plan to take this woman away, to a better place....

It really is a load of lies...

The Mad Hatter

Very Stephen Dedalus of you, TheDOC.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure if I could kneel in a situation like that either. The juxtaposition (er...second time I've used that word in five minutes...) of the solemn and the ridiculous might just be a bit too much for me.

Dades

I'd like to think I might quietly excuse myself from the room to wait outside, but the reality is I'd probably kneel till my knees bled.

Dave!

I'd kneel before Zod ffs... I'm okay with feeling embaressed or feeling like a hypocrite or people losing respect for me. If it provides comfort to the family of the woman DYING in front of my eyes, then I would shut my mouth and kneel on broken glass.

Just me though!

Zillah

I almost laughed at the very Catholic funeral of a very good (atheist) friend of mine, so ridiculous was it to hear such things. I didn't though. I did the whole kneel, sit, stand routine because even I can accept that there is a time and place.

Plus I got to make a subtle point by not going up for communion, which assuaged the militant (!) atheist in me.

Moro23

I started to question things after I read a book called Why bad things happen to good people by a bloke called Harold Kushner, The funny thing is that book is supposed to make your faith stronger. Then the more I read other books the more silly my former faith became . We really do get sold a pup as kids .

kelly1

Moro23 wrote: »

We really do get sold a pup as kids .

No, you've just got more cynical/hard-hearted...

Goduznt Xzst

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

I do remember one moment though, where I nearly tore apart the beliefs of others and feel bad to this day about it. My girlfriends mother was lieing in her bed soon to pass away, and the whole family was around the bed on their knees praying. I was told to kneel, and I said I do not believe in religions or gods, and that I kneel for no one. This instantly sparked a heated row, to which I revealed that if there was a god, he would come down here and heal this woman, who had spent the last few months stricken with cancer, who prayed 3 times a day, prayed before meals, gave to charity, took in the homeless and did so much to help others in her life.

I'd like to imagine I'd be more sensitive in that situation but I probably wouldn't. I wouldn't of taken umbrage like you did but I would of declined the invitation and left the room without explaining my stance... for all they knew I could of had arthritic knee joints and didn't want to be kneeling on them I might of said something like "I can't possibly join you in prayer, but I'm confident that your prayers are helping as much as they can" ... while thinking to myself *as in not helping at all*

Malari

[DM]-TheDOC- wrote: »

Have to stay stumbled across these threads just today and fantastic reads. However one comment I would make is that I do not agree with ever jeering or making fun of someone elses beliefs, we live in a world where religion doesnt mean anything, but there was times when a strong belief in a god carried people from strength to strength.

I personally dont use the term atheist when describing myself, I just say I believe in nothing. I find using Atheist is some sort of belief.

I remember I was removed from my religion class in first and secondary schools. At a very young age I remember being told the story of jesus rising, and I jsut said "bull****". I couldnt fathom any of the stories or myth, I despised the church, and as I got older realised throughout the centuries they have abused their powers for self gain. I was quick to seperate myself from this cult of abuse.

I do remember one moment though, where I nearly tore apart the beliefs of others and feel bad to this day about it. My girlfriends mother was lieing in her bed soon to pass away, and the whole family was around the bed on their knees praying. I was told to kneel, and I said I do not believe in religions or gods, and that I kneel for no one. This instantly sparked a heated row, to which I revealed that if there was a god, he would come down here and heal this woman, who had spent the last few months stricken with cancer, who prayed 3 times a day, prayed before meals, gave to charity, took in the homeless and did so much to help others in her life.

And after that, a number of her family stood up, refusing to pray.

Have to say i was dumped pretty much on the spot, but I find the whole parying and worhsipping thing nonsense.

And my main point is that if there was a god, he wouldnt let us rot on this ****hole we call home.

The harsh thing about that is that you were dumped for refusing to speak to their imaginary friends! If your girlfriend really knew you she wouldn't have asked you to kneel. Or "told" you to, as you say. I would hope that if I was put in that situation my boyfriend would be supportive, not superstitious. What you said in explanation sounds caring and must have meant something to the dying woman.

ChocolateSauce

I wouldn't kneel, and if they demanded I do so I'd refuse. I wouldn't wait outside though if the person was important to me, as I'd have just as much right to be there as they did. If they escalated the situation I'd take the required steps to defend my position.

But damn, I hope that never happens to me!

Handsome Bob

Zillah wrote: »

I almost laughed at the very Catholic funeral of a very good (atheist) friend of mine, so ridiculous was it to hear such things. I didn't though. I did the whole kneel, sit, stand routine because even I can accept that there is a time and place.

Plus I got to make a subtle point by not going up for communion, which assuaged the militant (!) atheist in me.

I've been to three funerals this year and I abstained from getting communion in all of them. I wasn't trying to make a point, it just seemed pointless for me to do it. And I don't think people were scrutinising me to see whether I was getting it or not.:pac:

On a side note, one particular funeral I was at this year was for a young man, only a few years older than me. Him and his three brothers were all atheists but were passive in their views, accept for one; he was always so vocal about the subject when we were growing up on the street. This particular brother made a classy speech at his sibling's funeral. He talked of how the priest was so helpful during those tough days that they had. He said that although he was still an atheist, he had learned not to be so dismissive of people who were religious. He said he would never forget the support he and his family got from the local church and community. It was so moving.

Tyler MacDurden

I have vague childhood memories of being in Knock on a few occasions with the parents and grandparents. For reasons unknown, this particular incident when I was about 8 or 9 remained vivid for me. It was towards the end of a miserable, wintry day, everyone was hurrying to get indoors. We were walking past one of those awful shops selling tacky, made-in-communist-China, Catholic collectables to the pilgrims.

There were some elderly people huddling for shelter under the awning of the store, eating sandwiches and chips, looking frozen half to death. I presume they were waiting for their parish bus or something. A big, ruddy-faced, well-fed looking gentleman came bustling out of the store, shooing them like cattle, telling them not to block his shopfront. They shuffled out into the cold without any argument.

I was really affected by the sight, I couldn't understand how this guy could make his money by selling religious crap to people exactly like them while acting in such an un-Christian manner. I don't recall what my Mam's response was to my pointing this out, but it gave my a cynical view of religious people's motives ever after.

In general though, like most posters so far, I didn't have a single defining moment. My lack of belief came from natural curiousity about how the universe worked and the realisation that it is utterly indifferent to our fate. A steady diet of Sagan, Dawkins et al. over the years helped give structure to my own logic.

On the Santa issue, I once came up with a cunning plan to catch the fecker once and for all. I sat my Talking Action Man on a chair facing the door and somehow rigged a length of string from his cord to the door handle. When someone opened the door, he'd call out "What's the password?!" in his robotic Sandhurst accent.

The only person I caught, on a test-run, was the doctor who came to sort out my chest-infection a few days before Xmas. He was bent double with shock and a chronic dose of the giggles for about ten mins while my Dad apologised profusely. The only explanation was that my former buddy Action Man was bought off by Santa and his Laplandish gold. Which is why I tortured the bugger with a hot poker.

apoch632

I had been having doubts since my teenage years. Went to college and pretty much put it to the back of my mind. Never thought about it. Like the vast majority of people I reckon.

Came home one weekend in november. My uncle had throat cancer for some time and it was just a matter of time at that stage. Anyway that saturday morning he died. Within about 5 minutes (after the last rites and all that malarky) I was dragged to church to pray and such. Something ust struck me at that moment. What were these people doing. The only thought in my head was. "Try all you want. Coming here and kneeling and praying isnt gonna change a damn thing. He's dead. You have to face up to that."

Pretty much since then I viewed religion as a way to try and mentally escape the fact that we are mortal. I later became interested in evolution as a topic. It only re-enforced the atheist viewpoint I held

kelly1

Tyler MacDurden wrote: »

In general though, like most posters so far, I didn't have a single defining moment. My lack of belief came from natural curiousity about how the universe worked and the realisation that it is utterly indifferent to our fate. A steady diet of Sagan, Dawkins et al. over the years helped give structure to my own logic.

Hello Tyler, interesting account there.

Just wondering how curiosity about the working of the universe leads to atheism. Seems to me that many of the top scientists in biology and cosmology have come to the conclusion that there is design behind life (DNA) and the laws of nature. The more they learned, the more their wonder grew.

apoch632 wrote: »

Pretty much since then I viewed religion as a way to try and mentally escape the fact that we are mortal. I later became interested in evolution as a topic. It only re-enforced the atheist viewpoint I held

Greetings Apoch. Again I'd ask how does an understanding of evolution tend towards to atheism? It doesn't answer the big question of how life came to be and why anything at all exists.