Ryanair emergency diversion

diverdriver

Wow, this got hot and heavy quick. Something of a storm in a teacup. Frankly if I was on a flight where the oxygen masks dropped down in front of me. I would place one over my mouth and then attend to my son. Following which I would wake the wife up and tell her to do the same. It's not rocket science. I don't need to read a note or listen for a recorded announcement. Most people don't.

Most people these days have flown once or twice and know what to do. In fact Fratton Fred's comment that when the masks dropped during a heavy landing, many passengers put them on, thus proves that the message got through in spite of the fact that they were on the ground.

On another matter, Zvox's comment that you have six seconds of consciousness at 40,000 feet, while true does exaggerate the issue. No aircraft would depressurise that quickly. Well it would, but no one survives an explosive decompression like that. Even if you smashed a window it would still take time to completely depressurise. In reality most fit passengers, even if they failed to get oxygen would remain concsious during the descent.

No need to exaggerate. Which is apparently what happened thanks to that explorer fellow.

Zyox

Sorry yes, I did forget to add that that was of course in the case of an explosive decompression >_<

My point I was getting to either way was that nobody did actually pass out or die, which would have happened had they not received adequate oxygen or the masks were not working.

Please don't compare to that eejit on the radio >_< The shame.

probe

lithiumoxide wrote: »

As someone who suffered greatly in the past with sinus pressure and ear problems (I used to be very deaf because of it) I can tell you that ear-ache and such pain is caused by changes in pressure between the outside and inside of the eardrum (i.e. in the sinus and outside the ear). Some flyers often experience some ear pain as the craft ascends/descends, while it seems to be more common for the ear to equalise this pressure itself, resulting in what can sometimes be a painful 'pop'.

Some ear discomfort can be expected while the pressure changes during ascent and descent, but these maneouvres take place over long enough time for the ear to balance the pressures itself without difficulty. However, if a fast change in pressure occurs - such as a rapid ascent or descent due, possibly, to a craft losing pressure - the eardrum will stretch and cause pain, before it has the chance to relieve pressure.

I am very aware of this problem. I have a friend who is acutely sensitive to this and has given up flying - other than very short trips where the aircraft doesn't go above say 5,000 m. The problem seems to vary between aircraft, and I suspect many aircraft have minor pressurization issues - perhaps affecting air intake valves not functioning perfectly - which causes a lot of discomfort for the people affected. Most other people on the same plane don't appear to feel anything.

.probe

zuroph

probe wrote: »

I am very aware of this problem. I have a friend who is acutely sensitive to this and has given up flying - other than very short trips where the aircraft doesn't go above say 5,000 m. The problem seems to vary between aircraft, and I suspect many aircraft have minor pressurization issues - perhaps affecting air intake valves not functioning perfectly - which causes a lot of discomfort for the people affected. Most other people on the same plane don't appear to feel anything.

.probe

same with my GF, she starts writhing in agony, and others are looking at her thinking she's having a panic attack or ive just hit her or something! come to think of it, the two times its happened have been on one particular route, and the two times it didnt happen in between were on a seperate route... could it be?!?!

faceman

*Kol* wrote: »

People cant sit in their seats when the seatbelt sign is on, they cant wait till the plane stops at the gate before turning their phones on, they dont bother their arses listening to the safety brief...why be surprised they wouldn't put on or know how to put on an oxygen mask? (Thats a rhetorical question not directed at you jimmycrackcorm!!)

To be fair, the incident of airline trouble for irish and UK passengers is very very small. The safety drill is standard with every flight. With an increase in the volume of flights people take since the introduction of low fares airlines, people become accustomed to the safety drill and phase out "because they have heard it all before"

However put a person in a life/death situation and i imagine its becomes very difficult to recall the right procedure in such a chaotic time. "Fight or flight" kicks in.

I dont think its fair to passenger bash.

zuroph wrote: »

flew with ryanair on saturday, and for the second time my girlfriend was in agony on the descent, i think its a sinus problem of some sort, she gets an acute pain around her nose and eye. other times, she's been fine. can only imagine what would happen to her if the plane suddenly depressurised.

I used to suffer this problem, its common for people with a flu/cold, sinus problems. Chances are the tube which runs from her throat to her ear is blocked. Its very difficult to pop your ears in that situation and all the boiled sweets in the world wont help!

Fortunately for me I dont suffer from it anymore however a lovely Air France employee on board a flight about 10 years ago came to my rescue when i was in severe agony during descent. She took 2 paper cups, quarter filled them with tissue paper that had been soaked in hot water. (obviously she drained the paper first) She told me to cover my ears with the cups during the descent. its worked like a charm. Granted you look a bit silly when doing it, it was better than suffering with crippling pain instead!

not all airlines are familiar with this but i assure you it does work.

zuroph

faceman wrote: »

I used to suffer this problem, its common for people with a flu/cold, sinus problems. Chances are the tube which runs from her throat to her ear is blocked. Its very difficult to pop your ears in that situation and all the boiled sweets in the world wont help!

Fortunately for me I dont suffer from it anymore however a lovely Air France employee on board a flight about 10 years ago came to my rescue when i was in severe agony during descent. She took 2 paper cups, quarter filled them with tissue paper that had been soaked in hot water. (obviously she drained the paper first) She told me to cover my ears with the cups during the descent. its worked like a charm. Granted you look a bit silly when doing it, it was better than suffering with crippling pain instead!

not all airlines are familiar with this but i assure you it does work.

thats fantastic, many thanks. usually she takes sinutabs before the flight and chews airwaves gum, but we forgot the sinutab this time

*Kol*

faceman wrote: »

To be fair, the incident of airline trouble for irish and UK passengers is very very small. The safety drill is standard with every flight. With an increase in the volume of flights people take since the introduction of low fares airlines, people become accustomed to the safety drill and phase out "because they have heard it all before"

However put a person in a life/death situation and i imagine its becomes very difficult to recall the right procedure in such a chaotic time. "Fight or flight" kicks in.

I dont think its fair to passenger bash.

I'm not passenger bashing. If they are so accustomed to it they should know what to do in that case. Are you telling me that every flight you go on that you dont see people stand up when they are not supposed to and that you hear phones beeping on landing before the gate? That goes for UK. Ireland and anywhere else you care to mention.

In the "flight or flight" situation I would imagine the "put the mask on thats in front of your face" scenario would come into play. No?

faceman

*Kol* wrote: »

I'm not passenger bashing. If they are so accustomed to it they should know what to do in that case. Are you telling me that every flight you go on that you dont see people stand up when they are not supposed to and that you hear phones beeping on landing before the gate? That goes for UK. Ireland and anywhere else you care to mention.

In the "flight or flight" situation I would imagine the "put the mask on thats in front of your face" scenario would come into play. No?

Im not saying people arent doing things they shouldnt, but i am saying its human nature.

Fratton Fred

FWIW, in the London Metro and the London Times yesterday there were letters complaining about the articles and pretty much backing up what people have said on here that basically, reassuring passengers is secondary to making sure the emergency is dealt with correctly.

It must be nice for a pilot (OK, nice is probably not the appropriate word) to have an emergency to deal with and being able to use your training.

Biro

probe wrote: »

I am very aware of this problem. I have a friend who is acutely sensitive to this and has given up flying - other than very short trips where the aircraft doesn't go above say 5,000 m. The problem seems to vary between aircraft, and I suspect many aircraft have minor pressurization issues - perhaps affecting air intake valves not functioning perfectly - which causes a lot of discomfort for the people affected. Most other people on the same plane don't appear to feel anything.

.probe

Pressurising the cabin uses fuel. It's possible to keep the cabin at "normal" ground levels of pressure, thus completely avoiding all discomfort, but it just takes too much energy. Instead they do it to a level that's acceptable. Some airlines do it to a less acceptable amount than others!

*Kol*

Biro wrote: »

Pressurising the cabin uses fuel. It's possible to keep the cabin at "normal" ground levels of pressure, thus completely avoiding all discomfort, but it just takes too much energy. Instead they do it to a level that's acceptable. Some airlines do it to a less acceptable amount than others!

Also structurally there would be more pressure on the aircraft which would increase the amount of maintenance required and possibly reduce the life of the aircraft. The aircraft would need to be stronger and heavier too which would increase fuel burn.

probe

zuroph wrote: »

same with my GF, she starts writhing in agony, and others are looking at her thinking she's having a panic attack or ive just hit her or something! come to think of it, the two times its happened have been on one particular route, and the two times it didnt happen in between were on a seperate route... could it be?!?!

It is a random occurrence for my friend too. I can remember one round trip journey where she had no problems on the two outward flights (Swiss.com) but it hit with a vengeance on the way back. It might be down to the crew in the cockpit and their energy saving plans or a defect in the air intake valves.

I am very aware of a different but energy saving related issue on many ryanair flights - which is why I avoid that company as much as possible. The air quality drops to an appalling level mid flight, and I start to feel sleepy. About 10 minutes before landing, they appear to switch on (up) the level of air intake and I immediately regain "consciousness".

This is an appalling breach of human rights by airlines - to mess with peoples' health to save money on fuel. It is little different to using lead based paint on childrens' toys to save a few cents and make the product. If it is driven by energy saving, it is fraudulent competition on the more responsible airlines.

I don't have this problem on Aer Lingus flights.

.probe

lithiumoxide

probe wrote: »

It is a random occurrence for my friend too. I can remember one round trip journey where she had no problems on the two outward flights (Swiss.com) but it hit with a vengeance on the way back. It might be down to the crew in the cockpit and their energy saving plans or a defect in the air intake valves.

It's to do with pressure, not air intake. If you're going to blame anything, blame the outside weather system and its pressure variations.

I am very aware of a different but energy saving related issue on many ryanair flights - which is why I avoid that company as much as possible. The air quality drops to an appalling level mid flight, and I start to feel sleepy. About 10 minutes before landing, they appear to switch on (up) the level of air intake and I immediately regain "consciousness".

How do you know it's "appalling"? How are you gauging air quality? I've never experienced anything like this on any airline.

This is an appalling breach of human rights by airlines - to mess with peoples' health to save money on fuel. It is little different to using lead based paint on childrens' toys to save a few cents and make the product. If it is driven by energy saving, it is fraudulent competition on the more responsible airlines.

My brother experiences ear pain when going up or down steep hills in a car or bus. Is this a breach of human rights by the driver of the vehicle?

You are really grasping at straws here in your quest in Ryanair-bashing, and blowing stuff way out of proportion. Some people experience ear pain more than others, some people don't experience it at all. Just because one person's body can't handle pressure changes as fast as another's, or because one person happens to get sleepy during a descent, doesn't mean that airlines are engaging in "fraudulent competition" or messing with peoples' health. Sheesh.

highlydebased

probe wrote: »

I am very aware of a different but energy saving related issue on many ryanair flights - which is why I avoid that company as much as possible. The air quality drops to an appalling level mid flight, and I start to feel sleepy. About 10 minutes before landing, they appear to switch on (up) the level of air intake and I immediately regain "consciousness".

What utter rubbish. There is no way at all in the flight deck to turn down "air intake" air flow is controlled by the air con packs AUTOMATICALLY. If the packs were to be turned off everyone would die, and the only other option is to high. It has COMPLETE control over flow of air throughout the cabin. About ten minutes before landing the cabin is nearly completely depressurised anyway.

A320-200

probe wrote: »

I am very aware of a different but energy saving related issue on many ryanair flights - which is why I avoid that company as much as possible. The air quality drops to an appalling level mid flight, and I start to feel sleepy. About 10 minutes before landing, they appear to switch on (up) the level of air intake and I immediately regain "consciousness".

This is an appalling breach of human rights by airlines - to mess with peoples' health to save money on fuel. It is little different to using lead based paint on childrens' toys to save a few cents and make the product. If it is driven by energy saving, it is fraudulent competition on the more responsible airlines.

I don't have this problem on Aer Lingus flights.

.probe

You Gimp :eek:

probe

Neon-Circles wrote: »

What utter rubbish. There is no way at all in the flight deck to turn down "air intake" air flow is controlled by the air con packs AUTOMATICALLY. If the packs were to be turned off everyone would die, and the only other option is to high. It has COMPLETE control over flow of air throughout the cabin. About ten minutes before landing the cabin is nearly completely depressurised anyway.

If the cockpit crew have nothing to do with controlling the air conditioning packs, there is software controlling the way they operate. There is a noticeable difference between the air quality on a Ryanair flight (longer than Cork Dublin duration) from say mid-flight to about 10 mins before landing. Michael O'Leary has it programmed into the fleet's computer system that control the packs - to save fuel - if it is not done by the crew.

It is obvious - the outside temperature is around -50C so the more external air that is allowed into the aircraft, the more energy that is consumed to heat it to cabin temperature. Nowhere did I suggest that they switched off the air intake completely.

Airlines invariably deny this. These denials no matter how loud won't fool me!

.probe

http://www.flyana.com

highlydebased

probe wrote: »

If the cockpit crew have nothing to do with controlling the air conditioning packs, there is software controlling the way they operate. There is a noticeable difference between the air quality on a Ryanair flight (longer than Cork Dublin duration) from say mid-flight to about 10 mins before landing. Michael O'Leary has it programmed into the fleet's computer system that control the packs - to save fuel - if it is not done by the crew.

It is obvious - the outside temperature is around -50C so the more external air that is allowed into the aircraft, the more energy that is consumed to heat it to cabin temperature. Nowhere did I suggest that they switched off the air intake completely.

Airlines invariably deny this. These denials no matter how loud won't fool me!

.probe

http://www.flyana.com

Well more fool you then!

Cork-Dublin cruises considerably lower than most other flights, and is therefore is lightly pressurised in comparision, hence the difference. The packs are mechanical, and are not computerised in any sense and it is not possible to alter their operation

To be quite honest, no offence intended but it just seems like a Ryanair bash attempt by you. "less air" does not save fuel.

This flyana website clearly is also misinformed as the claims it makes are nebulous, as someone who is on their way to an ATPL I can tell you solemnly that packs are not turned off during flight, and there is no "fresh air" control. The only air control is temperature!

Perhaps you should read a more informed website

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cabinair/index.html

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/cabinair/facts.html

Biro

Interestingly, and a bit OT, the new 787 will use electric air con and pressurising pumps apparently. The reason for this is they say that the Jet Engine generates so much electricity anyway and normally it isn't used that they can use this to power the air units (don't know the proper name, sorry!), reducing the mechanical load on the engines that is the current system, and saving fuel by using normally wasted electrical energy.

Overflow

Has anyone ever had extreme pain in one of their teeth when decending? It has happened to me twice now both on ryanair flights, but i cant directly attribute this to ryanair of course.

It started as we decended. It was excruciating, I thought my tooth was going to explode Then just as we landed i felt pop in my tooth and the pain was gone instantly. It was very strange, but i freak out now everytime we are about to land.

lithiumoxide

probe wrote: »

If the cockpit crew have nothing to do with controlling the air conditioning packs, there is software controlling the way they operate. There is a noticeable difference between the air quality on a Ryanair flight (longer than Cork Dublin duration) from say mid-flight to about 10 mins before landing. Michael O'Leary has it programmed into the fleet's computer system that control the packs - to save fuel - if it is not done by the crew.

You have absolutely no idea how aircraft, flight systems, physics of atmospheres and fluids, or flight crew operate. You are actually pulling this stuff out of nowhere in order to bash Ryanair and airlines in general.

It is obvious - the outside temperature is around -50C

Show me this evidence, please. A few equations would be appreciated, too. (Lord knows this is what it might take to show you that you're wrong). Keep in mind: I'm a physicist, and I'll analyse it.

so the more external air that is allowed into the aircraft, the more energy that is consumed to heat it to cabin temperature.

Show me this evidence, please. How much energy is used to heat the air? Again, I'd love a few equations to test.

Airlines invariably deny this. These denials no matter how loud won't fool me!

Coz you're making stuff up.

You kicked up a fuss about people going to hospital to get ears tested after a loss of pressure. Since ear pain has been shown to you to be normal in pressure changes, you've resorted to blaming "air intakes", unprofessionalism by cabin crew, and corruption in airline management - including potential slander against Michael O'Leary. What are you even complaining about at this stage? Pressure changes or oxygen supplies?

From what I see, you're taking something quite normal - and something that was handled quite well - mixing in your own random facts and "knowledge" on the subject and trying to come up with something that people are supposed to believe. Take a look at basic business, basic flight theory, basic physics, and basic emergency theory. Then come back when you have a proper argument in favour of your allegations.

diverdriver

Overflow, that is simply trapped air in your filling. Pilots sometimes have to get a special job done to eliminate trapped air in their fillings. You may have to consider that. It certainly is not Ryanair's fault.:P

It is obvious - the outside temperature is around -50C so the more external air that is allowed into the aircraft, the more energy that is consumed to heat it to cabin temperature. Nowhere did I suggest that they switched off the air intake completely.

Sorry Probe that is a fundamental misunderstanding of how air taken into the cabin. In fact air is bled from the engines and is not heated but cooled by the packs. That air is then mixed with recirculated air from the cabin. The recirculated air is also filtered. It is also worth noting that the air in the cabin is constantly being replaced.

If the crew stopped the taking in outside air the cabin would gradually depressurise unless they closed the outflow valve. But most of the time it's packs to automatic.

Red Alert

The outflow and vac valves are automatic too, although I think a facility exists to hold them open when on the ground to ensure the plane/outdoor pressures are equalized.

On a standard aircraft system, cabin pressure can usually be supplied from Engine 1 or 2, and/or the APU in the back. The engines and APU supply hot air at high pressure from the compressor stage of the engine, called bleed air. This is fed into the air-cycle packs - basically a refrigerator which is itself powered by the high pressure hot air flow (a bit non-intuitive). The air coming out of this will be freezing cold, so it is mixed with some uncooled bleed air to set the cabin temperature. Both the temperature and air flow volume can be set differently, the outflow valve lets enough air out to keep the cabin at the right pressure.

A separate system with fans and filters does the recirculation air flows and powers the vent jets above your head. So an air-quality issue isn't necessarily related to the actual pressure level.

A few older planes (very old 737's) had trouble taking off on full load if the pressurization system was on, since it 'steals' hot air from the engine. Therefore it was standard procedure to turn it off just for the take off run and switch on immediately after. But these types of planes aren't in service on major airlines anymore. Modern planes have the pressurization system managed totally electronically, and their engines have much higher compression abilities anyway. So assuming the intake/outflow valves are working OK and all the seals are in order and doors are closed, there's little chance of a pressure incident being caused by the pressurization system itself.

Maybe one of the pilots might be able to correct a few details above, but I hope it helps to disprove a few of the crazier claims made on this thread.

EDIT: none of this has anything to do with the emergency oxygen system which is totally separate.

FOGOFUNK

Probe just stop, I think your a troll at this stage.

FlutterinBantam

Red Alert wrote: »

The outflow and vac valves are automatic too, although I think a facility exists to hold them open when on the ground to ensure the plane/outdoor pressures are equalized.

On a standard aircraft system, cabin pressure can usually be supplied from Engine 1 or 2, and/or the APU in the back. The engines and APU supply hot air at high pressure from the compressor stage of the engine, called bleed air. This is fed into the air-cycle packs - basically a refrigerator which is itself powered by the high pressure hot air flow (a bit non-intuitive). The air coming out of this will be freezing cold, so it is mixed with some uncooled bleed air to set the cabin temperature. Both the temperature and air flow volume can be set differently, the outflow valve lets enough air out to keep the cabin at the right pressure.

A separate system with fans and filters does the recirculation air flows and powers the vent jets above your head. So an air-quality issue isn't necessarily related to the actual pressure level.

A few older planes (very old 737's) had trouble taking off on full load if the pressurization system was on, since it 'steals' hot air from the engine. Therefore it was standard procedure to turn it off just for the take off run and switch on immediately after. But these types of planes aren't in service on major airlines anymore. Modern planes have the pressurization system managed totally electronically, and their engines have much higher compression abilities anyway. So assuming the intake/outflow valves are working OK and all the seals are in order and doors are closed, there's little chance of a pressure incident being caused by the pressurization system itself.

Maybe one of the pilots might be able to correct a few details above, but I hope it helps to disprove a few of the crazier claims made on this thread.

EDIT: none of this has anything to do with the emergency oxygen system which is totally separate.

Yep.. packs off t/o... fairly common too.

parsi

FOGOFUNK wrote: »

Probe just stop, I think your a troll at this stage.

Probe trolls in a few fora - it used be Commuting/Transport where he played "guess what european city I'm living in".. s/he has moved here now..

kippy

probe wrote: »

A diagnosis of the cause of Ryanair passenger admissions to Centre Hospitalier Limoges is a matter for the doctors and specialists on duty at the time in question.

Suffice to say that it is remarkable the extent to which certain elements of the Irish aviation industry will go to brush things under the carpet, rather than allowing a full and frank discussion to take place, which can only be to the benefit of both the industry, the country, and the travelling public.

.probe

Joining this one late and sorry if this has already been addressed.
1. Theres feck all point having a full and frank discussion about this incident until an official report has been released which contain the FACTS, facts which you freely admit you dont know at this time.
2. I have a fear of flying but from what I have seen from the evidence presented thus far, there were no issues with the procedures followed after the depressurisation happened.
3. The more worring aspect is why this happened in the first place.

Lets hope the official report finds out the causes and puts recommendations in place to ensure its chances of happening again are lessened.

Kippy

probe

All I hear above is a bunch of spin doctors for Ryanair / Boeing… Facts please…. eg l/sec of fresh air intake (i.e. not recycled) into an FR 737-800 compared with an EI, AF, DL or LX flight using A320 equipment during an entire flight of say 120 min duration. Per m3 of cabin space – the 737-800 is a somewhat bigger beast. Something we can hang our hats on, rather than the usual boards.spam.from.vested.interests.stuff.

I have never encountered (air supply) issues on an Airbus aircraft. My ears don’t deceive me. I can hear the rush of extra air into the cabin on a Ryanair flight as it goes into approach mode. It is not some subtle change that takes place as the aircraft drops in altitude – it is a “switched on” change. I’m not suggesting that the flight crew necessarily participate in this – it could be triggered by altimeter data feeding into the air con control system.

I assume it takes place to “wake people up” as the aircraft comes in to land, so that they will be alert in case of an emergency evacuation. Perhaps it has nothing to do with what goes on in the flight deck….. if there is a “fuel-mizer” option box to tick on a 737 order form, I have no doubt that Michael couldn’t resist ticking it! (ie a box that delivers an aircraft that saves fuel by restricting air intake or restricting anything else, using software settings or old fashioned clockwork technology). (Michael doesn’t appear to be into ordering stuff online, looking at the design and architecture of the Ryanair website, and to show my neutrality one could say the same in respect of the EI website).

I’m not anti-Ryanair or anti-Boeing. I do have reservations about the way both companies operate. Most companies in freely competitive markets on the planet grow in size by offering a better product / service than their competitor. That doesn’t seem to apply to airlines – and Ryanair has capitalised on this by being as obnoxious as possible to the customer in terms of everything it does and in the media in general. It wouldn’t cost them a cent to be more customer focused and quality conscious, because the company would enjoy higher yields and load factors.

.probe

http://www.scientificjournals.com/sj/espr/Pdf/aId/2518

http://ashsd.afacwa.org/docs/ITFpaper.pdf

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/09/03/trqa_ed3_.php

“Changes to aircraft pressurization and air conditioning systems-particularly increases in the amount of air, which is now recirculated-has reduced engine bleed flow requirements. These measures have significantly reduced engine fuel burn at cruise conditions. Cabin air quality requirements, however, might limit these methods of achieving further fuel savings.”
http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc/aviation/093.htm

highlydebased

Again alot of what you are saying is utter rubbish.

If you dont like flying on a 738, then fine, dont. Go fly with someone else if you think that you will get "more air" on different equipment.

In theory both Airbus and Boeing equipment have typically the same system and flow rate. I'm not too positive about the figures but I will find them...

*Kol*

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Again alot of what you are saying is utter rubbish.

If you dont like flying on a 738, then fine, dont. Go fly with someone else if you think that you will get "more air" on different equipment.

In theory both Airbus and Boeing equipment have typically the same system and flow rate. I'm not too positive about the figures but I will find them...

I wouldn't waste your time if I was you. He will only come back with more more dubious theories based on what can be best described as an alarmingly small amount of knowledge on the subject.

highlydebased

Probably..!