Four wheel drive alignment

metricspaces

Anyone where a good place to get four wheel drive alignment done in Dublin?

I'm looking to get it done on an Audi S3.

- Audi dealer...would be good, but I'm guessing expensive, anyone got experience with getting it done with a dealer?

- Audi specialist...are there any in Ireland? Guessing they would be cheaper than the dealer

- Good independent...anyone know any good ones, especially with four wheel drive cars?

peasant

You mean wheel alignment as in camber,caster, toe-in and all that crack?

There shouldn't really be any difference between 4WD and 2WD when it comes down to the pure mechanisc of alignin it

Find a tyre place with a modern laser guided machine, all the values for proper alignment should be in the database of the machine (they even have my old thing in it) and you're sorted.

mickdw

lots of the independents can get it so wrong its crazy. Even with the values on the database, it still seems to be down to the guy doing the work.
Also many new vw & audi require an additional 'raised toe check' which only dealer or specialist will be able to do although my audi dealer wasnt particularily aware of this either.
I once got a 4 wheel alignment done on my Alfa 166 after hitting a pothole. Got car checked at dealer and was declared healthy. Went to an independent tyre company for a 4 wheel alignment and it destroyed all 4 tyres within a month after. When looking closely at the car, I could actually see the rear wheels pointing inward. When I had it redone, There was 5 times the required toe all round!

metricspaces

I've heard some bad reports about some places doing alignment and messing it up. So I'm just wondering if people had places they'd recommend from experience.


Also, does anyone know what additional work gets done in a full geometry setup that doesn't get done in a four wheel alignment?

peasant

When i got the alignment done on my yoke, I was standing next to the machine while the guys did the work.

You can't really get it wrong on a modern laser machine. Once it has the correct car selected from the database it will show the "is" and "should be" values, the direction in which to move the wheel and a red or green light will tell you if you've got it right ...

mickdw

peasant wrote: »

When i got the alignment done on my yoke, I was standing next to the machine while the guys did the work.

You can't really get it wrong on a modern laser machine. Once it has the correct car selected from the database it will show the "is" and "should be" values, the direction in which to move the wheel and a red or green light will tell you if you've got it right ...

There is an element of steering centering and thrust direction of the car to be decided and there is always room for idiots

mickdw

metricspaces wrote: »

I've heard some bad reports about some places doing alignment and messing it up. So I'm just wondering if people had places they'd recommend from experience.


Also, does anyone know what additional work gets done in a full geometry setup that doesn't get done in a four wheel alignment?

Generally with an alignment they will only adjust the 'toe' i.e. the direction of the wheel. however with a full setup, everything can be set just so but will sometimes require some aftermarket parts to get camber right if you have had your car lowered or if you had any crash damage etc.

Also on modern audi, the camber of the front wheels can be balanced by moving the subframe. This would not be done as a standard alignment though but an alignment should show any setup work that needs doing

metricspaces

The car is standard setup. I just got the car...but the guy I got it of had 18inch non-audi alloys...so he switched the alloys back over to the standard 17inch audi alloys.

The car passed an MOT and an AA vehicle inspection the previous week without a problem...but this was on the 18inch wheels.

The car is currently pulling to the left quite strongly. I'm guessing the guy didn't get the tracking done when he switched the wheels over from 18inch to 17's.

So, I'm currently just looking into the best place to get this done, as I'd rather get it right the first time. Not sure if I should go to a dealers for a full geometry, or find a good independent.

mickdw

Have a quick look at the tyres yourself to ensure thay are all the same size. They should read something like 225/45 R17. Make sure all four have the same figures.
Did it pull on the other set of tyres?
Is one of your tyre pressures very low?

metricspaces

Yep, all tyres are the correct\same size 225/45/R17.

I don't know if it pulled to the left on the 18's but I'm gonna check with the guy.

Apparently it is an issue with some S3's that they pull to the left a little...but this is pulling quite strongly at speeds above 60mph.

Darando

I am thinking of lowering my car-new shape Focus (using Eibachs), I have been told to also purchase the rear camber alignment kit to avoid uneven rear tyre wear.

Wheres a good place to get it done-Im Dublin based (assuming the settings won't be standard as mentioned above so somewhere who knows the score) and what time/cost would I be looking at????

mickdw

metricspaces wrote: »

Yep, all tyres are the correct\same size 225/45/R17.

I don't know if it pulled to the left on the 18's but I'm gonna check with the guy.

Apparently it is an issue with some S3's that they pull to the left a little...but this is pulling quite strongly at speeds above 60mph.

Alot of audis pull left under full acceleration due to unequal length drive shafts however, your car is 4wd so I wouldnt expect that as it sends most power to rear wheels under acceleration. It certainly shouldnt pull when driving at a set speed on a good road surface.
My brand new A5 is a pig for pulling both ways on the road but thats a long story.

Fishtits

Dave McCann Tyres in Blanch.

Used by all main dealers as a subby.

http://www.davemccanntyres.com/

mickdw

Darando wrote: »

I am thinking of lowering my car-new shape Focus (using Eibachs), I have been told to also purchase the rear camber alignment kit to avoid uneven rear tyre wear.

Wheres a good place to get it done-Im Dublin based (assuming the settings won't be standard as mentioned above so somewhere who knows the score) and what time/cost would I be looking at????

http://www.autocarparts.com/c_Ford_Focus_c_Suspension_Camber-Kits/

They supply an adjustable link arm for the rear suspension which is pretty straight forward. The front would be more tricky and I would only have an expert do it but dont know anyone to do it.

Darragh29

mickdw wrote: »

Generally with an alignment they will only adjust the 'toe' i.e. the direction of the wheel. however with a full setup, everything can be set just so but will sometimes require some aftermarket parts to get camber right if you have had your car lowered or if you had any crash damage etc.

Also on modern audi, the camber of the front wheels can be balanced by moving the subframe. This would not be done as a standard alignment though but an alignment should show any setup work that needs doing

Jesus Christ...:mad::mad::mad:

Darragh29

mickdw wrote: »

Alot of audis pull left under full acceleration due to unequal length drive shafts however, your car is 4wd so I wouldnt expect that as it sends most power to rear wheels under acceleration. It certainly shouldnt pull when driving at a set speed on a good road surface.
My brand new A5 is a pig for pulling both ways on the road but thats a long story.

All FWD drive cars have unequal length driveshafts ffs, the length of a driveshaft has no bearing whatsoever on the angular distance it travels relative to the other driveshaft on the vehicle ffs, the diameter of the input and output coupling of the driveshafts, relative to each other will determine this... Some of the stuff/advice I'm reading on this forum is starting to make my cringe...

VeVeX

metricspaces wrote: »

The car is standard setup. I just got the car...but the guy I got it of had 18inch non-audi alloys...so he switched the alloys back over to the standard 17inch audi alloys.

The car passed an MOT and an AA vehicle inspection the previous week without a problem...but this was on the 18inch wheels.

The car is currently pulling to the left quite strongly. I'm guessing the guy didn't get the tracking done when he switched the wheels over from 18inch to 17's.

So, I'm currently just looking into the best place to get this done, as I'd rather get it right the first time. Not sure if I should go to a dealers for a full geometry, or find a good independent.

If the car is pulling with the 17's now, its nearly a certainty that it would have been pulling with the 18's provided that the tyres are in good condition. There is only a slight difference in circumference between the two. Really the only thing that could be effected is a slight camber.

On the 8L S3 you can adjust front and rear toe. You can also make small adjustments to the front camber using the bottom ball joint. There were two suspension setups available - Standard and the quattro GMBH upgrade. The GMBH version is a little lower and is fairly easy to spot on an alignment machine due to the increased camber on the rear.

Darragh29

VeVeX wrote: »

If the car is pulling with the 17's now, its nearly a certainty that it would have been pulling with the 18's provided that the tyres are in good condition. There is only a slight difference in circumference between the two. Really the only thing that could be effected is a slight camber.

On the 8L S3 you can adjust front and rear toe. You can also make small adjustments to the front camber using the bottom ball joint. There were two suspension setups available - Standard and the quattro GMBH upgrade. The GMBH version is a little lower and is fairly easy to spot on an alignment machine due to the increased camber on the rear.

Anyone think of checking the brakes for front axle imbalance??? If your fiddling around with the ball joint location to play with camber settings, your seriously compromising the safety of yourself and other road users...

VeVeX

Darragh29 wrote: »

Anyone think of checking the brakes for front axle imbalance??? If your fiddling around with the ball joint location to play with camber settings, your seriously compromising the safety of yourself and other road users...

Get off the owl high horse pal.

He asked a wheel alignment question now you have it nailed down to a braking problem that's endangering life.

Get a grip.

VH

mickdw wrote: »

Generally with an alignment they will only adjust the 'toe' i.e.

Also on modern audi, the camber of the front wheels can be balanced by moving the subframe.

Toe-in and camber shouldnt really be touched by anyone on any car - most if not all manufacturers say these are not "user" adjustable.

michdw wrote:

Alot of audis pull left under full acceleration

Darragh29 wrote:

All FWD drive cars have unequal length driveshafts ffs

No, not all - proper positioning of the gearbox can result in even length driveshafts - also some manufacturers split the longer shaft into two half shafts which also results in the outer shafts on both sides being equal length.

I have never noticed distinctly biased torque steer - as per what mickdw says - in any fwd car - usually because the manufacturer has taken steps (above) to minimise or eliminate it.

Darragh29

VeVeX wrote: »

Get off the owl high horse pal.

He asked a wheel alignment question now you have it nailed down to a braking problem that's endangering life.

Get a grip.

No high horse "pal". Some people here are professionals, brake imbalance can cause front axle wheel misalignment of more accurately the appearance thereof. As for arsing around with ball joint position, if you knew what you were talking about, you would be well aware of the obvious consequences of doing this...

Darragh29

VH wrote: »

Toe-in and camber shouldnt really be touched by anyone on any car - most if not all manufacturers say these are not "user" adjustable.



No, not all - proper positioning of the gearbox can result in even length driveshafts - also some manufacturers split the longer shaft into two half shafts which also results in the outer shafts on both sides being equal length.

I have never noticed distinctly biased torque steer - as per what mickdw says - in any fwd car - usually because the manufacturer has taken steps (above) to minimise or eliminate it.

Right, give me two cars with two drive shafts on one side and one on the other. Actually, give me one car, (standard car that an average Joe Soap could buy), on the road with identical length drive shafts???

VH

honda prelude springs to mind as they made a big deal of it way back then - equal length

half shafts - well lots have that setup

Mr.Diagnostic

Darragh, you are losing the plot here.

When he said two shafts on one side he meant the type with the carrier bearing, eg Alfa 156. Audi A4 has equal length shafts.

Some ball joints are mounted on a triangular plate which bolts onto the bottom arm and the mounting holes are slotted. They are slotted to be adjustable. Nothing dangerous about adjusting suspension to spec.

Brake imbalance would not cause a pull except under braking or if one side was binding.

Mr.Diagnostic

VH wrote: »

Toe-in and camber shouldnt really be touched by anyone on any car - most if not all manufacturers say these are not "user" adjustable.

there is quite a difference between them not being user adjustable and saying they should not be touched by anyone. There is absolutely nothing wrong with setting suspension angles within spec. at time setting outside spec is required and also quite safe.

VH

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

Audi A4 has equal length shafts.

A4 is a bit of a red herrring owing to being fwd but with a longitudinally mounted engine - equal length shafts with a transverse mounted engine is a bit more complicated (as if I need to tell you )

as regards the toe-in and camber - in normal circumstances these shouldnt be touched - as we know - but they quite often are. eg lowering a car will screw up camber. I can't think of a good reason to adjust toe-in tho unless partaking in Nascar

Mr.Diagnostic

Toe is tracking. Needs adjustment due to potholes, minute wear, following suspension work etc

VH

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

Toe is tracking. Needs adjustment due to potholes, minute wear, following suspension work etc

its not quiet that simple - tracking can seem perfect but toe-in can be too much or too litttle

Mr.Diagnostic

Suspension geometry is not at all simple but toe should be set relative to the centre line of the car. In that case it will be in, straight or out. To set it any other way will cause problems.

How could it be right if there is either too much or too little tow? Do you mean one side could be towed in and the other out?

Say you have unequal top and bottom arms, what effect would not centering the rack have on the other angles.

If a car is to be set to spec then Toe is either right or not.

VH

as long as a car is tracking straight a lot of places would consider that to be ok - they would not have access to (or bother with) the manufacturers specs

EDIT: I could be wrong but afair toe-in on the current car is only a few degrees, like 3. I cant imagine kwikfit giving a toss as long as the car is tracking straight (ie the same toe-in (eg 10 deg) on both sides will cause the car to track straight).

VH

driveshafts in the top setup are equal length

in the bottom just one long shaft is used to the wheel further from the gearbox