Abortion- Right or Wrong

tallaght01

Malari wrote: »

I don't know if that's quite fair. Most women have to think about the consequences of becoming pregnant and if they don't want to have a baby an unplanned pregnancy would be traumatic. An abortion early on in the pregnancy must, in many circumstances, be less traumatic for these women than carrying a pregnancy to term.

I never said that doesn't happen. But I think we're maybe underestimating the trauma that having an abortion can bring.

What I'm saying is that I'm not convinced that in 98% of abortions, the risk of abortion to the mother's mental health is greater than that of the pregnancy.

But I don't know that for sure, and would never claim to.

carlybabe1

eveie wrote: »

thedydal im not arguing with you over this point im just stating that if you believe that from the moment of conception that a life is created then m.a.p can sometimes be clasified as a very early abortion. i am aware that the medical profession do not agree with this[/quote

]





Th e only basis for this belief is religious, as science and as a result law do not believe this to be so. And if this is a widely held belief of prolifers then the argument of not using contraception falls flat as the majority of women who use the morning after pill do so as a result of the condom bursting

Zulu

seamus wrote: »

Repercussions of giving birth:
Possibility of physical disfigurement, requiring surgery and recovery period
Reduced Libido
Increase in personal costs, both in terms of time and money
Increased stress
Reduced rest

Repercussions of termination
Possibility of physical disfigurement, requiring surgery and recovery period
Remote chance of infertility
Increase in personal costs, both in terms of time and money
Reduced Libido
Increased stress
Reduced rest

Feel free to add. Let's ignore any "mental anguish" argument, because they differ wildly from person to person and situation to situation.

But by that token, so does "increased stress", "reduced rest", "reduces libido".
You are just dressing it up to suit your argument. :rolleyes:

tallaght01

Malari wrote: »

I didn't say it was hard and fast evidence. It was compiling the few studies that were there, and found them inconclusive. But as they mention, unless you randomly select a group of women who become unintentionally pregnant and force half of them to carry to term and half to have abortions, you will never get a proper sample.

Well, the author also misrepresented the (limited) evidence that she talked about. There's something like 400 abortion psychoogy studies out there. She picked the ones that suited her argument. She also misrepresented some of them.

But the important thing is that we can agree that there has never been a conclusive study either way,

eveie

seamus in all your worldly knowledge are you suggesting that the ONLY repersussions from a termination is the "remote possibility if infertility" so theres no cahnce what so ever that a women may have serious mental and physical complications from having an abortion. see abortion is glorified as this quick and easy procedure with little represussions. however it is not that easy and any women who has had an abortion will testify to that

tallaght01

carlybabe1 wrote: »

The only basis for this belief is religious, .

Well, that's not true.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

as science and as a result law do not believe this to be so

Neither is that. "Science" has never drawn a line in the sand about when life starts!

jim o doom

My OH's view on the whole thing; we don't want kids, there are plenty of them running around as it is.. She doesn't want stretched ladyparts (I don't want her to have them either!) & she doesn't want a big filthy caesarian scar, not to mention the stress of putting on weight & the fact that due to a serious hip injury which is not repairing she would be in agony 24/7 *but thats only a small part of it. If she gets pregnant - its baby-killing time
it's pointless trying to make me feel bad about it because I don't care about the unborn.. In fact sometimes, with the crap that goes on worldwide I have serious trouble caring for a lot of my fellow men (when I say men I am of course reffering to people, fellow man is just a saying).

eveie

carlybabe i hate(but oh so secretly love) to point this out but you are wrong, there is scientific research documented and agreed upon by scientist all over the world that life begins at conception, if you look through the post near the begining of this thread you will see links

eveie

jim im not even going to reply to your post

tallaght01

jim o doom wrote: »

My OH's view on the whole thing; we don't want kids, there are plenty of them running around as it is.. She doesn't want stretched ladyparts (I don't want her to have them either!) & she doesn't want a big filthy caesarian scar, not to mention the stress of putting on weight & the fact that due to a serious hip injury which is not repairing she would be in agony 24/7 *but thats only a small part of it. If she gets pregnant - its baby-killing time
it's pointless trying to make me feel bad about it because I don't care about the unborn.. In fact sometimes, with the crap that goes on worldwide I have serious trouble caring for a lot of my fellow men (when I say men I am of course reffering to people, fellow man is just a saying).

Mate, your rights are your rights. But I reckon you've done the pro-choice argument more harm than good with that post :P

jim o doom

eveie wrote: »

carlybabe i hate(but oh so secretly love) to point this out but you are wrong, there is scientific research documented and agreed upon by scientist all over the world that life begins at conception, if you look through the post near the begining of this thread you will see links

who cares if life starts at conception, we have the power to end it if we want to. and don't bother trying to rationalise.. what if it was born, what if it was an adult blah blah blah, I don't care if its "alive".

Nevyn

eveie wrote: »

seamus in all your worldly knowledge are you suggesting that the ONLY repersussions from a termination is the "remote possibility if infertility" so theres no cahnce what so ever that a women may have serious mental and physical complications from having an abortion. see abortion is glorified as this quick and easy procedure with little represussions. however it is not that easy and any women who has had an abortion will testify to that

True but you know what recovering from giving birth is harder.

jim o doom

tallaght01 wrote: »

Mate, your rights are your rights. But I reckon you've done the pro-choice argument more harm than good with that post :P

To be honest, I don't care if I have done any argument harm or good, do u think some thread about people's views online is really going to affect the situation at all? all we are doing here is pointlessly exchanging views, because no one here is going to change how they feel about the issue because of what someone says, regardless of how logical it is, because people base their views on this issue on their emotions, as they do with most things and not logic..
I care zero about the unborn and I am not the only one.

eveie

jim by your very logic then i should be able to kill my little cousin...why?.....because i can whoo yeah

Zulu

Thaedydal wrote: »

True but you know what recovering from giving birth is harder.

...in your opinion/experience. Everyone recovers differently.

eveie

page 8 of this thread has the link i was talking about

carlybabe1

eveie wrote: »

thedydal im looking for that evidence. but if you try to deny that many women have abortions because its just not the right time or crap i dont wanna ruin my figure well then i dont see how that can be considered mental issues.
jc2k3 i havent put words in anyones mouth although many have mis represented me

Oh join me on a little reality trip here please for **** sake, I for happen to have more faith in human nature than to think that any women would have an abortion to simply "save her figure" anyone with a bit if cop-on and who's not blinded by the emotional propaganda of prolifers can see this statement for what it is, horse****! As is the repeated claims that abortion is used as a contraceptive....HELLOOOOO!!!! Its slightly more expensive dontcha think, not to mention more hassle, if anything its used when contraception FAILS.....Oh and CDfm, are women the only ones in the whole sexual intercourse thing that are responsible for the contraception????

jim o doom

Thaedydal wrote: »

True but you know what recovering from giving birth is harder.

Thats a good point, I'm sure hormones do be all over the place, plenty of chance of post-natal depression, strong chance your lady parts may need repairing & will probably never be the same again, plus all the wonderful agony of squeezing the little beast out. yuck.

tallaght01

Thaedydal wrote: »

True but you know what recovering from giving birth is harder.

That all depends on how you define "recovering".

I don't think anyone who argues that abortion is wrong is doing so on the basis that it'll have you on your back for 5 days.

It's not about physical recovery.

eveie

i think even many of the pro-choicers on this thread would strongly disagree with jim, mods i think this guy is trying to rise a few people here, he is not interested in the debate/talk and is only trying to get a reaction i suggest we all ignore him

jim o doom

eveie wrote: »

jim by your very logic then i should be able to kill my little cousin...why?.....because i can whoo yeah

Yeah sure - you can, you can also rape an animal. however you will go to jail because it's not legal anywhere and thats a person with experiences who has already been born.
an unborn baby is ALIVE but it's not yet a person.. I don't really care if you think it is, because I don't and obviously neither of us are going to change our minds about it..
I don't regard killing an alive "thing" - who care's if "it" is alive its not a person. yet. and the fact that it can eventually become one doesnt bother me in the slightest, the killing of an actual person would bother me though im not that mental..

carlybabe1

eveie wrote: »

carlybabe i hate(but oh so secretly love) to point this out but you are wrong, there is scientific research documented and agreed upon by scientist all over the world that life begins at conception, if you look through the post near the begining of this thread you will see links

Oh I beg to differ, and if your so sure then post the medical journal links that point out this miracle of scientific discovery:rolleyes: Now I said scientific discovery not scientology

eveie

carlybabe you in face have talked a whole lot of horse crap and you know it, yet you have not retracted your statement.
the whole it'l ruin my figure was the reason a freidn of mine gave to aborting and that is 100& factual she gave no other reason so that is no bull! i know of other girls who have used that as anexcuse

eveie

carlybabe page 8 of this thread has the link i told you that already.

jim o doom

tallaght01 wrote: »

That all depends on how you define "recovering".

I don't think anyone who argues that abortion is wrong is doing so on the basis that it'll have you on your back for 5 days.

It's not about physical recovery.

well what kind of recovery is it about then? mental? spiritual???? there are no good statistics that anyone here has posted in relation to recover as far as mentality goes really..

plus the amount of life a baby takes away from you, even if u give it up for adoption is quite a large amount of your life.. abortion doesn't

tallaght01

jim o doom wrote: »

well what kind of recovery is it about then? mental?

Well, yea. I thought that was one of the more important points

carlybabe1

tallaght01 wrote: »

Well, that's not true.




Neither is that. "Science" has never drawn a line in the sand about when life starts!

Yes it is, if you read the previous posts, insead of misquoting me you would see that this is in relation to the morning after pill, which is available in this country legally and is only effective up 72 hrs after conception

Malari

I have to say, my reasons for choosing abortion would largely overlap with those given by Jim's OH.

Nope, I'm not going to change my mind from reading anything I've seen in this thread, but I do enjoy discussing topics like this and it's good to exchange views and make you think about it, so you can defend your opinions.

Nevyn

tallaght01 wrote: »

That all depends on how you define "recovering".

I don't think anyone who argues that abortion is wrong is doing so on the basis that it'll have you on your back for 5 days.

It's not about physical recovery.

How about the two years it takes for the back and pelvis to realign it's self to before a woman endured pregnancy ?

Pregnancy and afterward is not a walk in the park by a long run.

seamus

Zulu wrote: »

But by that token, so does "increased stress", "reduced rest", "reduces libido".

I'll concede libido, I shouldn't have put it in.

But you can't possibly claim that anyone who has a child (and keeps it obviously) carries on just as they did before at the same levels of stress and sleep. I have yet to meet anyone who claims that having a child is a breeze. Sure, some people have it easier then other and some kids sleep most of the night, but universally parents get less rest and have more stress to deal with than non-parents.

If your red text was additions to the list, then please explain how a termination can result in long-term:

Possibility of physical disfigurement, requiring surgery and recovery period
Increase in personal costs, both in terms of time and money
Increased stress
Reduced rest

jim o doom

tallaght01 wrote: »

Well, yea. I thought that was one of the more important points

well opbviously its important - I know this is "anecdotal evidence" and therefore not much use to yez, however;

old woman in my job, tell's me about a friend of her's that she has known for 40 years. That woman got pregnant (back in the bad old days) when she was in her 30's (the story teller being in her 60's) - and had a child unbeknowst to her entire family. She gave up the child, and spent her entire life wondering about the whole thing. Child contacted her a few years ago and asked "why did you give me up?" she tried to explain, but the girl couldn't or didn't want to understand.. told the woman she was evil and never wanted contact again. Woman was devestated, and spent her remaining years first in a mental home, and then in depression and never really got over it.

To say that GIVING UP the fruit of your loins, your child, after it has been born, for adoption is not choice that will not only affect you for the rest of your life is any better than abortion, I would have to argue the point.
I myself am adopted, was told early on, and I am sure it has coloured my life views (for better or worse I don't know).
When a child is born, the mother usually devlops a bond with the baby.. and its not just mental but physical (the feeling of love being a chemical that is released during childbirth in massive amounts, also released during sexual intercourse) - to break that bond must cause INSANE mental anguish.

If that is not a fair and decent point I don't know what is.

carlybabe1

eveie wrote: »

carlybabe you in face have talked a whole lot of horse crap and you know it, yet you have not retracted your statement.
the whole it'l ruin my figure was the reason a freidn of mine gave to aborting and that is 100& factual she gave no other reason so that is no bull! i know of other girls who have used that as anexcuse

then i seriously suggest you find other friends girl, if of course this is true and your not stating this as a way of supporting your argument?? But no, I dont think you'd do that??? I dont need to retract my statement, why would I

tallaght01

carlybabe1 wrote: »

Yes it is, if you read the previous posts, insead of misquoting me you would see that this is in relation to the morning after pill, which is available in this country legally and is only effective up 72 hrs after conception

I don't understand this point. You're using a piece of law to backup a claim that science is in total agreement about when life starts?

Thaedydal wrote: »

How about the two years it takes for the back and pelvis to realign it's self to before a woman endured pregnancy ?

Pregnancy and afterward is not a walk in the park by a long run.

Well, even if that was true in a majority of cases, and even if it gave significant amounts of women mobility difficulties for 2 years after delivery, the recovery time from pregnancy surely shouldn't be the point of contention in the abortion issue!

seamus

eveie wrote: »

seamus in all your worldly knowledge are you suggesting that the ONLY repersussions from a termination is the "remote possibility if infertility" so theres no cahnce what so ever that a women may have serious mental and physical complications from having an abortion. see abortion is glorified as this quick and easy procedure with little represussions. however it is not that easy and any women who has had an abortion will testify to that

I already pointed out that I was ignoring the mental factor, as results vary and statistics are incomplete.

For the most part, abortion is technically a quick, simple and painless process, if you remove the psychological factor.

If people weren't guilted and tormented into believing that they were terminating a life then perhaps there would be a few more contented souls after abortions.

Dragan

eveie wrote: »

carlybabe you in face have talked a whole lot of horse crap and you know it, yet you have not retracted your statement.
the whole it'l ruin my figure was the reason a freidn of mine gave to aborting and that is 100& factual she gave no other reason so that is no bull! i know of other girls who have used that as anexcuse

You cannot take something annecdotal and argue as if it is factual. Things like this ( the reasons why someone might opt to abort) can only really be discussed on a case by case basis.

Also, did you tell your friend and those other girls that you think they are murderers?

Finally, nothing in the link you posted was scientific evidence, it was interpretation.

jim o doom

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't understand this point. You're using a piece of law to backup a claim that science is in total agreement about when life starts?



Well, even if that was true in a majority of cases, and even if it gave significant amounts of women mobility difficulties for 2 years after delivery, the recovery time from pregnancy surely shouldn't be the point of contention in the abortion issue!

and why shouldn't it be? clearly the pro-choice people don't believe a human is being exterminated (generally speaking) - and if the fact that you are going to be injured for x amount of time and don't believe you are ending a life, then what other things should come in to play?
and I alreay did say a good bit about mental recovery.
Knowing your child is running around alive somewhere for your whole life has got to be distressing. I know that having a possibility of 2 living parents running around disturbs me ( my adoptive parents croaked it and i loved them so much, I have no interest in my biologicals & i think it would hurt my parents memory in my own eyes to look them up.)

jim o doom

seamus wrote: »

If people weren't guilted and tormented into believing that they were terminating a life then perhaps there would be a few more contented souls after abortions.

That is an amazingly good point.. as with contraception which the church isn't really into. You are ending the chance for a person to possibly exist, repent, feel guilt!

carlybabe1

carlybabe1 wrote: »

]

tallaght01 wrote: »

I don't understand this point. You're using a piece of law to backup a claim that science is in total agreement about when life starts?

No Tallght01, Im not, Im quoting scientific knowledge that at 72 hrs after conception there is no feotus, and the law backs up the science not the other way round...
and heres the other posts i was responding to cause ye couldnt be arsed readin them









Th e only basis for this belief is religious, as science and as a result law do not believe this to be so. And if this is a widely held belief of prolifers then the argument of not using contraception falls flat as the majority of women who use the morning after pill do so as a result of the condom bursting

eveie wrote: »

thedydal im not arguing with you over this point im just stating that if you believe that from the moment of conception that a life is created then m.a.p can sometimes be clasified as a very early abortion. i am aware that the medical profession do not agree with this

eveie wrote: »

carlybabe i hate(but oh so secretly love) to point this out but you are wrong, there is scientific research documented and agreed upon by scientist all over the world that life begins at conception, if you look through the post near the begining of this thread you will see links

Well, even if that was true in a majority of cases, and even if it gave significant amounts of women mobility difficulties for 2 years after delivery, the recovery time from pregnancy surely shouldn't be the point of contention in the abortion issue!

kizzyr

For all those who firmly believe that a baby's life has started at the moment of conception, what is their stance on pre implanted embyros? Are this seen as being the same as an embryo created in utero rather than a petri dish? When someone has surplus embryos and decides not to use them all what do they think should be done with them? Is research and testing on them wrong? Are you really testing on an unborn child? Is it better to leave them frozen for any length of time? Is destroying them any different, better or worse than abortion?

Earthhorse

Holy hell, this thread is moving like a freight train this morning.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

always a pleasure earthhorse

Likewise, my dear, likewise.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

cause thems the figures, for every ten babies born at 24 wks, only four will survive outside the womb in an incubator

Nice dodge. Why is 4 in 10 any criteria for determing the cut off point? Why not 1 in 10 or 2 in 10?

carlybabe1 wrote: »

You've just proved my point here with your reply,jees anyone would think you didnt agree with my opinion

Nah, if this thread had really turned into a pro-life bashing zone then you had one of two realistic options; drop out of the debate or report any out of line posts to the moderators.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

Eh actually, yeah they did or I wouldnt have posted this info, flick back a few pages before ye get on your high horse (no pun intended)

Nope. I won't do your hard work for you. If you belive such a post exists then find it and quote it or link it. I've read the whole thread and didn't see anything like that.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

On the contrary, my thoughts are how dare the irresponsible adult put an innocent child through the mill,because they have been careless, and continue to be careless towards that child. And its not because of some misplaced morality that junkies dont get abortions, its cause they spend all the money they can get on drugs.

And your solution to this is to abort such children?

carlybabe1 wrote: »

I wasnt replying to anything in dragans post or Id have quoted him....like I have you

tallaght01 was replying to Dragan's post and I was just putting the context you removed back on.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

No mention of my cut off point??? why's that

I wasn't replying to anything in your post or I'd have quoted you...like I did him.

As for your cut off point, 24 weeks is something that would probably be acceptable to a lot of pro-choicers and therefore workable (it works in the UK for instance). Personally, I would not be for it.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

Thats the whole basis of his argument, location, and whether the baby is wanted or not

And he avoided, intentionally or not, a question about that argument.

carlybabe1 wrote: »

neither is prochoice and proabortion

Neither are chalk and cheese. What's your point?

carlybabe1 wrote: »

Eh actually it is, several posts and arguments bare based on when the cut off point should be. If you dont think a cut off point is relevent, and abortion is just wrong no matter when it occurs then it would follow, (in a logical debate) that you must think the morning after pill is murder too???
or do you indeed have a cut off point????

Not sure you really read my post there. JC 2K3 argued he couldn't pick a particular point because it was arbitrary. My point is that all points we pick in this debate are ultimately arbitrary because no philosophically sound definition of when life begins will be found which everyone will agree to. He just uses different criteria to others but the point he chooses is just arbitrary as theirs is.

My cut off point would be conception. My understanding of the MAP is that it prevents conception taking place. Also, I believe in allowing for exceptions such as risk to the mother's life or certain conditions where we know the baby will be stillborn. In such cases it seems cruel and unusual to force a woman through a pregnancy.

jim o doom wrote: »

My OH's view on the whole thing; we don't want kids, there are plenty of them running around as it is.. She doesn't want stretched ladyparts (I don't want her to have them either!) & she doesn't want a big filthy caesarian scar, not to mention the stress of putting on weight & the fact that due to a serious hip injury which is not repairing she would be in agony 24/7 *but thats only a small part of it. If she gets pregnant - its baby-killing time

Wow, the stress of putting on weight? The end of the world. "Baby-killing time". You are too cool for school.

jim o doom wrote: »

it's pointless trying to make me feel bad about it because I don't care about the unborn.. In fact sometimes, with the crap that goes on worldwide I have serious trouble caring for a lot of my fellow men (when I say men I am of course reffering to people, fellow man is just a saying).

You don't care about the unborn. You don't care about your fellow man.

jim o doom wrote: »

who cares if life starts at conception, we have the power to end it if we want to. and don't bother trying to rationalise.. what if it was born, what if it was an adult blah blah blah, I don't care if its "alive".

You don't care if life starts at conception. You don't care if it's "alive".

jim o doom wrote: »

To be honest, I don't care if I have done any argument harm or good,

You don't care if you have done the argument any harm or good.

jim o doom wrote: »

do u think some thread about people's views online is really going to affect the situation at all? all we are doing here is pointlessly exchanging views, because no one here is going to change how they feel about the issue because of what someone says, regardless of how logical it is, because people base their views on this issue on their emotions, as they do with most things and not logic..

That is a lot of shit to not care about in just one morning. Why bother contributing to the thread, and I use the term contributing loosely, if you don't actually care about the issue at stake or the debate at hand?

jim o doom wrote: »

I care zero about the unborn and I am not the only one.

You care zero about the unborn. I remember that Imagine lyric too.

jim o doom wrote: »

Yeah sure - you can, you can also rape an animal. however you will go to jail because it's not legal anywhere and thats a person with experiences who has already been born...

No, you will go to jail because it's illegal in whatever jurisdiction you are in. Abortion is illegal in Ireland.

jim o doom wrote: »

an unborn baby is ALIVE but it's not yet a person.. I don't really care if you think it is, because I don't and obviously neither of us are going to change our minds about it..

You don't really care if she thinks it is because you don't. Great.

jim o doom wrote: »

I don't regard killing an alive "thing" - who care's if "it" is alive

Not you.

jim o doom wrote: »

If that is not a fair and decent point I don't know what is.

It is a fair and decent point. If only you would make more of them. Likewise, I can give you examples of women who have suffered mental anguish as a result of having abortions. We can't legislate mental anguish out of people's lives unfortunately.

seamus wrote: »

If people weren't guilted and tormented into believing that they were terminating a life then perhaps there would be a few more contented souls after abortions.

You could argue that about pretty much anything people feel guilt about. If there weren't already some emotional attachment there, beyond societal influences, I doubt people could really be made to feel much mental anguish over something they regarded as nothing more than a bunch of cells and not a real person.

The fact is you are always going to have women who will have an emotional attachment to the life, foetus or whatever you want to call it, growing inside them from very early stages. If they decide to have abortions regardless of this there will no doubt be emotional pain. But again, we cannot legislate emotional pain out of people's lives.

If we were to legalise abortion one important thing to do would be to educate women to this consequence which they may face. Right now, I feel it is a bit of a taboo subject, or something that a lot of women at the very least won't talk about, and I think that leads to a lot more of the same.

Blazer

seamus wrote: »

I'll concede libido, I shouldn't have put it in.

But you can't possibly claim that anyone who has a child (and keeps it obviously) carries on just as they did before at the same levels of stress and sleep. I have yet to meet anyone who claims that having a child is a breeze. Sure, some people have it easier then other and some kids sleep most of the night, but universally parents get less rest and have more stress to deal with than non-parents.

If your red text was additions to the list, then please explain how a termination can result in long-term:

But every parent will you it's worth it.
I myself don't have kids and can't see it ever happening.
I don't know how parents cope with kids..but it's a choice they made and every single one of them has told me that it's worth it and they would never change it.

And frankly anyone that considers an abortion because they were too stupid to use proper contraception/ ruin her figure etc I'm quite happy for to have an abortion.
Last thing you want is those ppl contributing to the gene pool.

eveie

can one of the mods please deal with jim, he is not contributing to this discussion, i have no problem reading pro-choice posts because at least their passionate about their beliefs.

eveie

kizzyr wrote: »

For all those who firmly believe that a baby's life has started at the moment of conception, what is their stance on pre implanted embyros? Are this seen as being the same as an embryo created in utero rather than a petri dish? When someone has surplus embryos and decides not to use them all what do they think should be done with them? Is research and testing on them wrong? Are you really testing on an unborn child? Is it better to leave them frozen for any length of time? Is destroying them any different, better or worse than abortion?

i do believe that surplus embryos is the destroying a life.
i would also like to point out for the very last time that not one pro-life person on this has brough up religion in thier argument however the pro-choice people seem to have an issue and have brought it up a number of times. religion to alot of people is very important however it is not required in order to call yourself pro-life, in america maybe but not in ireland.(kizzy that is not directed at you)

jim o doom

Well I am contributing because as little as I care about the unborn et al, I do care] about peoples right to choose whether or not they are going to have a child, I would have thought that was obvious

as to the lyric? I have no idea what you are talking about, I am primarily into heavy metal, and if something I said is a lyric it is a coincidence.. do you think I am trying to be "too cool for school?" and regardless, why do you need to use that to debase my opinion? are people who are trying to be cool worthless, and also their opinions?

And I note you wonderfully picked the stupid reasons my OH & me gave towards having an abortion and completely ignored the fact that she has a major injury and a child would cause HUGE problems, because HELL that doesn't suit you in the slightest. I love how the pro life side choose small parts of arguments in an attempt to make a person look stupid and ignore whatever else because it doesn't suit what they think or feel.

I wasn't trying to be cool btw, it's just how I feel and as I said the lyric was pure coincidence and I don't know why you bothered bringing it up, but feel free to bash me for my opinions further, because like a lot like my feelings towards my fellow man, and the unborn; I don't really care what your opinion is either, I am just debating.. and think that allowing abortion is grand. Also.. a lot not to care about in one morning? I don't care about that stuf 24/7 all of my life, I didn't just magically start not caring about them to look cool on boards.. and to infer that I did is ridiculous

Also murder, for instance of a young cousin, is illegal everywhere. people cannot go to England, to murder their young cousin, because it is illegal there, and everywhere else & there is no contention about murder, everyone knows that it's wrong. Abortion, being a contentious issue worldwide, is not illegal everywhere, and many people go from here to there, so that they can do what they feel needs to be done

In relation to me not caring if she thinks it is a child and I dont.. is that not the issue at hand? Obviously you don't care that I think its just a bunch of cells, because if you did you wouldn't be belittling me for putting forth my view, but you did, so you don't care.. you must be too cool for school too! wow we should hang out

And of course we can't legislate, I was just trying to give an example of how the anguish of having a child and giving it up for adoption would be as painful mentally as having an abortion.. i wasnt saying anything other than that..

the pro-life side seem to think that having a child and if you don't want it, give it up for adoption, problem solved, its not that simple and I was trying to point that out as well, but of course my point was ignored]

jim o doom

Mathew Reilly wrote: »

But every parent will you it's worth it.
I myself don't have kids and can't see it ever happening.
I don't know how parents cope with kids..but it's a choice they made and every single one of them has told me that it's worth it and they would never change it.

And frankly anyone that considers an abortion because they were too stupid to use proper contraception/ ruin her figure etc I'm quite happy for to have an abortion.
Last thing you want is those ppl contributing to the gene pool.

hell i can't argue with that, I don't want my genes polluting the pool, although from watching what people worldwide do to each other everyday, I would say that water's fairly dirty already..

jim o doom

eveie wrote: »

can one of the mods please deal with jim, he is not contributing to this discussion, i have no problem reading pro-choice posts because at least their passionate about their beliefs.

Read my last few post's, I am being flippant, but that doesn't mean you get to decide I am not a part of this.. because I still have views and this is a discussion..
Are you saying I have to be passionate about something to have a view or contribute? Sure am glad you ain't the mod because it would only be pro-lifers on if you were

CDfm

jim o doom wrote: »

That is an amazingly good point.. as with contraception which the church isn't really into. You are ending the chance for a person to possibly exist, repent, feel guilt!

I dont agree here.

I think the church view hinders not helps the discussion. But contraception is available and hopefully you are your good lady dont fall into the situation where abortion is the issue. Hope the hip improves!

The discussion is relevant to you and you have a vested interest in it like it or not and while to points are academic ethical and philosophical- we can all see part of ourselves in them. I imagine thats what makes it uncomfortable.

jim o doom

CDfm wrote: »

I dont agree here.

I think the church view hinders not helps the discussion. But contraception is available and hopefully you are your good lady dont fall into the situation where abortion is the issue. Hope the hip improves!

The discussion is relevant to you and you have a vested interest in it like it or not and while to points are academic ethical and philosophical- we can all see part of ourselves in them. I imagine thats what makes it uncomfortable.

Yeah we use contraception (religiously hoho ) so the only way it would ever really come in to our lives would be through a serious mishap..
I appreciate your concern about her hip.. more surgery might fix it

Yeah that is what makes it so uncomfortable, perhaps I am so flippant about the unborn because I can't really imagine myself in the situation where it could happen. maybe if it did I'd swap sides in the debate.. but as you said it's academic until then.. but that being said, I can still see how it could be necessary in some situations, and thats why I think it shouldn't be totally illegal..

eveie

i was merely asking the mids to have a look, and if you had of read my post properly you would have seen that i stated that i have no objection to pro-choie opinions but i really do thik you are trying to stir it up, if your not im sorry.
about your OH with the bad hip, i think alot of people didnt focus on this because you made it quite clear that you dont care for the unborn and that you would abort anyway regardless of the hip issue or not, for other reason as her going out of shape etc. so i wouldnt say that we are picking or choosing, i dont think it would matter much to you if your oh had a perfectly good hip.
also in responce to another poster whos name escapes me at the moment.....all my friends including those who have choosen abortions know where i stand on this, i have talked to them at lenght about it, they came to me before they had abortions unfortuntly i couldnt change their views, i donno if ive ever used the word murder infront of them but that wasnt a conscious thing i have used the word killing and the funny thing is, someone who has aborted may find that word offensive but i find it offensive that a childs life was destroyed, so its a no win situation. i have a very close knit group of friends, we share some opinions we disagree on different things, but we accept our opinions, i dont feel i need to stay quite just because one or two of them choose abortion and they dont feel that they need to keep quite either

eveie

jim your confusing me on the one hand i thought you were ofr abortion no matter what the circumstance and now you say
"I can still see how it could be necessary in some situations, and thats why I think it shouldn't be totally illegal.. "