Is an Atheist world polygamist?

Zillah

theozster wrote: »

I don't think so. I think the base instinct is to smash the skull in on anyone who tries to take your mate.

Take, yes. Share, maybe not. According to Caesar the Celtic tribes in Britain had a system whereby several brothers would share a group of wives between them and they would raise all the children as their own.

Goduznt Xzst

Wicknight wrote: »

Not really chicken and egg because evolutionary emotional systems came long before human society. I think there is quite a lot of reason to believe it is the later of the two options. It would not be at all surprising if evolutionary emotional systems shaped society, but very surprising if it was the other way around.

I'm not saying that jealousy as an emotion was formed by forced monogamy, that would be absurd, I'm saying that the jealousy around monogamous relationships has formed because of this.

I can't remember the study's name but it was shown that if you give an individual a sum of money and everyone else in the room nothing they will be content with what they received, however if you give everyone else in the room a greater sum of money they will be discontent with what they received and jealous that they to did not receive an equal amount, even though nothing had changed for them their emotive response could be manipulated depending on what was happening in the microcosm around them.

The same is true in society, people get jealous if their partner seeks another mate because it is expected that they should only have one in a monogamous society. This jealousy comes from this expectation of a system that is implemented by either a religion or government. If you expect your partner to seek multiple other partners there would be no jealousy, it is only when you believe you have a copulatory ownership over another individual that this jealousy will form.


On a side, more4 will be showing an interesting documentary on a polygamist relationship tomorrow (Tuesday) at 22:00 called "Four Wives, One Man"

http://www.channel4.com/listings/M4/index.jsp?offset=1&position=1

Dave!

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14641-monogamy-gene-found-in-people.html?feedId=online-news_rss20

Goduznt Xzst

Dave! wrote: »

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14641-monogamy-gene-found-in-people.html?feedId=online-news_rss20

good study, but there are equally as many studies, if not more, that seem to show that humans are naturally polygamist. I guess we won't really know for sure though until a society exists where there are no restrictions and people can choose to form either a polygamist or monogamous relationship.

Why does the final sentence unnerve me? Why can I see this being used as a weapon?

"next task is to test how a nasal vasopressin spray affects altruism and jealousy."

Dave!

They did a few studies on oxytocin and trust (turns out it does affect us, increasing trust and generosity in alot of tasks), and check it out :

http://www.verolabs.com/

Goduznt Xzst

Dave! wrote: »

and check it out :

http://www.verolabs.com/

finally! they are releasing products to help pedophiles get children into their cars :rolleyes: what a great world we live in

Zombrex

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

The same is true in society, people get jealous if their partner seeks another mate because it is expected that they should only have one in a monogamous society.

I think there is a bit more to it than that. You are drawing comparison between studies of resources and food (I've seen these studies, particularly in children, and they are very interesting) with sexual partners. There seems to be evolutionary reasons why we act the way we do with resources and food and they are a bit different to why we act the way we do in terms of sexual partners.

Connecting the two is a bit of a jump. I think it would be better to stick to studies that actually deal with sexual relationships.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

This jealousy comes from this expectation of a system that is implemented by either a religion or government. If you expect your partner to seek multiple other partners there would be no jealousy, it is only when you believe you have a copulatory ownership over another individual that this jealousy will form.

Again that doesn't appear to be true. People experience feelings of jealousy and possessiveness of romantic partners from a very early age (early teens), well before society could structure their feelings in such away with things like marriage laws or religion.

Again I think it is far more likely that society reflects our natural instincts than society shapes are natural instincts. This appears to be reflected in Dave's article.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

On a side, more4 will be showing an interesting documentary on a polygamist relationship tomorrow (Tuesday) at 22:00 called "Four Wives, One Man"

I've seen documentaries like this before (we seem to be rather fascinated by stories like this). Interestingly enough in the programs I've seen the problems really start to occur when the man starts having children with the multiple wives, as I think is the case with this documentary from reading the blurb.

Goduznt Xzst

Wicknight wrote: »

Again that doesn't appear to be true. People experience feelings of jealousy and possessiveness of romantic partners from a very early age (early teens), well before society could structure their feelings in such away with things like marriage laws or religion.

Really? You don't think being raised by monogamous parents, having friends with monogamous parents and knowing the world to be monogamous has any affect on the fact that this teen will also expect a monogamous relationship for themselves?

Zombrex

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Really? You don't think being raised by monogamous parents, having friends with monogamous parents and knowing the world to be monogamous has any affect on the fact that this teen will also expect a monogamous relationship for themselves?

Not really. How many 12 year olds are given lectures about being monogamous to te girl they are pulling hair with in the play ground by their parents? Most parents keep silent about sex and relationships until their children are much older.

We in the western world are bombarded by sexual imagery all the time, but if you look at what the "sexy celebrities" are actually doing, they are all rushing to get married. People with the freedom to shag around for decades end up getting married in their late teens or early twenties (look at Angelian Jolie, Peaches Geldof or Britney Spears). People rebel against what society tells them but if you look at those who have rebelled so much they actually have what could be considered freedom from society norms, they all get married. And we are shocked and appalled, not applauding them.

It is hard to believe that this is society forcing them, they largely decide what is society in this celebrity obsessed time.

Goduznt Xzst

Wicknight wrote: »

Not really. How many 12 year olds are given lectures about being monogamous to te girl they are pulling hair with in the play ground by their parents? Most parents keep silent about sex and relationships until their children are much older.

monkey see monkey do. A child does not need to be told to start a monogamous relationship when they can clearly observe it in their parents. I realized from a very young age that I only had 1 mother and 1 father and that this was the norm. Also speaking of teens, many teens, at least amongst the friends I knew, liked multiple girls at the same time, but they chose the best of these girls to ask out because it was accepted you could have only 1 girlfriend. I postulate that in a world with accepted and practiced polygamy a child raised with multiple mothers, fathers or both would view it as normal, and when they would start to be attracted to the opposite sex they wouldn't have to limit their interests to only 1 person.

Zombrex

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

monkey see monkey do.

Well monkey see monkey do doesn't actually hold very well.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

A child does not need to be told to start a monogamous relationship when they can clearly observe it in their parents.

Well yes but if that was the case children of divorced parents would most likely end up having multiple polygamist relationships. The opposite appears to be the case, children from divorced parents are more likely to marry young (and probably because of that more likely to themselves divorce).

There is an instinctive need for this family unit, the break up of it can effect not only the adults but the children as well, who often go on to seek out a "perfect" family unit later in life to compensate for the absence of the one they had growing up.