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Lisbon Treaty Referendum 2 - Return of the Gombeen Man

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    #362
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    turgon wrote: »
    Well all Im saying is that this "minuscule" amount of people were the only ones to express their view on it. At the end of the day, imo, the EU is a state of citizens, not a state of states. These Irish citizens who voted NO dont seem to have blocked any European citizens who voted YES, simply because there were no such votes.

    I apologize if the impression I got from your post was in conflict with what you intended to communicate.

    Well I kept the response short and to the point because I have no intention of getting into "that" debate again, i.e. the support Lisbon may or may not have across the rest of the Union. If you take a brief look at my history I'm sure you'll see my views on that have been raised and discussed to death! :pac:

    However the EU IS a union of states and not citizens regardless of your opinion on it. If it were a State (which is what a union of citizens would be in this case) it would not require Treaties - excluding any with external countries - but instead would just have a Constitution and EU laws. If it were a State then any State that were a part of it or any state that joins would need to abandon their sovereignty in favour of the EU as a whole.

    The EU is just a collection of independant and sovereign countries working together for mutual interests. These interests naturally benefit the people as a whole, though sometimes go against the needs and/or wishes of a minority for the greater good. By its very nature it is not a union of citizens, and imo never should be.


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    #363
    auerillo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭auerillo


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Well I kept the response short and to the point because I have no intention of getting into "that" debate again, i.e. the support Lisbon may or may not have across the rest of the Union. If you take a brief look at my history I'm sure you'll see my views on that have been raised and discussed to death! :pac:

    However the EU IS a union of states and not citizens regardless of your opinion on it. If it were a State (which is what a union of citizens would be in this case) it would not require Treaties - excluding any with external countries - but instead would just have a Constitution and EU laws. If it were a State then any State that were a part of it or any state that joins would need to abandon their sovereignty in favour of the EU as a whole.

    The EU is just a collection of independant and sovereign countries working together for mutual interests. These interests naturally benefit the people as a whole, though sometimes go against the needs and/or wishes of a minority for the greater good. By its very nature it is not a union of citizens, and imo never should be.

    Nato, for example, is certainly a collection of independent and sovereign countries working together for mutual interests.

    The EU, in addition to that, has a Government, a parliament,a civil service, makes laws which all the member countries have to obey, wants a President, wants a foreign minister, has a national anthem, it's own judicial system, wants its own army, has its own currency, its own central bank, etc etc etc.

    Additionally, the majority of our laws are now made by the legislature in Brussels, (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56626268&postcount=223).

    It seems to be a little more than just a collection of independent states.


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    #364
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    auerillo wrote: »
    Additionally, the majority of our laws are now made by the legislature in Brussels, (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=56626268&postcount=223).
    As has been pointed out to you before, all of our laws are made by the legislature in Dublin.
    It seems to be a little more than just a collection of independent states.
    That doesn't make it an organisation of member citizens.


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    #365
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    molloyjh wrote: »
    Many No voters have replied in similar manners, i.e. one after the other. For example aurellio and djbarry are regular contributors and have often posted one after the other to a single post.
    :eek: Who changed my vote from 'Yes' to 'No'?!?


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    #366
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    djpbarry wrote: »
    :eek: Who changed my vote from 'Yes' to 'No'?!?

    Ooops, sorry about that! I got back in from Vegas on Saturday so was sufferring from a wee bit of jet lag!


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    #367
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    ...this, on the other hand, is sliding rapidly back towards the "have the cake and eat it" position. Their governments voted Yes, and that's the way they ratify things.

    No like I have no problem with that. I was just trying to say that the government ratifying the treaty doesnt automatically mean the people (the country imo) want it.

    I hate the "have the cake and eat it" crew, and I hate being associated with them by also having voted no.


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