Cycling article in the Irish Times

cantalach

irlirishkev wrote: »

True. I remember getting sick of getting soaked everytime I got on my bike last year. This year, I've only gotten wet a few times.

Are you guys just engaging in some ironic banter here or what? The last figure I heard (after the main evening news about a week or so back) was that Dublin had received in excess of 450% of its normal rainfall this summer! Limerick, Clare and North Kerry were also off the scale. This evening here is Cork is the first clear blue sky evening we've had for weeks, possibly months.

cantalach

cantalach wrote: »

Are you guys just engaging in some ironic banter here or what? The last figure I heard (after the main evening news about a week or so back) was that Dublin had received in excess of 450% of its normal rainfall this summer! Limerick, Clare and North Kerry were also off the scale. This evening here is Cork is the first clear blue sky evening we've had for weeks, possibly months.

Boardsies cycle in between the raindrops.

But yeah, I've been cycling to work all year and I haven't been horribly drenched on more than two or three occasions.

paintkaz

The idea that skirts are a hinderance to cycling is pure tosh. Most school uniforms allow/require some kind of thick tights so modesty is not a problem. My Granny, God rest her, Ma and me have all cycled in skirts, uniforms the lot. Cycling is still a liberating and figure enhancing activity for females, even if you aren't kitted up for the TOI on the way to school or whereever.
Getting on a wet saddle after a its been out in the rain all day however...

doozerie

I presume that one of the perceived hazards of wearing skirts is the attention it might draw from males (most likely). My wife has experienced this, although rarely - she is well able to ignore leers or comments, or give a cutting response, but school kids might be more intimidated by it. Ironically, my wife gets more hassle for wearing a day-glo backpack, which may just go to prove that there is little you can do to avoid the attention of gob****es.

irishmotorist

There were a few things that caught my eye in the article.

Actually, according to the European Cyclists' Federation, there are 100 million Europeans who ride each day

I do find this hard to believe. I seem to remember hearing that there's about 450 million EU people. If the quotee is talking about the EU, then it's 1/4 of the population of the EU. I don't know how much the rest of Europe contains though.

Cycling is not as dangerous as people think - the number of cycling fatalities is far less than it was 20 years ago

And...

doozerie wrote: »

I think that one of the major hurdles to more people cycling is the perceived danger of commuting by bicycle. People often ask me how dangerous I find my commute.

I think that cycling is as dangerous as the cyclist makes it, 95% of the time. The abandon of common sense that I see (and have been sometimes guilty of, of course) every day beggars belief. People undertaking left-turning cars, people squeezing between buses, people flying through red lights without looking - and that's not to mention the 'safe' breaking of a red light.
The answer to this has to be education. Be it in school, a TV ad campaign like the car one on how to overtake and turn right etc. or something else. I have learned from stupid things that I've inadvertently done and I haven't repeated them. Proactive advice on road positioning etc. would <to some degree> lessen the learning curve and stop people from having to make mistakes.

The British Medical Association agrees with the RSA's stance. However, Dr Ian Walker, a traffic psychologist at the University of Bath, found "wearing a helmet puts cyclists at risk" as motorists drive closer to those wearing helmets. He used an ultrasonic distance sensor to record data that showed drivers passed an average of 3.33 inches closer when the cyclist wore a helmet than without.

This is an interesting statistic and I'd love to read into it a bit further. I think a lot of us would agree that taking a somewhat aggressive, far-from-the-kerb line means that we get more room from the overtaking driver. I wonder if the people who wear helmets (and I am one of them) are typically less likely to be this type of 'aggressive' and cycle closer to the kerb, thereby meaning that they're given less room. I think there's more behind that stat, than the pure stat.

Victor

Verb wrote: »

A reasonable article that takes a fairly neutral stance on helmets and bike safety
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0828/1219680139697.html

DCC come across well, apart from their slightly odd focus on girls uniforms

It was one comment in a long document.

Stark

irishmotorist wrote: »

This is an interesting statistic and I'd love to read into it a bit further. I think a lot of us would agree that taking a somewhat aggressive, far-from-the-kerb line means that we get more room from the overtaking driver. I wonder if the people who wear helmets (and I am one of them) are typically less likely to be this type of 'aggressive' and cycle closer to the kerb, thereby meaning that they're given less room. I think there's more behind that stat, than the pure stat.

It was the same cyclist, sometimes cycling with a helmet and sometimes cycling without. He also wore a wig on a few occasions and drivers gave him much more room as they thought he was a chick

There are quite a few other interesting pieces in his report, one of them confirming what I've often experienced with bus drivers:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-09/uob-wah091106.php

Gavin

Victor wrote: »

It was one comment in a long document.

I didn't pick it out for no reason. In the DCC submission to the National Cycling Policy document, 11 Dec 2007, the second sentance is related to girls, cycling and skirts. I find that bizarre frankly. Where is the research to backup these statements?

Luckily it seems that the combined Cycling Campaigns seem to be able to focus on more important issues; the skirt issue is somewhat relegated to a minor paragraph in the joint policy document.

Stark

Fortunately they've invented a new type of bicycle that allows girls to ride it whilst wearing skirts.

irishmotorist

Stark wrote: »

It was the same cyclist, sometimes cycling with a helmet and sometimes cycling without. He also wore a wig on a few occasions and drivers gave him much more room as they thought he was a chick

There are quite a few other interesting pieces in his report, one of them confirming what I've often experienced with bus drivers:

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2006-09/uob-wah091106.php

I didn't realise it was the same guy, though it stands to reason that it would be (as well as being said in the article).

The idea that helmeted cyclists are more experienced and less likely to do something unexpected would explain why drivers leave less space when passing.

This is an interesting reasoning on why motorists may drive closer to helmetted cyclists. My initial reaction was that drivers don't differentiate that way. However, thinking about it for a minute, when I'm driving, I'll evaluate every scenario, driver, cyclist and pedestrian on how they're behaving and likely to behave. If I see someone going very slowly I'll probably give them a wider berth than somebody down on tri-bars, booting along. This is because I'd be trying to anticipate if anything unexpected might happen.

That said, I wouldn't consider the passing of 2500 cars to be totally conclusive. That might be equivalent to into and out of work in one day for me and I can say that some days are very different to other days.

blorg

That's pretty radical Stark, looks like they have done something to the crossbar? Wedged it down somehow or something. Is that even UCI legal?

doozerie

irishmotorist wrote: »

That said, I wouldn't consider the passing of 2500 cars to be totally conclusive. That might be equivalent to into and out of work in one day for me and I can say that some days are very different to other days.

In fact, if I remember rightly, when this study was reported in Cycling Plus several months back, the the guy himself was quoted as saying that the study couldn't be considered conclusive for this very reason of being on too small a scale. As such, it provides food for thought only and a more comprehensive study would be required before any real conclusions could be drawn.

petethedrummer

irishmotorist wrote: »

The answer to this has to be education. Be it in school, a TV ad campaign like the car one on how to overtake and turn right etc. or something else.

I don't really agree with the notion that the government should have to teach us how to ride bikes. We all know you're supposed to stop at a red light...not squeeze between buses...etc. its just here there is a more relaxed attitude towards rules. They could run 24 hour ad on the tv about the danger of breaking red lights and cyclists here would still break red lights. Its a cultural thing. The Danish cyclists obey they lights.

Same goes for cars at amber lights. People here see it as a sign to speed up when you're supposed to slow down. Same goes for jay-walking. If you go to Germany pedestrians wait for the lights to change to green before walking, even if there's nothing coming for miles.

I'm not sure how a cultural shift towards safer cycling/driving would happen. Maybe its from other cyclists setting a good example. E.g. stopping at red lights even though you feel like a bit of a kn0b while everyone else flies past. It might encourage a few others to stop also. Or the wearing a helmet(if you think they're necessary) even though you feel like a spanner. or telling another cyclist he/she's behaving like a kn0b when they do something stupid.

Húrin

I think the perception that cycling is dangerous keeps a lot of people away from it, especially in Dublin. I think that besides Dame ST, Westmoreland St and Dolier St, most streets in Dublin city are safe. I've been cycling to other cities too and it made me see just how safe Dublin is!

Why is Dublin perceived to be so dangerous for cycling?

Raam

petethedrummer wrote: »

I don't really agree with the notion that the government should have to teach us how to ride bikes. We all know you're supposed to stop at a red light...not squeeze between buses...etc. its just here there is a more relaxed attitude towards rules. They could run 24 hour ad on the tv about the danger of breaking red lights and cyclists here would still break red lights. Its a cultural thing. The Danish cyclists obey they lights.

It's not so much to teach us, but to remind us.
The amount of stupid stuff I see people do on bikes all the time is amazing. Some people clearly do not know that they really shouldn't squeeze in between buses or go up the left of a vehicle indicating left, to name but two obvious ones.

seamus

You would be surprised at the amount of people who *actually* think that red lights, pedestrian crossings, one-way streets, and so on, don't apply to cyclists. There were a number of occasions when I was a teenager of motorists and truckers screaming at us to cycle on the path.

In fact, half of the time when I tell people that my commute only takes 30 minutes, the response is, "Ah yeah no wonder, sure you don't have to stop at red lights."

...

petethedrummer

seamus wrote: »

You would be surprised at the amount of people who *actually* think that red lights, pedestrian crossings, one-way streets, and so on, don't apply to cyclists....

I doubt that very much. I'm sure they know that strictly speaking all those laws apply but that as a cyclist nothing's ever gonna happen if you break them. So people do.

olaola

Stark... I WANT a bike like this.

I live near town, so I just want one that I can mooch about on with a basket for d'shoppin! Can someone tell me where I can get a granny bike!?
I also have a problem with mod-ren bikes where the handle bars are a similar height as the saddle - I wear glasses, so I get a creak in my neck trying to see where I'm bleedin going!

seamus

petethedrummer wrote: »

I doubt that very much. I'm sure they know that strictly speaking all those laws apply but that as a cyclist nothing's ever gonna happen if you break them. So people do.

That's true in a lot of cases, but never underestimate ignorance.

There are thousands upon thousands of people on our roads who've never read the rules of the road, and who've never taken a lesson, and who "know" how to drive based on what they've seen everyone else do. The same goes for a lot of cyclists. So they see cyclists going through lights and they assume that's OK.

Stark

olaola wrote: »

Stark... I WANT a bike like this.

I live near town, so I just want one that I can mooch about on with a basket for d'shoppin! Can someone tell me where I can get a granny bike!?
I also have a problem with mod-ren bikes where the handle bars are a similar height as the saddle - I wear glasses, so I get a creak in my neck trying to see where I'm bleedin going!

Cyclesuperstore have plenty of bikes that sound like the kind you're looking for under their "ladies city bikes" section. Sometime like this perhaps?

http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=39&idproduct=17898

olaola

Stark wrote: »

Cyclesuperstore have plenty of bikes that sound like the kind you're looking for under their "ladies city bikes" section. Sometime like this perhaps?

http://www.cyclesuperstore.ie/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=39&idproduct=17898

Cheers! That's exactly the kind of bike I'm looking for. We used the Velib bikes in Paris and thought it was a great way to get around. Any word on them appearing over here!? I've seen a good few of the hoardings go up.

kenmc

olaola wrote: »

Cheers! That's exactly the kind of bike I'm looking for. We used the Velib bikes in Paris and thought it was a great way to get around. Any word on them appearing over here!? I've seen a good few of the hoardings go up.

Oh crap, the worms are getting out again!:rolleyes:

Stark

The worms just in case you're wondering:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055329822
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055058730

Mid next year for the bikes, if we're lucky. I'm not going to be holding my breath tbh.

rflynnr

petethedrummer wrote: »

I'm not sure how a cultural shift towards safer cycling/driving would happen. Maybe its from other cyclists setting a good example. E.g. stopping at red lights even though you feel like a bit of a kn0b while everyone else flies past. It might encourage a few others to stop also.

I've pondered on the question of the cultural shift for a while. To my own surprize I find myself leaning towards an authoritarian solution. Cyclists by and large are not treated as serious road users by other road users. However, most cyclists, (and I've commuted in Dublin city virtually every day for 15 years and so am one myself) do not behave in a manner that would earn the right to be treated as serious (cycling without lights in the dark, ignoring red lights, horsing down paths etc.). However, it strikes me that such behaviour has only become a norm in a context where those legally charged with enforcing the law - i.e. the Guardai - routinely ignore illegal behaviour on the part of cyclists. My impression (and it is only that) is that you'd have to pull a wheelie into oncoming traffic before most Guards would feel compelled to address the situation. Surely it's worth at least exploring the idea that consistent and meaningful application of existing road traffic laws to cyclists might modify cyclist behaviour and lead in turn to a shift in their perceived status by other road users.

(In this regard, consider the impact of the smoking ban, introduction of levy on plastic bags in supermarkets, as other examples of successful "cultural" shifts.)

Stark

rflynnr wrote:

However, it strikes me that such behaviour has only become a norm in a context where those legally charged with enforcing the law - i.e. the Guardai - routinely ignore illegal behaviour on the part of cyclists. My impression (and it is only that) is that you'd have to pull a wheelie into oncoming traffic before most Guards would feel compelled to address the situation. Surely it's worth at least exploring the idea that consistent and meaningful application of existing road traffic laws to cyclists might modify cyclist behaviour and lead in turn to a shift in their perceived status by other road users.

The Gardaí have a laissez-faire attitude to road users in general, not just cyclists. I see people do unbelievable things in full view of both marked and unmarked cars and the Gardaí don't pay a blind bit of attention. You'd need to run over some granny with a souped up exhaust then reverse over her for good measure to get them to notice. Sure, the occasional motorist will get done for driving in the bus lane or whatever, just as the occasional cyclist will get done for running a red light. 99.99% of the time they'll get away with it.

BostonB

72hundred wrote: »

Personally I believe the biggest obstacle to seeing cycling take off as it should in Dublin/Ireland is the lack of changing facilities at the destination.

During the winter I'd travel in ANY weather and for a long distance if I knew there was a hot shower and a locker waiting for me a work. It would be great! I can't imagine either that a small changing room and shower can be that difficult to offer (-just build it in the car park, they won't need all the spaces anyway! )

We have a shower but it so awkward to use as you have to get a key from someone who isn't there a lot and its at the other end of the building. So we just use the bathroom, usually the accessible/wheel chair one as it usually is bigger, and has a sink and a mirror. Bigger problem for us is where to leave your clothes, shoes, especially if they are wet and sweaty. Drying your runners is a problem. Someone has overshoes which they reckon solves that problem. I find keeping a bag of clothes at work is the easiest thing.

BostonB

hunnymonster wrote: »

We get a lot more rain here in Cork than I was used to in Dublin but it's still not a deterrent to cycling. You can fit a full change of clothes in a small backpack. We're heading into my first winter in the Cork commuter belt and I am actually concerned about cycling here in the dark on the small twisty roads.

This was my first summer commuting 2/3 times a week on a bike in many years. Most of the time it didn't rain. Light showers and misty rain I didn't really notice much. But I'd say I had a bout 4 or 5 days where I was just washed out of it. Mind you on really bad days I chickened out. Mainly because I didn't have the gear for it. So I only got caught on the way home. I'll have to learn as I go in the winter. I'm undecided to go with panniers intead of the rucksack, or just even lighter.

monument

Verb wrote: »

A reasonable article that takes a fairly neutral stance on helmets and bike safety

Thank you.

Myth wrote: »

I did find it annoying reading it with all the references to here & there given they were talking about Copenhagen one minute (here) and then Ireland the next (here).

While I couldn't have edited the quotes, I now see one or two places where I could have used a replacement for using here outside quote marks.

Húrin

BostonB wrote: »

This was my first summer commuting 2/3 times a week on a bike in many years. Most of the time it didn't rain. Light showers and misty rain I didn't really notice much. But I'd say I had a bout 4 or 5 days where I was just washed out of it. Mind you on really bad days I chickened out. Mainly because I didn't have the gear for it. So I only got caught on the way home. I'll have to learn as I go in the winter. I'm undecided to go with panniers intead of the rucksack, or just even lighter.

I couldn't recommend pannier bags highly enough, they're great, especially if you regularly carry a fair bit of stuff. They aren't that expensive even, a decent pair starts at about €40.

jimmycrackcorm

I have a golden rule that applies to going through red lights etc and that is to do exactly what I would were I walking.