New Liverpool Stadium Is Likely To Be Off

Dub13

Mr Alan wrote: »

dub, i think you should infract yourself for OT posting!

Sush.....we may get away with it if nobody says anything.;)

Karmafaerie

Dub13 wrote: »

You cant just sign up for the PTS its a waiting list,you would be able to go to every home game on the PTS and for 55 pounds a year....plus ticket cost.Thats why its much better than a season ticket it costs much less.

Before Dub has to yellow card us all (:p), just wanted to ask, I can still use my fancard right?
They just stopped offering that for new customers.
I've been completely out of touch with the new changes due to personal reasons so far this season.

Mr Alan

yea you can

Karmafaerie

Coolio.
Cheers al.

Dub13

I think you can use the fancard for this season then the fancard is dead and its that membership lark all the way.

Now back on topic.....:)

Mr Alan

.....small club.


only joking

Karmafaerie

Everton had an average home attendance of 36,000 in the 05-06 season, which would be around 90% capacity (Wikifacts, so take with liberal salt pinches).

They obviously would benefit from a bigger stadium, but when Liverpool are talking about a 60,000 capacity raising to 70,000 and maybe even furthur in future, Everton would have no need of it.

The 55,000 capacity stadium they're planning would be perfect for their needs.

Not saying it as a slight or anything, just a fact.
They wouldn't attract the same level of supporters or daytrippers.
Also Because of the name Liverpool has, a lot of away fans will travel to Anfield, that wouldn't be as attracted to a game in Goodison.

leninbenjamin

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Not saying it as a slight or anything, just a fact.

an irrelevant fact. it should have little to no bearing on whether to groundshare or not. it doesn't matter that Everton wouldn't fill it every week, all that matters is that a stadium is built with pooled resources and fulfilling the fundamental need of both clubs, which is a larger stadium and a stadium with much more corporate seating.

the only possible issue that might come from having a stadium with excess capacity is extra maintenance costs. but frankly it's fairly easy to design something that will satisfy both clubs immediate needs and keep costs down. the obvious thing might be to design a stadium with two tiers on three of the sides, and only open the tiers as needed. and secondly housing the two clubs in one stadium will reduce the costs for the respective clubs anyway.

gixerfixer

Cant believe people here would seriously think the greatest and most successful football club ever to play the game in britain would ever share a ground with a club as small as Everton. The facts of this are the vast majority of Liverpool and Everton fans would fight tooth and nail against any such plan. The idea will never come to light. Silly discussion TBH.

gixerfixer

leninbenjamin wrote: »

goingback to the ground sharing thing; Everton's average attendance this year is about 4k short of filling the stadium. Liverpool's average attendance this year is about 2k short of filling the stadium. the difference between the repspective stadia capacity is less than 5k.

can someone please provide a rationale reason why these clubs aren't capable of ground sharing when they are both desperately crying out for new modern facilities and an increased capacity?

p.s. the answer has nothing to do with filling the ground on a weekly basis. no stadium in the world does this; in fact most don't even come close and still make a healthy profit.

What are you on about? Liverpool have sold out every home game this season and the fact of the matter is that they could fill the stadium twice over for most home games this season. The reason they are a few short of capacity in a couple of games is security reasons not fans not going. Everton just cant sell out Goodison for home games because they dont have the support within the city and on a worldwide basis. Ask a kid on the streets of Rio or Baghdad who Liverpool are and they will be able to tell you most of the time..ask the same question about Everton and they will look at you and scratch their head.

Third_Echelon

Daemonic wrote: »

The fact Everton season tickets are available on their website (must clear that from my internet history, imagine the shame) and there is a waiting list measured in years for Liverpool season tickets is as good an indication as any of the difference in support.

Why should season ticket sales be an indication of club support? It says to me that there is a different type of support and a different ticket buying culture among Everton fans than there is to Liverpool fans. We still have good attendances for Premier league games.

I don't buy a season ticket as it would be a waste for me as I can't go every week, so I'm in the evertonia supporters club, which gives me 2 weeks advance on general sale, so I can get a ticket for any game pretty much. It seems to be the way a lot of Everton fans buy their tickets...

Again cost is a big thing for fans... 1 adult and 2 kids for season tickets at everton is going to cost you £550 + £280 + £280 = £1,110 (which is a lot of cash for the average family). This 1 adult and 2 kids trend seems to be pretty common at most games I've been at with regards to demographics. I'm not sure about the average Liverpool fans demographics... Mostly individuals perhaps? I don't know?

Our official capacity is 40,157. 3-4,000 of these seats have obstructed views and generally only sell for the big games. So for the sake of argument, lets say goodison's capacity is 37,500. Our premier league attendances this season have been 38,675 and 34,418.

07/08 average for premier league 37,000
06/07 average for premier league 37,000
05/06 average for premier league 37,000
03/04 average for premier league 37,000

So you can see we do have a constant level of support. We wouldn't be considering moving to a bigger stadium if the demand for improved facilities and capacity wasn't there.

Mr Alan wrote: »

i would prefer to continue to lag behind Chelsea and Utd while playing in Anfield than to share a ground with Everton.

<snip>

Bitter much?

You obviously have the best interests of your club at heart.

leninbenjamin wrote: »

well maybe crap was the wrong word, but in fairness there's absolutely no logical reason for it other than simple fan rivalry, with i don't think is a good enough reason to add an extra hundred million of debt to the club (and not to mention the potential turnover lost due to the inaction on the stadium). I just think that it's another example of fans passions actually working against the interests of the club.

Have to agree... Its gets in the way of a lot of these decisions. If you take a step back and take a look at the bigger picture, I reckon most fans would share our view leninbenjamin.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

<snip>

If Liverpool had a capacity of 60,000, it would sell out a dozen times a year.
If Everton had a capacity of 60,000, it would sell out twice a year.

In a ground sharing set-up, the only games that everton would sell out in an average season, would still only have 30,000 Toffies in the stadium!

If you see my figures from above I can't understand where your 30,000 figure comes from?

Karmafaerie wrote: »

<snip>
Not saying it as a slight or anything, just a fact.
They wouldn't attract the same level of supporters or daytrippers.
Also Because of the name Liverpool has, a lot of away fans will travel to Anfield, that wouldn't be as attracted to a game in Goodison.

I'm just wondering where you are getting all this great info from?

Everton's away supporter section usually sells out. Very rarely have I not seen good away support at an Everton game. Club's hardcore fans will travel to away games no matter who they are playing....

gixerfixer

Mr Alan wrote: »

i would prefer to continue to lag behind Chelsea and Utd while playing in Anfield than to share a ground with Everton.

I know i'll be in the minority there.

but i dont think that'll happen, i think either the americans will get the finance together for the new stadium, or they will sell to someone who can afford it.

I dont think you are in a minority there at all. I've been to Anfield twice this year and i know for a fact Liverpool fans will never agree to a groundshare with Everton and most everton fans are of the same mind. Most real fans would happily lag behind Man U and Chelsea for a while instead of a groundshare. The facts remain the yanks will sell up sooner rather than later and we will stay at Anfield until we move into our own new stadium. Everton will move into the tesco bowl and that will be that.

Third_Echelon

gixerfixer wrote: »

What are you on about? Liverpool have sold out every home game this season and the fact of the matter is that they could fill the stadium twice over for most home games this season. The reason they are a few short of capacity in a couple of games is security reasons not fans not going. Everton just cant sell out Goodison for home games because they dont have the support within the city and on a worldwide basis. Ask a kid on the streets of Rio or Baghdad who Liverpool are and they will be able to tell you most of the time..ask the same question about Everton and they will look at you and scratch their head.

So Everton don't have support in Liverpool? I've heard it all now!

How many times a year to the 'Baghdad Liverpool Supporters Club' make the trip to Anfield?

gixerfixer

Third_Echelon wrote: »

So Everton don't have support in Liverpool? I've heard it all now!

How many times a year to the 'Baghdad Liverpool Supporters Club' make the trip to Anfield?

Are you trying to tell me Everton have even half the support in the city of Liverpool as LFC do?

Third_Echelon

gixerfixer wrote: »

Are you trying to tell me Everton have even half the support in the city of Liverpool as LFC do?

Yes... Have you ever been to Liverpool?

Dub13

I am not doubting you Third_Echelon as I have never been to Goodison,but 3-4,000 obstructed view seats seems very high.

leninbenjamin

gixerfixer wrote: »

What are you on about? Liverpool have sold out every home game this season and the fact of the matter is that they could fill the stadium twice over for most home games this season. The reason they are a few short of capacity in a couple of games is security reasons not fans not going.

well it doesn't say that on the sites that give the stats

gixerfixer wrote: »

Everton just cant sell out Goodison for home games because they dont have the support within the city and on a worldwide basis.

hehe, you'll happily point out the security arrangements but also happily ignore the few thousand or so seats at Goodison with restricted views?

gixerfixer wrote: »

Ask a kid on the streets of Rio or Baghdad who Liverpool are and they will be able to tell you most of the time..ask the same question about Everton and they will look at you and scratch their head.

doesn't mean Everton can't grow, which is why you'd build them a new stadium in the first place. extra turnover leading to some higher profile players and finally push for that European spot, no reason why in the future people wouldn't know of them just like they know of the once successful team who live off past glories

edit: Dub13, looking at some photos of Goodison i think the number might actually be true. pillars everywhere.

Bluetonic

Dub13 wrote: »

I am not doubting you Third_Echelon as I have never been to Goodison,but 3-4,000 obstructed view seats seems very high.

10% or 4,000 seats are sold at reduce prices due to being badly obstructed. The figure where seats are even mildly obstructed would be higher.

The upper Bullens and upper Gwladys after the first couple of rows nearly even seat is obstructed mildly.

The main stand, it being the first triple decker stand in a British stadium, is held up by two very wide steel pieces which cause partial obstruction to all seats behind.

The last 5/6 rows of the lower Bullens and lower Gwladys are obstructed by the floor of the upper levels. It's possible to only see the ball once it's less than 5 meters or so off the ground.

The Park end of 6,000 capacity is the only stand with no obstructed views.

Ask any away fan who's been in the away section of Woodison what the views are like. They go there because of the atmosphere not cause of being able to see the game.

Bluetonic

gixerfixer wrote: »

Are you trying to tell me Everton have even half the support in the city of Liverpool as LFC do?

I've hear it all now.

There is absolutely no denying that within the city of Liverpool there is a far greater support of Everton than Liverpool.

By all means have the debate about the stadium but don't throw in silly uneducated statements about the people of the city of Liverpool.

gixerfixer wrote: »

Everton will move into the tesco bowl and that will be that.

This really stands out as saying something you know very little about. If you think the Tesco development will get the go ahead you've little knowledge about it.

Third_Echelon

Bluetonic wrote: »

10% or 4,000 seats are sold at reduce prices due to being badly obstructed. The figure where seats are even mildly obstructed would be higher.

The upper Bullens and upper Gwladys after the first couple of rows nearly even seat is obstructed mildly.

The main stand, it being the first triple decker stand in a British stadium, is held up by two very wide steel pieces which cause partial obstruction to all seats behind.

The last 5/6 rows of the lower Bullens and lower Gwladys are obstructed by the floor of the upper levels. It's possible to only see the ball once it's less than 5 meters or so off the ground.

The Park end of 6,000 capacity is the only stand with no obstructed views.

Ask any away fan who's been in the away section of Woodison what the views are like. They go there because of the atmosphere not cause of being able to see the game.

I love the 'Grand Old Lady', but the amount of restricted views is a right pain in the arse!

I generally go to the Park End or lower main stands....

Dub13

leninbenjamin wrote: »

well it doesn't say that on the sites that give the stats

If you don't believe us just have a read of the tickets threads for each game on Irishkop,don't mind what the stats say I now lads who were on the look out for tickets for each home game and could not get them via the club as they were sold out.

Middlesborough Tickets

Standard Liege

No point in putting up a thread on the Utd game as we all know it would sell out ten times over.

Stoke Tickets

Bluetonic

Just looking at a few post regarding the 28k attendance last Thursday for the UEFA cup game.

It's quite hard for a fan base from one of the poorest parts of the UK to cough up for games outside of their season tickets. Obviously Liverpool have no problems filling their stadium considering a vast amount of their attending fans are far removed from the economic situation in the city of Liverpool.

Of course some of that statement might not be true, but as far as I can see the thread has been a discussion based on emotion and very little fact. There are probably some people on this thread who understand the workings of the city of Liverpool, Everton football Club, and Liverpool football club but I doubt anyone will be unbiased enough to discuss the subject intelligently.

As an Everton fan I don't care for the goings on of those from across the park, why would I? Why would they care about us? I don't know, but a lot seem to.

There is a lovely little quote I came across recently from that Liverpool great Bill Shankly. Upon his retirement from the Anfield bootroom, Shankly was all but cut off by the club, this is what he had to say about it: "I have not been short of invitations to other clubs and have been received more warmly by Everton than I have by Liverpool."

In the words of a Liverpudlian, "Liverpool Football Club - The Peoples club.....my arse" :rolleyes:

Third_Echelon

Dub13 wrote: »

If you don't believe us just have a read of the tickets threads for each game on Irishkop,don't mind what the stats say I now lads who were on the look out for tickets for each home game and could not get them via the club as they were sold out.

Middlesborough Tickets

Standard Liege

No point in putting up a thread on the Utd game as we all know it would sell out ten times over.

Stoke Tickets

Need to sign-up for that site before you can read the threads... I don't think I will. Don't want my computer to become infected

Dub13

Third_Echelon wrote: »

Need to sign-up for that site before you can read the threads... I don't think I will. Don't want my computer to become infected

Sorry I forgot the Tickets and Travel forum is set so only members can read it,the jest of the point anyway is every game sells out on the phones and on line when it goes to general sale.

The attendance figures can be taken whatever way you want but I can asure you for most games if you are not season ticket holder or PTS member its hell trying to get tickets for Liverpool games.And the incompetent ticket office does not help.

Mr Alan

Bluetonic wrote: »

There is absolutely no denying that within the city of Liverpool there is a far greater support of Everton than Liverpool.

nonsense.

back it up with one "fact".

how many people lined the streets of Liverpool when we won the CL in 2005?

as TE said, it doesnt make sense for out of town fans to buy season tickets as they wont be able to go every week. using that same train of thought, if Everton have a "far greater support" in Liverpool, how come i can buy a season ticket now online?

or if i buy get one if i sign a certain mobile phone contract get one? but yet Liverpool have a 20 odd year waiting list? how come we sell out our midweek CL qualifier games? where as yous have 15 odd thousand empty seats when the tickets are being sold at reduced prices?

I have nothing but common sense to back it up, but i would imagine there is quite a lot more Liverpool fans in the city of Liverpool than there is Everton fans.

Hobart

Mr Alan wrote: »

nonsense.

back it up with one "fact".

how many people lined the streets of Liverpool when we won the CL in 2005?

as TE said, it doesnt make sense for out of town fans to buy season tickets as they wont be able to go every week. using that same train of thought, if Everton have a "far greater support" in Liverpool, how come i can buy a season ticket now online?

or if i buy get one if i sign a certain mobile phone contract get one? but yet Liverpool have a 20 odd year waiting list? how come we sell out our midweek CL qualifier games? where as yous have 15 odd thousand empty seats when the tickets are being sold at reduced prices?

I have nothing but common sense to back it up, but i would imagine there is quite a lot more Liverpool fans in the city of Liverpool than there is Everton fans.

Hmmmm I dunno. I've been to Liverpool about 70 times, and to away games about 50 times. I also worked in Chester and Liverpool (for a short time) and I would tend to agree that the city of Liverpool would be more blue than red. I have no facts to back this up, just a general impression I get from being around the place.

I've been in Goodison for 2 derby games, and the restricted views are a reality, it's not a very well designed stadium (although it's location in Liverpool is very similar to Anfield).

Because of the huge gulf in terms of success of both teams, Liverpool are the more popular team, and certainly would attract more fans outside of Liverpool than the toffees, but it would be my opinion, that the city is a little bit more blue than red, but it matters sfa tbh.

Dub13

I think we can leave this there are more red/blue fans in Liverpool because simply their is no way to tell everybody is expressing an opinion and thats all it is.What we need is this to be a question on the next census forums in the city.

citytillidie

Bluetonic wrote: »

Just looking at a few post regarding the 28k attendance last Thursday for the UEFA cup game.

It's quite hard for a fan base from one of the poorest parts of the UK to cough up for games outside of their season tickets. Obviously Liverpool have no problems filling their stadium considering a vast amount of their attending fans are far removed from the economic situation in the city of Liverpool.

Of course some of that statement might not be true, but as far as I can see the thread has been a discussion based on emotion and very little fact. There are probably some people on this thread who understand the workings of the city of Liverpool, Everton football Club, and Liverpool football club but I doubt anyone will be unbiased enough to discuss the subject intelligently.

As an Everton fan I don't care for the goings on of those from across the park, why would I? Why would they care about us? I don't know, but a lot seem to.

There is a lovely little quote I came across recently from that Liverpool great Bill Shankly. Upon his retirement from the Anfield bootroom, Shankly was all but cut off by the club, this is what he had to say about it: "I have not been short of invitations to other clubs and have been received more warmly by Everton than I have by Liverpool."

In the words of a Liverpudlian, "Liverpool Football Club - The Peoples club.....my arse" :rolleyes:

Tickets for the UEFA Cup game last week were cheaper than tickets for Liverpools Carling Cup game V Crewe for tomorrow night

Mr Alan

Bluetonic, just on that Shankly quote....are you aware of the context it was said in? just out of curiousity?

it was after Lhe had left Liverpool, and he was finding it difficult to cut his ties, he was turning up to training every day in his gear and all, Paisley and his other mates asked him not to. Obviously its not a nice thing but it had to be done.

i'd prefer to remember a couple of his other quotes;

"there is only 2 clubs in this city, Liverpool and Liverpools reserves"

or

"if Everton were playing in my back garden.....i'd close the curtains"

Bluetonic

Mr Alan wrote: »

nonsense.
back it up with one "fact".

Seriously what sort of "fact" can be produced to back that up? It's a common knowledge in and around the city, 20 years of my experiences and many more years of others both blue and red from these isles will tell you that.

Mr Alan wrote: »

how many people lined the streets of Liverpool when we won the CL in 2005?

I'm not sure, load probably. Not sure whats this has got to do with anything? I was on the streets of Liverpool when the 3 trophies were paraded in 2001, I'd been at the Everton v Sunderland game that weekend. Am I counted as a red?

Mr Alan wrote: »

if Everton have a "far greater support" in Liverpool, how come i can buy a season ticket now online?

There are 28,000 odd season ticket holders, leaving around 10,000 'unsold' seats as season tickets. We know 4,000 of these are severely obscured as per previous posts and the majority of the remaining 6,000 have some sort of minor obscurity. Would you pay 500GBP for a seat in a stadium where you can't see the event in comfort and your already one of the poorest people in the country? Couple this with the running of the club since early 1990s (I won't go into it, it's all in the public domain) and the number of people who refuse to buy a season ticket when Kirby is still on the agenda and Bull**** Bill is still at the helm then you might start to get your head around it.

Please don't come back with any requests for a "fact" or anything like that, it stinks of someone who's struggling to come to terms with adult life and can't take a discussion at face value. I have absolutely nothing to gain by spending an evening making up rubbish.

Have a read of one of the premier league fan surveys like the 2003/2004 Season if you want loads of facts. Some are that Everton supporters are some of the poorest in the county and come from the lowest social standings, Everton fans travel less distance than Liverpool fans to home games, more Everton fans walk to games than Liverpool fans, higher amount of Everton fans living within 20 miles of the ground then Liverpool fans, less time take to travel to home games by Everton fans than Liverpool fans... I could go on but I suppose the premier league survey can be interpreted in any number of ways :rolleyes: