How would you deal with a knife attack?

vasch_ro

normally i just call the guys with guns and get out of the way ! quickly!

cHaTbOx

tallaght01 wrote: »

Do martial arts ever use "scientific" research to back up what they're teaching.

Martial arts is not neccessarily a science, but surely we should have some way of reflecting on whether our techniques will actually work in real life?

Sorry had to shorten the post but yes martial arts does use "scientific" research to back up what they're teaching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0FaxVO2Sns

There's a documentart that on History channel called "fighting science".
I have seen a few of these.
Aikido has good technique to combat knite attack
but even the best fighter may have to lose a finger or for trying too survive a knife attack.
I was at a seminare once were they got someone in a white shirt and asked someone to attack them aimlessly with a plastic knife with lipstick on.they were dead by the end of it for sure.Best advice RUN,otherwise keep your distance from the knife.

Black Swan

No matter how much SD training you have, the odds are you will get cut, even if you win the encounter. So if you don't want to risk getting cut (or worse), the best policy is to run when on the street. Now if someone was foolish enough to try and force entry onto our boat at night, well, they better be packing something more than a knife...

Tim_Murphy

john kavanagh wrote: »

i once fought someone armed with a bald...wasnt fun

But you lived to tell the tale? :eek:

Dave Joyce

Some interesting points but obviously one of the best options IS to run but its been pointed out what if that is NOT an option and yet there are people totally ignoring that!!

There has been some good advice/training methods mentioned/discussed but one of the things that disturbs me a bit is the lack of mention of entries. Unless the guy with the knife is a bit of a dope or very hesitant in attacking, I would caution against going head long into attacking him, as I would with the notion of just grabbing the knife hand without any kind of entry/opportunity.

Finally while the chance of been attacked with a knife are still rare, in Galway (which is all I'm talking about right now, can't speak for the rest of the country) in the last 2 months there have been 4 serious knife attacks and these were just the ones that I know of and wouldn't include glassing, screwdrivers or other utinsils used as blades. One was a domestic, one was the usual knifing outside a fast food outlet, one was a row between two foreign nationals in their house and the last one was an attempted robbery in a house which resulted in the home owner (an elderly person) been stabbed when he came upon the scumbag and DIDN'T confront him. As regards the incidence of individuals carrying knifes I believe its a more widespread practise than thought.

Boru.

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Some interesting points but obviously one of the best options IS to run but its been pointed out what if that is NOT an option and yet there are people totally ignoring that!!

There has been some good advice/training methods mentioned/discussed but one of the things that disturbs me a bit is the lack of mention of entries. Unless the guy with the knife is a bit of a dope or very hesitant in attacking, I would caution against going head long into attacking him, as I would with the notion of just grabbing the knife hand without any kind of entry/opportunity.

Hi David, first off I'm sorry to hear about the incidents in Glaway. I'm sure we all have stories of a violent incident outdside, some where involving someone. I can list of several that have happened to friends of friends and one to two that have happened to me personally (one of the reasons I got into the whole RB side of things). While these things are certainly unpleasent, it's memorable because of it's rareity, or at least I hope so. Again, while yes I agree there is mnore than reported I don't think it's reached the epidemic or common level some seem to project.

As for the question of entries they have been mentioned, although briefly by both myself and Odysseus. Criminal wepaon deployment is rarely straigh up and honest. Most often blades are concelaed, and deployed rapidly, in blind spot, from beyond, in crowded area's etc. Both Od and myself have been trained in a manner that very much makes one aware of typical ethnic and sociolpogical wepeon deployment.

However the reason I perosnally didn't focus on that here is becasue it is ultimately pointless. There are a near infinite amounts of situations and deployments possible. You CANNOT develop specific routines or techniques for each - in fact that is a huge problem both in TMA or RBSD. Teaching specific situational responses is niether practical nor realisitic. The advice I gave above follows principals designed to be applicable to any bladed weapon in any given cuircumstances. Hence it is non specific and can be incoperated in to any previous training background.

Martin25

Just a little nick in the right place can cut an artery so take care.

Ballisong

However the reason I perosnally didn't focus on that here is becasue it is ultimately pointless. There are a near infinite amounts of situations and deployments possible. You CANNOT develop specific routines or techniques for each

Boru, can you just clarify this point for me, are you saying that it's pointless to train entering on a knife guy because ,

1.Your not going to see them coming?
2.There's no way to how to recognise draw points?

Boru.

Ballisong wrote: »

Boru, can you just clarify this point for me, are you saying that it's pointless to train entering on a knife guy because ,

1.Your not going to see them coming?
2.There's no way to how to recognise draw points?

I think I understand your question but I do want to clarify one thing - WHY in the name of god are you "entering on a knife guy"? He has a knife. Run. Don't be there. Unless it is your dierct job to stop the guy with a knife and you work in law enfrocement you should not be "entering". I NEVER recommend taking on a guy with a knife. It is just plain dumb. I don't care if your Jack Bauer it's dumb.

As reagards your questions assuming you are attacked by someone with a knife, (not attacking someone who has a knife), if you read through my posts in this thread I have consistently recommended realistic knife defence training. I write extensively on the subject and teach a comprehensive course in it, so I do of course believe that one SHOULD train for a assault with a knife.

However such training in my opinion should be realistic. This means understanding clearly certain issues.

The first being that it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY you will be involved in a violent confrontation involving a bladed weapon. I believe I've discussed this clearly above.

With that said, and as Odysseus pointed out, and to which my comment refers, it is very unrealistic that someone intending to stab you or cut you, will infact walk up and say - "I have a knife, here it is, I'm going to cut you". Yes this does happen, particuarly in domestic situations, but then there are also a variety of precursors to such that should be paid attention to and hopefully a knife assault will be avoided.

Not many criminals will present you with a blade. If a knife is being used for intimidation, again it's pulled out in very close range not in a nice distance where you can clearly see where it is coming from.

Unfortunately few actually apply common sense to their knife training. A personal gripe of mine, in some TMA schools and in many blades systems, the techniques are very much, present attack, pause and counter. Present attack being the first problem. How many instructors actually teach realistic weapon deployment?

Realistic training means they may or may not have a knife and they or may not pull it. And they or may no be facing you at the time.

Most people intent on stabbing someone aren't stupid. They don't want you to see it coming becasue they don't want you to have the oppertunity to defend tehmselves. People with knives intent on doing you harm rarely act like James Bond villians and clearly expaling what they are going to do.

All I am saying is that situationally based or devised defences are unrealisitc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2T8vEqlTpg
This is funny, becasue it's true.

Apply principals and you help minimise the risk of serious or fatal injury. That's about it. No one wins a knife fight. It's not sparring. You most likely won't get away without getting badly injured or hurt. I teach damage limitation, how to reduce the risks of getting killed. That's all I go for, because if you f'd up enough to be attacked by a knife, then surviving it is a best case.

Fighting on it's own is very hard. It's not something I recommend. Fighting someone with a knife is near suicidal. Don't do it don't get involved. If you have absoultely no recourse and are forunate to see the blade coming, then there are principals and steps you can take to attempt to minimise the damage. If someone tells you they can teach you how to disarm a knife wielder be suspicious. If they tell you you can get away without injury be suspicious. If they tell you they can teach you to beat up someone with a knife intent on hurting you so you win, be very very very suspicious.

I leave disarming a knife weilding psycho trying to stick me to Jason Bourne and Hollywood. Which is fine, because I am not very likely to be attacked by a knife weilding maniac. And if I am on that extremely unlikely occasion, then I will use the principals that will give me the best chance of surviving, and not a set response that may or may not fit an attack.

You could spend the rest of your life studying a knife based art exclusively, all day everyday and learn every counter to every move, and still when you've had a few jars and you're pushing your way to the coat check through a tight sweaty mass of people in the local club, the asocial ass that you bumped into 2 hours earlier who took offense will just stick you as you push past. That's why I don't waste time learning dozens of complicated moves and sequences. In my opinion it's unrealistic. I just learn the principals that can be applied regardless of situation.

Again, I go into detail about this in the article. I'm not saying don't learn. Just apply commone sense and be realistic about what you are learning and why.

Ballisong

WHY in the name of god are you "entering on a knife guy"? He has a knife. Run. Don't be there. Unless it is your dierct job to stop the guy with a knife and you work in law enfrocement you should not be "entering". I NEVER recommend taking on a guy with a knife. It is just plain dumb. I don't care if your Jack Bauer it's dumb

Really? What if you find yourself in a situation where you are confronted with a bladed attacker and you are unable to escape, say your infant child is with you or your backed in to a corner are you really suggesting you just wait for him to attack you? Is the saying not, an offence is a good defence? If you do nothing but wait for him he is able to put 100% in to his attack making it far harder to defend. Where as if you can turn the tables and become the aggressor he has to think about defending himself and can not put everything he has in to his attack. I'm not saying it's easy to enter on a knife guy but you can't just start trading a blow for a puncture wound or a slash, now that's dumb. It's important to know how to enter safely and control your assailant securely before you can strike him, just grabbing the arm or the wrist anyway you like won't secure the blade, you need to know how to do that properly.

Unfortunately few actually apply common sense to their knife training. A personal gripe of mine, in some TMA schools and in many blades systems, the techniques are very much, present attack, pause and counter. Present attack being the first problem. How many instructors actually teach realistic weapon deployment?

Firstly, you can't just show someone a technique a few times have them repeat it a few more times and then ramp up the training to make it more realistic. It doesn't work like that no martial arts or RBSD systems do, at least not the good ones, it's like letting a beginner in Muay Thai spar on his first day. He doesn't have the correct responses ingrained in to his muscle memory to react correctly under pressure, also he'll still have his flinch reflexes because he's not used to an aggressive assailant coming at him hard and fast with a knife.

He needs to be shown the correct responses to an attack making sure he understands why he's doing what he's doing and then he needs to do a lot of repetitions of the move so it can be installed in to his muscle memory, then when it becomes his reaction you can make the training more realistic. Doing this to soon just means he's doing something half arsed at high intensity and will never make it a reaction and if you want to survive a blade encounter, which as you pointed out happens at a very close range,

again it's pulled out in very close range not in a nice distance where you can clearly see where it is coming from.

you need to have the correct reactionary responses as the movements are within your reactionary gap and will happen too fast to track with your eyes, so you also need to develop your tactile sensitivity, another good reason to get in lots of reps at a slower, training speed. These are just a few of the things that are developed by doing flow drills, which people who don't have a clue of what they are really for misconstrue and label them as a waste of time, it just shows their ignorance.

I'm curious to know how you train weapon deployment? We use a rigging system allowing us to holster many different blades on us while we train, so if a blade is dropped or stripped there's no pause in the training we just draw another blade, all the time tracking the different points of the body from which a weapon can be drawn. In my opinion and obviously I'm biased , this is the best way to train weapon deployment, retention and how to track the body mechanics of a weapon being drawn on you. I've not come across many other people who train this part of a blade encounter and would genuinely be interested in how you train it realisticly?

Most people intent on stabbing someone aren't stupid. They don't want you to see it coming becasue they don't want you to have the oppertunity to defend tehmselves. People with knives intent on doing you harm rarely act like James Bond villians and clearly expaling what they are going to do.

Very true but people can't appear out of nowhere and suddenly stab you, unless they are a ninja of course and are majik . If you suddenly find yourself being attacked out of the blue then you made a mistake earlier, you could of been day dreaming or deep in conversation either way just by being more aware of your surroundings and recognising a draw point should help prevent a such an attack.

You could spend the rest of your life studying a knife based art exclusively, all day everyday and learn every counter to every move, and still when you've had a few jars and you're pushing your way to the coat check through a tight sweaty mass of people in the local club, the asocial ass that you bumped into 2 hours earlier who took offense will just stick you as you push past. That's why I don't waste time learning dozens of complicated moves and sequences. In my opinion it's unrealistic. I just learn the principals that can be applied regardless of situation.

If your training correctly having a few beers in you shouldn't have a huge impact in how you fight, if it does you need to look at your training methods, unless your falling down drunk and then it's your own fault for getting in to that state and as I've said before that's a mistake you've made by not being aware of whats going on around you and not a flaw in your knife training. I've seen guys I know to be boxers and Thai fighters level guys on nights out with nice combinations while pissed. They were able to do it because they spent the time ingraining the moves on the pads, bags and shadow boxing, doing thousands of reps then when they were at the right level they tested what they had been shown under pressure by sparing and then by getting in the ring and fighting. Because of the time they spent doing those repetitions making those moves their reactionary responses they were able to do them and do them well while drunk. Weapon training is no different, other than being attacked with a knife is less common than being attacked by an empty hand assailant.

tallaght01

You know how a lof of people on this thread have talked about "entering" an attacker......

Well, to my mind, that has a whole other set of connotations :P

But, assuming we're not advocating buggery as a form of defence, what does it mean? Does it just mean to attack someone?

Ballisong

and teach a comprehensive course in it, so I do of course believe that one SHOULD train for a assault with a knife.

No offence but there are so many different variables when it comes to a bladed encounter how can you teach it all in a course. The different things that one should know, how do you choose what to teach?

For example you say

You most likely won't get away without getting badly injured or hurt. I teach damage limitation, how to reduce the risks of getting killed. That's all I go for, because if you f'd up enough to be attacked by a knife, then surviving it is a best case.

So do you teach the different "vital targets" on the body, how to defend each one and what effect they will have on you if you get cut there, are they a "timer", a wound that will bleed out if not treated, like the Femoral artery or a "switch" like the Brachial plexus which if you get a thrust there can end the mobility of the arm, how to survive the attack is this happens? If so do you show them how best to deal with the wounds if they've survived the attack so they can make their way to some medical treatment?

Do you introduce training modifiers in your realistic training, it's a far cry from doing all this in a hall wearing tracksuit bottoms and runners, do you make sure they can do it in their every day clothes as these can be sometimes more constricting then what they got used to training in? In a low light setting as it's very unlikely your going to get attacked in broad daylight and if so do you go through what tactile sensitivity is and develop it so they can function in this scenario? Do you restrict their movement, if they can't run away there may not be enough room to manoeuvre like they are used to and this could throw them off?
These are just a couple of the things we add to our training to make the drills we do more realistic not just amp up the intensity of the attack.

The list of things that need to be covered when dealing with a bladed weapon are huge, if your teaching a course in blade defence and telling the participants this will help them survive, albeit with wounds, doesn't all this stuff need to be covered, how can you fit all this in to a course, the first aid alone for knife wounds, in my opinion would be a course on it's own and is vital after being cut.

We all agree that your knife training needs to be realistic but can you say it is if it doesn't cover the few things I've mentioned and if it does how can you condence it all in to a course and still say you'll leave being able to deal with a bladed attack, this stuff needs constant direction from an instructor for it to be effective.

Ballisong

But, assuming we're not advocating buggery as a form of defence, what does it mean? Does it just mean to attack someone?

Not necessarily but in this instance I think that's what everyone is talking about.

chrischance

Yesterday, the 9th death by stabbing this year occurred within 10 miles of my home. There are a minimum of two blade crimes each day. Liverpool police have installed metal detector machines in the streets and carry detection wands around train stations and busy areas such as Concert Square and Mathew Street because stabbings have become a prevalent offence. I think 'Nonsense' isn't quite the right word to use around here.
Regards, Chris.

Boru.

Hi Ballisong,

Thank you for your lengthy and considered response. I am heartened to see that we agree on many of the overall points of practical knife defense. There are some points I would disagree on, but that is more of a philosophical disagreement than a practical one. I'll return the courtesy and address each point made.

Really? What if you find yourself in a situation where you are confronted with a bladed attacker and you are unable to escape, say your infant child is with you or your backed in to a corner are you really suggesting you just wait for him to attack you? Is the saying not, an offence is a good defence? If you do nothing but wait for him he is able to put 100% in to his attack making it far harder to defend. Where as if you can turn the tables and become the aggressor he has to think about defending himself and can not put everything he has in to his attack. I'm not saying it's easy to enter on a knife guy but you can't just start trading a blow for a puncture wound or a slash, now that's dumb. It's important to know how to enter safely and control your assailant securely before you can strike him, just grabbing the arm or the wrist anyway you like won't secure the blade, you need to know how to do that properly.

This is the problem with the solve this scenario style of questioning - it's pointless. I appreciate your point, but as you later say one should be aware and as such the above example should never occur. With that said I again return to the four principals I outlined much earleir. Grab or in your terminology as I understand it "enter", close distance, takedown and escape.

Again, from a pratical point of view I am not intereseted in securing the balde for longer than a few seconds, all I need is the time to breifly secure the arm, to takedown in what ever way I can at the time. Then I run. In my opinion, and the metropolitan police force among others agree with me here - you do not need to spend years practicing to grab someone's arm. You do it, I really don't care about intricate hand placement. It's impossible to do in a full on full speed conlfict. Particulalry if the opponent is covered in sweat, blood etc.

Therefore it is not a practical or efficent use of time.

Everyone can instinctively grab things when they need to. I've seen this time and time again. I've never ONCE in my experience, or in my instructor's experience ever have to show someone how to garb an arm. You reach out and grab it. Sometimes you miss. So do the best, you try again, close distance, takedown and run. It's not complex.

Firstly, you can't just show someone a technique a few times have them repeat it a few more times and then ramp up the training to make it more realistic. It doesn't work like that no martial arts or RBSD systems do, at least not the good ones, it's like letting a beginner in Muay Thai spar on his first day. He doesn't have the correct responses ingrained in to his muscle memory to react correctly under pressure, also he'll still have his flinch reflexes because he's not used to an aggressive assailant coming at him hard and fast with a knife.

He needs to be shown the correct responses to an attack making sure he understands why he's doing what he's doing and then he needs to do a lot of repetitions of the move so it can be installed in to his muscle memory, then when it becomes his reaction you can make the training more realistic. Doing this to soon just means he's doing something half arsed at high intensity and will never make it a reaction and if you want to survive a blade encounter, which as you pointed out happens at a very close range,

In your experience. The principals I and many others teach are not difficult to grasp. they do not require hours and hours and hours of fine motor coordination. As I said above most people know instinctively how to grab something. I don't have to spend 10 years training someone to do that.

The whole point of these principals is that YOU DO NOT rely on fine motor skills or highly developed neruological responses. Most know how to garb an arm. Most know how to step forward, most know how to trip someone and everyone knows how to run.

I remember quite clearly I taught 3 Gardai Siochanne this same technique last year during a bodyweight training session in the park. These people had little to know prior experience in martial arts. After 5 minutes each was already quite proficent in full speed full power drills. If you can't do it after 5 minutes it's too complex and a waste of time.

To summarise you don't have to spend years teaching people the skills they use everyday.

you need to have the correct reactionary responses as the movements are within your reactionary gap and will happen too fast to track with your eyes, so you also need to develop your tactile sensitivity, another good reason to get in lots of reps at a slower, training speed. These are just a few of the things that are developed by doing flow drills, which people who don't have a clue of what they are really for misconstrue and label them as a waste of time, it just shows their ignorance.

I'm curious to know how you train weapon deployment? We use a rigging system allowing us to holster many different blades on us while we train, so if a blade is dropped or stripped there's no pause in the training we just draw another blade, all the time tracking the different points of the body from which a weapon can be drawn. In my opinion and obviously I'm biased , this is the best way to train weapon deployment, retention and how to track the body mechanics of a weapon being drawn on you. I've not come across many other people who train this part of a blade encounter and would genuinely be interested in how you train it realisticly?

True to a degree. But you aren't grabbing a delciate object or reacting to it. You grab the arm. That's a much bigger target. In point of referecne though we do teach flow drills, and kinetic sensation response drills. Again, a decent profeicency that will have a significatny impact on your ability to survive is acheiveable quite quickly.

Will you be an expert at neruromuscular co-ordination no - but you don't need to be to increase your chances of survival and I have far better things to do with my life then train everyday for hours for a negligable return on time for an incident that in all probabllity will never occur.

I like the rigging system idea, that sounds cool, but is it realistic? How many cirminals will have a multiple knife rig on them? Are you conditioning unrealisitc response becasue of that. Why are you still engaging an opponent if they have dropped a knife? Why aren't you practicing running away very fast? Seriously, sprint training is a better option and better use of your time.

As regards our wepaon deployment training - we demonstrate the primary ethnic and social methods used, but at the end of that day there are only in all the different styles and methods 10 ways to stab or cut someone. Boil it down to the essentials and don't get hung up on individual little traits that ultimately don't effect the path of the blade. 10 that's it. If you can find another way to strike someone with a knife that isn't covered in those 10 I'll be incredibly impressed.

If your interested in how we train realistically, you're more than welcome to drop by next time I do a seminar on it. No charge.

Very true but people can't appear out of nowhere and suddenly stab you, unless they are a ninja of course and are majik . If you suddenly find yourself being attacked out of the blue then you made a mistake earlier, you could of been day dreaming or deep in conversation either way just by being more aware of your surroundings and recognising a draw point should help prevent a such an attack.

Couldn't agree more.

If your training correctly having a few beers in you shouldn't have a huge impact in how you fight, if it does you need to look at your training methods, unless your falling down drunk and then it's your own fault for getting in to that state and as I've said before that's a mistake you've made by not being aware of whats going on around you and not a flaw in your knife training. I've seen guys I know to be boxers and Thai fighters level guys on nights out with nice combinations while pissed. They were able to do it because they spent the time ingraining the moves on the pads, bags and shadow boxing, doing thousands of reps then when they were at the right level they tested what they had been shown under pressure by sparing and then by getting in the ring and fighting. Because of the time they spent doing those repetitions making those moves their reactionary responses they were able to do them and do them well while drunk. Weapon training is no different, other than being attacked with a knife is less common than being attacked by an empty hand assailant.

Yup, very ture a few beers shouldn't matter. See why I dislike specific scenario examples. Really I should know better. Again, ideally, if you see it coming all that is true, though I prefer to react with gross motor skills that I develop all day long living life. My point was even the best can get blind sided.

Personally I do not spend my life walking around in condition delta orange on the off chance that someone from a mysterious mountain tribe of assassins is trying to kill. I don't see why anyone else would either unless of course they are in a Dan Brown novel. Stargely the only people that claim to be super observant all the time are RB guys that have no clue about Reality and Martial Artists that think they're some kind of super cool ninja samurai thing.

And I disagree wtih the whole combination attack thing you mentioned - that's pretty unrealsitic too in my experience, but fair play to them I'm sure it looked very cool. I know I couldn't pull it off, but then again I would never need to thank god.

No offence but there are so many different variables when it comes to a bladed encounter how can you teach it all in a course. The different things that one should know, how do you choose what to teach?

None taken. ANd yes there are many many many variables - however they are all variations of certian specific principlas. These principals are what I teach. If you undertsand them then you can deal more effectively with the variables.

If you want you can spend you life teaching someone ever conceivable sentence in the English language - or you can teach them the basics of letters, and words, and grammer. That way while some may never become poets most can read. Same thing with knife training. 10 possible directions of attak are all you really need to worry about. And you can teach that VERY quickly. That's just one example.

So do you teach the different "vital targets" on the body, how to defend each one and what effect they will have on you if you get cut there, are they a "timer", a wound that will bleed out if not treated, like the Femoral artery or a "switch" like the Brachial plexus which if you get a thrust there can end the mobility of the arm, how to survive the attack is this happens? If so do you show them how best to deal with the wounds if they've survived the attack so they can make their way to some medical treatment?

Yup we do that. And we teach balde depth, induce shock etc. And yes we teach triage and first aid, both on yourself and for someone else. I also recommend full first aid training and certification.

Do you introduce training modifiers in your realistic training, it's a far cry from doing all this in a hall wearing tracksuit bottoms and runners, do you make sure they can do it in their every day clothes as these can be sometimes more constricting then what they got used to training in? In a low light setting as it's very unlikely your going to get attacked in broad daylight and if so do you go through what tactile sensitivity is and develop it so they can function in this scenario? Do you restrict their movement, if they can't run away there may not be enough room to manoeuvre like they are used to and this could throw them off?
These are just a couple of the things we add to our training to make the drills we do more realistic not just amp up the intensity of the attack.

Yep. Do all this. You should read over my previous posts on reality based training I cover all the above point in detail. You left out debris on the ground people can trip on, sounds, smell, break away clothing, crowds, etc.

The list of things that need to be covered when dealing with a bladed weapon are huge, if your teaching a course in blade defence and telling the participants this will help them survive, albeit with wounds, doesn't all this stuff need to be covered, how can you fit all this in to a course, the first aid alone for knife wounds, in my opinion would be a course on it's own and is vital after being cut.

Yes I agree completely. But it's not as huge as some make out. Again it comes back to the idea of principals vs incidents. As regards first aid etc. We do that, but again I recommend indepth training from a variety of first aid providers. We also cover the legal system, hostage situations, domestic disbutes and more. It's in my experience the most comprehenisve course currently available. And I've trained in a few.

We all agree that your knife training needs to be realistic but can you say it is if it doesn't cover the few things I've mentioned and if it does how can you condence it all in to a course and still say you'll leave being able to deal with a bladed attack, this stuff needs constant direction from an instructor for it to be effective.

I agree with the first half, and only partialy with the second. As mentioned above the course is very comprehensive and deals with all points mentioned above in detail, effectively and accurately. Again, this is why it has been adopted by major protections units, civilan programs, police etc.

As regards contstant direction - that's a VERY poor statment. Are you implying that you had have to stand over a student and walk them through an attack in porgress, ask the attacker to stop so you adjust they're hand position? Of course not. But if they require years of training and consant direction - how on earth will they ever be able to use that?

Be realistic. Apply common sense. Complicated technqiues, intricate disarms, flow and fients take years to master and apply, that's very true - it's an art from. I have no interest in making art a useful tool in saving my skin. I would much prefer to apply the skills I was raised knowing - ie how to grab things and use that to save my skin. It doesn't take long and it works in full contact, full speed, full power, full agression drills, much better and much quicker than the majority of the fine skills of MA.

If a technique requires as you say constant direction to be effective how applicable is that on the spur of the moment, in a 100,000 to one nightmare?

Simple answer - it's not.

Which is why I don't waste my time, my students or there money, teaching unrealistic stuff like that. I teach what works in the majority of cases against the majority of attacks. That's it. No more no less.

Boru.

chrischance wrote: »

Yesterday, the 9th death by stabbing this year occurred within 10 miles of my home. There are a minimum of two blade crimes each day. Liverpool police have installed metal detector machines in the streets and carry detection wands around train stations and busy areas such as Concert Square and Mathew Street because stabbings have become a prevalent offence. I think 'Nonsense' isn't quite the right word to use around here.
Regards, Chris.

Chirs, I am terribly sorry to hear about that. No one here means any offense to those involved in such tragedies. We all have I'm sure our own story to tell about a freind or someone we know, or a place we frequent incolved in such an incidnet. But it's important to remember that these are exceptions rather than the rule. No one here is saying it's nonsense, least of me. I just advise that one applies perspective and not take an unrealisitc view of the situation in both our and UK's society.

It may intrest you to note that both here and in the Uk the violent crime has dropped significatly in the last 3 years, including incidents of knife crime. While it certianly appears to be more prevelant, thankfully the actual incidents are becoming smaller.

This in no way detracts from the tragedy of such incidents occuring.

Ballisong

Again, from a pratical point of view I am not intereseted in securing the balde for longer than a few seconds, all I need is the time to breifly secure the arm, to takedown in what ever way I can at the time.

But by only securing the arm you are not securing the blade, the wrist still has mobility and in the struggle of your take down you have zero control of the knife leaving the possibility of getting cut on the inside of the wrist. At this point how do you know if you'll continue to hold on to the assailant or even if you can depending on if there is a lot of blood and his arm is slippy? Why take the chance and spend a little time learning how to control the KNIFE properly as this is what will do the most damage.

Everyone can instinctively grab things when they need to. I've seen this time and time again. I've never ONCE in my experience, or in my instructor's experience ever have to show someone how to garb an arm. You reach out and grab it. Sometimes you miss. So do the best, you try again, close distance, takedown and run. It's not complex.

So let me get this straight, you advocate trying to grab someones arm who's trying to stab you at full speed and if you miss close the distance and try again? If you missed the chances are he's stabbed you, your now starting to lose blood and maybe starting to go in to shock. So if you weren't quick enough the first time you will be now? What if you grab too soon and cut your hand, not knowing how to grab a knife hand correctly increases the chances of something important like muscles,nerves or tendons getting cut how then do you grab when you no longer have that motor function? And there is no point saying stuff like,

This is the problem with the solve this scenario style of questioning - it's pointless.

It's not pointless, these are questions your course participants can have, you need to have an answer for them! And God forbid they find themselves in this scenario, which I admit is unlikely you haven't prepared them sufficiently for a knife attack.

So to some up grabbing a knife wielding assailant is not the same as the way you've been grabbing your whole life there are subtle differences and the hand placement is very important, it makes all the difference.

As I said above most people know instinctively how to grab something. I don't have to spend 10 years training someone to do that.

I never said you did, it actually takes very little time to show someone this and have them work it in to their training without affecting anything they've previously done. Which is why I don't understand why people don't teach. Maybe they don't understand themselves.

I remember quite clearly I taught 3 Gardai Siochanne this same technique last year during a bodyweight training session in the park. These people had little to know prior experience in martial arts. After 5 minutes each was already quite proficent in full speed full power drills. If you can't do it after 5 minutes it's too complex and a waste of time.

Quite simply they'll never pull it off under real duress. I've been privileged enough in my time to have gotten to work with many different law enforcement officers and special forces operators while travelling Europe and the U.S. We've worked with the SEALs, even they rep everything they do hundreds of times so that when it comes to doing it for real, under real stress they can pull it off and these are men who are trained to soak up information like sponges. So if they spend hours training everything from their knife work to their firearms stuff how can you say that three members of the Gardai Siochanne were proficient after five minutes?

To summarise you don't have to spend years teaching people the skills they use everyday.

These are the skills that can get you killed or seriously injured in a knife attack.

I like the rigging system idea, that sounds cool, but is it realistic? How many cirminals will have a multiple knife rig on them? Are you conditioning unrealisitc response becasue of that. Why are you still engaging an opponent if they have dropped a knife? Why aren't you practicing running away very fast? Seriously, sprint training is a better option and better use of your time.

Why isn't realistic? Not the rig, obviously but if someone is carrying a weapon what's to stop them carrying another. Just because the first weapon is no longer a threat does not mean there is not another and it is irresponsible to ignore that fact. And if someone has attacked me with a weapon, making me fear for my life I'm not just going to run away not knowing if they've another weapon or if they're going to pursue me, they were desperate enough to attack me in the first place I have no idea what they are capable of, I'm going to make sure they are in no position to follow me if I go or keep them under control until I can get some help.

but at the end of that day there are only in all the different styles and methods 10 ways to stab or cut someone. Boil it down to the essentials and don't get hung up on individual little traits that ultimately don't effect the path of the blade. 10 that's it. If you can find another way to strike someone with a knife that isn't covered in those 10 I'll be incredibly impressed.

Sorry but that's just rubbish. The "little traits" have a huge impact on how you deal with the attack. It may only need small adjustments to your response but those adjustments are the difference between a slash to the back of the arm and a slash to your carotid.

And I disagree wtih the whole combination attack thing you mentioned - that's pretty unrealsitic too in my experience, but fair play to them I'm sure it looked very cool. I know I couldn't pull it off, but then again I would never need to thank god.

How is it unrealistic. A thai boxer that trains 3-4 nights a week gets in to a fight and throws a cross, hook, low kick combination and drops his assailant.
He's trained those moves since he was eight years old doing thousands and thousands of reps, perfected them in sparing and then used them in the ring and it's unrealistic he would use it in a fight. But a group of people training maybe 2-4 hours a week for a 6-8 week course, if it's even that long, can fend of a knife attacker. Now which is more realistic?

None taken. ANd yes there are many many many variables - however they are all variations of certian specific principlas. These principals are what I teach. If you undertsand them then you can deal more effectively with the variables.

So then your only teaching at the most half of what they should know. When you add variations it changes something and more than likely will have to be dealt with in a slightly different way, you can't just assume that the old way will work and if it doesn't that someones every day motor skills will suffice.

As regards contstant direction - that's a VERY poor statment. Are you implying that you had have to stand over a student and walk them through an attack in porgress, ask the attacker to stop so you adjust they're hand position? Of course not. But if they require years of training and consant direction - how on earth will they ever be able to use that?

Of course not that's being absurd, but to think that you can spend a few hours with someone showing them some basic principals and then let them off and tell them they'll be able deal with a knife attack, to my mind that's fraudulent. You need to spend time at the beginning as the instructor making sure the student is doing everything correctly, installing the movement in to his muscle memory, when your confident that he has grasped it you start to bring up the pace making sure he is still doing it correctly and as you add more and more pressure adjust what needs to be adjusted to help him deal with what he's facing. If you don't do it gradually getting him used to the situation, when faced with the real thing he'll freak out which is a natural human reaction. You simply can not do this in a short space of time and have it be successful.

Be realistic. Apply common sense. Complicated technqiues, intricate disarms, flow and fients take years to master and apply, that's very true - it's an art from. I have no interest in making art a useful tool in saving my skin. I would much prefer to apply the skills I was raised knowing - ie how to grab things and use that to save my skin. It doesn't take long and it works in full contact, full speed, full power, full agression drills, much better and much quicker than the majority of the fine skills of MA.

How do you know this? Your making an assumption here. You haven't trained with me, my instructors or any of my students you don't know if what you teach works better than what we do or any other martial art for that matter.

I head of security for a nightclub, I showed the guys how to disarm a guy with a bottle before ejecting him, now they can all do it successfully when ever they need to, it's quite simple and the same as stripping a knife. It didn't take them years to master it before they could do it, because they had been shown how to grab correctly and all the other little subtleties, they could do it almost straight away, they'll master the technique while they are working, but that's only a tiny part of what should be shown when dealing with a bladed weapon. Don't say it wont work because you cant pull something off, it doesn't mean that others can't do it and teach it with success.

In my opinion, and the metropolitan police force among others agree with me here - you do not need to spend years practicing to grab someone's arm.

What the Metropolitan Police force require from their training in knife defence is entirely different from what a civilian needs to be shown. The Met are supplied with stab vests which cover the majority of their "vital targets" leaving only a few exposed, which they need only to learn how to protect This is relatively simple compared to teaching someone wearing everyday clothes, bearing in mind the add very little protection.

tallaght01

Another problem with grabbing the wrist is that the attacker can reach over and grab the knife with his free hand, I guess.
Unless you're hitting with the conter strike simultaneously as you block.

Ballisong

Another problem with grabbing the wrist is that the attacker can reach over and grab the knife with his free hand, I guess.
Unless you're hitting with the conter strike simultaneously as you block.

That's a really good observation. Just grabbing and securing the knife hand isn't enough on it's own, there are things that should be done before, during and after you do this. Striking is definitely one of them, no harm in giving him a couple of slaps to take his mind a little away from just attacking you. Also it'll soften him up making whatever you want to do next a little easier, like a take down or a disarm.

Dave Joyce

Boru, to be honest, maybe its the net and can't tell someones intent in statements but your coming across as been very condescending!

You could spend the rest of your life studying a knife based art exclusively

Just interested to know on what experience you base this statement? Have you trained in a KNIFE based system before?

Now, grabbing the arm may be a natural thing but what is the knife guy doing while you attempt this...just standing still or maybe pausing while you grab with NO REACTION to your movement. My point originally was about entries either theres or yours (the defender). We train tapping of different types in order to make that entry or to bridge the gap!! What I was agreeing with initally was Mick Coup's idea of attacking the knife guy and putting him under pressure from the get go but was wondering what the different responses were if they attacked first. I may be wrong but your reaction to this scenario is to attempt to grab the arm???!!!

If you want you can spend you life teaching someone ever conceivable sentence in the English language - or you can teach them the basics of letters, and words, and grammer. That way while some may never become poets most can read. Same thing with knife training. 10 possible directions of attak are all you really need to worry about. And you can teach that VERY quickly. That's just one example.

Hmm, where have I heard that kind of stuff before. I normally teach an Introductory course for Muaythai and over the 10 classes we cover 98% of the fundamental techniques which participants have to have down before progressing to the next level. Now from what you're saying, they're READY at this point to do all for themselves.....I think NOT!!

3KINGS

It always seems to be the smart ass answer to say run,if some one pulls a blade.Whats to stop the guy or guys running after you.As this is the craic in London,where they run you down and stab you,scum bags are fit these days you know.

As I havent heard of any one being killed by armbar and please MMA'ers dont go of on one.Weapons are reality,all depending on where you live,social circles and the like.As for should an understanding on bladed weapons be a central part of a martial teaching,I personal think so.I like to wrestle but use it as supplement sport or really what a traditionalist would call it a military game.

As Muay Thai is a sport and Krabbi or Ling lom are used when they are getting serious about a fight,as in life or death....Muay Thai would not be used.Same for Indonesian or Phillie arts...Indo like Gulat/Wrestling...the Phillies have there Dumog/Wrestling but they but they put they'er time mostly into weapon's based defence because thats what cutz it in reality...

but then you may be walking about like a nut job,thinking every one is carring a blade...so should you be carrying one....thats whats happing in London.As running dont work,they'll just run you down.

Martin25

I out ran two of them them in Dublin but back in the day I was fast, now I would have to stand and have a go as the feckers would easilily catch me.

Charlie3dan

Probability of coming out best in a fight unarmed, against an armed attacker

VS

Probability of being able to get of of the situation or at least get to a place with witnesses

Ah look, that leaving cert math does come in handy.
I take the points above but as a general answer to a general question I don't think running is bad advice. Again though it's all circumstance. Martin feels he mightn't be able to run fast anymore, maybe even guys who do consider themselves fast wouldn't be able to run if they just walked out of the gym.

As for carrying a knife yourself, f that point of view were adopted it could only lead to more stabbings.

Boru.

Ballisong, Dave, I sincerely apologize for any misunderstanding or insult my post may have caused. It is not my wish to offend or condescend in any manner. The exact opposite. I am deeply thankful for the time and consideration both of you have taken with your reply's and I thought I had made that clear.

Unfortunately the net often obscures and confuses aspects of an argument or conversattion people would otherwise agree upon. I have been asked not to discuss the matter further here but if you would like to continue the converstation privately I would be more than happy to do so.

All the best,

Yours,

Paul

Dave Joyce

I have been asked not to discuss the matter further here but if you would like to continue the converstation privately I would be more than happy to do so.

WTF??? How do you mean, who was the person that asked you not to discuss this any further. This is a public forum and I think this is the perfect place to discuss the issue. However, if for some reason you cannot continue, then perhaps the person who asked you to stop should come on here cause there are some points addressed that need to be answered!!!

Dragan

Dave Joyce wrote: »

WTF??? How do you mean, who was the person that asked you not to discuss this any further. This is a public forum and I think this is the perfect place to discuss the issue. However, if for some reason you cannot continue, then perhaps the person who asked you to stop should come on here cause there are some points addressed that need to be answered!!!

Personally i would agree. If any kind of legal issue is involved, which is the only reason i can think of as to why a conversation would be asked to cease, then i'll lock the thread, no problem.

Other than that, i think it reflects kind of poorly to be honest.

t-ha

Questions about knife defense --> world's longest posts.

Fact.

Ballisong

Unfortunately the net often obscures and confuses aspects of an argument or conversattion people would otherwise agree upon. I have been asked not to discuss the matter further here but if you would like to continue the converstation privately I would be more than happy to do so.

????????????????

I have to agree with Dave and Dragan here. If there is some legal reason that the conversation can not continue then of course that's fair enough, but I can't see any.

If you have been asked to cease discussing it, then at least have the courtesy to explain why, as far as I'm concerned there are several quite important question I asked about how you teach your knife defence course, that frankly as a Filipino martial arts instructor I find a bit worrying.

the_syco

IMO, if you're close enough to grab their arm, they're close enough to knee/kick you in the balls.

Boru.

Dave Joyce wrote: »

WTF??? How do you mean, who was the person that asked you not to discuss this any further. This is a public forum and I think this is the perfect place to discuss the issue. However, if for some reason you cannot continue, then perhaps the person who asked you to stop should come on here cause there are some points addressed that need to be answered!!!

Well that's agressive. Dave, with all due respect and also to you Ballisong, and even you D, my private correspondence is my private business. It's none of yours. I see no reason to divulge it to you, or anyone else on a public forum. I don't need to tell you the contents to inform you of my decision to remove myself from this discussion. As I mentioned I have no problem talking to either of you about the topic, you're both passionate intelligent people - but niether of you actually have bothered to contact me.

As regards you concerns, Ballisong, as one instructor to another, I appreciate that, but public intenet forums are NOT ideal forms of communication. From your response it appears you completely failed to acknowledge or address any of the common points we share, or the facts that we agree upon. That's disappointing.

It's selective reading and it happens in every forum - skim a post, find the points you disagree with and argue. Personally I prefer to spend my time looking for comanalities, for underlying patterns that are shared regardless of an individuals emotional investment in an art.

Posting extemely lengthy replies, as Tim pointed out is NOT an effective use of my time to be honest. I have better things to do, like train, or spend time with my family andf friends. Composing detailed replies to your questions and accusations is time consuming, and to be honest pointless in some ways when key points are blatently ignored or misunderstood. You have not seen a single thing I have taught or teach. Yet, you are more than willing to attack the basic underlying prinicpals which even underscore your own art.

I'm going to address, as briefly and clearly as I can what I believe your concerns to be. Then I am abiding by the request I have recieved and dropping this.

But by only securing the arm you are not securing the blade, the wrist still has mobility and in the struggle of your take down you have zero control of the knife leaving the possibility of getting cut on the inside of the wrist.

This is true I do not teach students to directly secure a blade. It's dangerous and regarless of training level, unlikely, not impossible, just unlikey to occur in a safe fashion in a full speed/power scenario. Furthermore, control of the blade is unecessary. To casue fatal damage a knife must have room to manuver, once the arm is grabbed, dsitance is closed. You will you sustain superficial wounds, yes. Can you sustain a cut inner wrist, it's a possability, unlikely, but a possability. Will this induce shock? No. Will it lead to you're immediate incapactiation? No. You can get cut on the wrist, close, takedown and run, long before a slit wrist becomes a life threatenting issue from blood loss.

At this point how do you know if you'll continue to hold on to the assailant or even if you can depending on if there is a lot of blood and his arm is slippy? Why take the chance and spend a little time learning how to control the KNIFE properly as this is what will do the most damage.

Simple. That's how we train it. We use highly realistic fake blood, on hands, arms, the knife etc. Try grabbing a greased arm, similar feeling. And you don't know if you'll continue holding on - you certianly won't for long. These principals are applied VERY quickly. And yes, speed is a factor. Not one in my experience that has been a problem yet.

Your last point is a common fallacy. A knife does no damage - the person weilding it does. A knife lying on a kitchen table hurst no one. A knife being thrust in to you by a person does. The knife hasn't changed - it's that fact a person is thrusting at you with it. Imbolize the person, and the knife is no longer an issue. Hecne why Mick Coup advocates striking the head or the knife weilder and why I adovacte securing the arm and creating an oppertnity for escape. You focus on the kinfe, chances are you'll be badly hurt. Again, superficial wounds are anticipated.

And again please keep in mind that it is HIGHLY unlikely this will ever actually happen, thus I personally think it's a waste of time to focus excessive attention on something that will probably not happen. I'd prefer to spend that enjoying my life. I need to know enough to stay alive should the worst happen, not spend all my free time expecting and training with diminishing returns on invested time.

So let me get this straight, you advocate trying to grab someones arm who's trying to stab you at full speed and if you miss close the distance and try again? If you missed the chances are he's stabbed you, your now starting to lose blood and maybe starting to go in to shock. So if you weren't quick enough the first time you will be now? What if you grab too soon and cut your hand, not knowing how to grab a knife hand correctly increases the chances of something important like muscles,nerves or tendons getting cut how then do you grab when you no longer have that motor function? And there is no point saying stuff like,

Now this is my fault, it's hard to make this clear without demonstration. UIn grabbing the arm there is a way to do it, it's natural and most react with it anyway so it's not a specific technqiue. This is NOT to imply you miss the grab and then you go oh well and let him stab you. The arms are always in the way, and again, it's unlikely, not impossible, just unlikely that a fatal blow, or shock inducing wound would be deleivered. Superficial wounds, mostly to the hands and arms, a fatal blow, no.

Again, never have I nor have my instructors and fellow trainers, encountered anyone, who cannot grab an arm even moving at very fast speeds. Implying there is some super difficult or secret method to grabbing an arm to porvide a transitional anchor to closing distacne is bull. It's very simple and has a high success rate. Not 100%, but far far higher than any traditional and many modern knife disarms.

It's not pointless, these are questions your course participants can have, you need to have an answer for them! And God forbid they find themselves in this scenario, which I admit is unlikely you haven't prepared them sufficiently for a knife attack.

I do have an answer the same I gave in my article, the same I gave the inital poster, the same I gave you - apply the prinicpals. It will work more effectively, in more sitautions, then anything else. I don't even have to demonstrate this when asked. We have a drill where a random scenario suggested to a trainee that is unaware of the scenario that will take place, is attacked in that manner. Guess what, they apply the principals they learnt and they get away.

All my students and those of my fellow instructpors are put through full simulations by the end of the course. They see first hand exactly how effective these principals are and how quickly and effectively they can apply them. Can they escape EVERY knife assault concievable? No, of course not, but I don't teach that. I teach what works in the highest percentage and in the greatest probability.

So to some up grabbing a knife wielding assailant is not the same as the way you've been grabbing your whole life there are subtle differences and the hand placement is very important, it makes all the difference.

You're right there are some subtle differences, but the overal body mechanics and PRINICPALS are the same. The sublte differecnes take about 5 minutes to learn and incoperate. They aren't complex. Does it make ALL the difference - no, but it does substantially help.

Quite simply they'll never pull it off under real duress. I've been privileged enough in my time to have gotten to work with many different law enforcement officers and special forces operators while travelling Europe and the U.S. We've worked with the SEALs, even they rep everything they do hundreds of times so that when it comes to doing it for real, under real stress they can pull it off and these are men who are trained to soak up information like sponges. So if they spend hours training everything from their knife work to their firearms stuff how can you say that three members of the Gardai Siochanne were proficient after five minutes?

These principals are applied under duress, adreneal dumping, sensory overload, siumulated shock, sleep deprivation, etc take your pick. Still works. Precisely because of the way it is designed - simple, gross movements, based on natural reaction. Furthermore it is, as I have mentioned several times already the guidelines of choice for many special and standard police and military units. Not to mention civilians. I can say it in reagrds to the Gardai, becabuse they were.

These are the skills that can get you killed or seriously injured in a knife attack.

Respectfully, you have no clue what you are talking about. You have not even seen the skills to which you refer. I on the otherhand, have seen and trained in MANY traditional methods of knife training and I stand by my statement that many are ineffective and dangerous, they will not work for the majority in the majority of situations where they may be needed and fail under rigorous pressure testing.

Why isn't realistic? Not the rig, obviously but if someone is carrying a weapon what's to stop them carrying another. Just because the first weapon is no longer a threat does not mean there is not another and it is irresponsible to ignore that fact. And if someone has attacked me with a weapon, making me fear for my life I'm not just going to run away not knowing if they've another weapon or if they're going to pursue me, they were desperate enough to attack me in the first place I have no idea what they are capable of, I'm going to make sure they are in no position to follow me if I go or keep them under control until I can get some help.

I was reffering to the rig as unrealistic. With that said, if you want to be Jason Bourne and go back in and attack a guy that is asocial violent psycho and as you say may have another knife or other concealed weapon, be my guest. I won't risk that - I'll be using the distance acquired by taking him down as per the prinicpals outlined above to get the hell away, call for help, scream my head off, call the police, etc.

Sorry but that's just rubbish. The "little traits" have a huge impact on how you deal with the attack. It may only need small adjustments to your response but those adjustments are the difference between a slash to the back of the arm and a slash to your carotid.

Again, I say this with complete respect, but what you're saying is rubbish. Can these little traits suddenly create an additional direction? Have you got more than 10 directions of attack, as per my question? Have you? No. You don't.

Again I work with what will work for the majority in the majority of cases.

How is it unrealistic. A thai boxer that trains 3-4 nights a week gets in to a fight and throws a cross, hook, low kick combination and drops his assailant.
He's trained those moves since he was eight years old doing thousands and thousands of reps, perfected them in sparing and then used them in the ring and it's unrealistic he would use it in a fight. But a group of people training maybe 2-4 hours a week for a 6-8 week course, if it's even that long, can fend of a knife attacker. Now which is more realistic?

Again the majority of conflict ends with repeated blows from the dominant striking hand - not combinations. Yes, some very well trained athletes can do this - Tick Donovan could also knock guys out working the door with a perfect roundhouse kick. He was an excepetion. I don't know how often I have to reapeat this but...

I work with what will work for the majority in the majority of cases.

Complex combinations and chains of attack DO not finish conlfict. Just look at a dog brothers stick fight, or even UFC. They all train combinations - yet the majority of figths, both stick and hand to hand end with repeated single arm strikes. (excluding submissions in UFC of course as they are not street applicable). Why? Becasue that's the most effective.

Although I teach combinations, my primary focus is always sinlge repeated full force blows because that's what finishes the majority of physical confrontations - including knife based ones.

So then your only teaching at the most half of what they should know. When you add variations it changes something and more than likely will have to be dealt with in a slightly different way, you can't just assume that the old way will work and if it doesn't that someones every day motor skills will suffice.

Half of what they should know according to what? According to who? According to what standard and goal exactly? I'll give you mine and the focus of my students -

I work with what will work for the majority in the majority of cases.

That is precisely what I teach. If that offends you fine. But what I teach is that which has been used in the field by professional police and military, vigorously pressure tested and designed to do 1 thing - increase the odds of your survival if attacked with a knife. I DON'T teach people how to pull off cool moves and looking awesome. I DO teach them the best way to surive an assault - that means reducing the chances of a fatal wound and getting the oppertunity to escape.

As for the variations - i'll bring it up again can you give me more than 10 directions of attack with a knife? No? Then what variations are so vitally crucial?

Of course not that's being absurd, but to think that you can spend a few hours with someone showing them some basic principals and then let them off and tell them they'll be able deal with a knife attack, to my mind that's fraudulent.

All I tell them is this -

This is what will work for the majority in the majority of cases.

That means they will have a substantially better chance of dealing with a knife attack. Again, military, police, civilians, etc, agree.

You need to spend time at the beginning as the instructor making sure the student is doing everything correctly, installing the movement in to his muscle memory, when your confident that he has grasped it you start to bring up the pace making sure he is still doing it correctly and as you add more and more pressure adjust what needs to be adjusted to help him deal with what he's facing. If you don't do it gradually getting him used to the situation, when faced with the real thing he'll freak out which is a natural human reaction.

Couldn't agree more.

You simply can not do this in a short space of time and have it be successful.

Couldn't disagree more. That's bull. Of course you can. It's done all the time - and again, serously at the risk of really getting repeitive - military, police, civilians, etc, agree.

How do you know this? Your making an assumption here. You haven't trained with me, my instructors or any of my students you don't know if what you teach works better than what we do or any other martial art for that matter.

Very simple, becasue for the first 3 out of 4 sentences I was taking about me, my opinion, my views. Are you really being arrogant enough to assume you know me better than I know me? I assume I know me better than you do and know my own mind better, so yes, I am assuming and that's how I know it. Based on my cumulative experience in the both traidtional and modern martial arts and in training in dozens of RB combat systems for a cumulative total of nearly 2 decades, I have come to a conclusion about what works for me. That's how I know my own mind.

As for other arts, and while what you say is true, I haven't tried you, your instructors etc, I assume you fall in line with the other Fillipino arts. And after study of several Filipino fighting styles (by the way I am second generation student of Sifu Danny Inosanto, and in answer to your later wuestions Dave, yes I have) and a few more, most are far too complex and require a diminished return on time spent training as regards actual defence. (That's not to say they aren't cool arts, they are and definitely worth studying for a range of other reasons).

I head of security for a nightclub, I showed the guys how to disarm a guy with a bottle before ejecting him, now they can all do it successfully when ever they need to, it's quite simple and the same as stripping a knife. It didn't take them years to master it before they could do it, because they had been shown how to grab correctly and all the other little subtleties, they could do it almost straight away, they'll master the technique while they are working, but that's only a tiny part of what should be shown when dealing with a bladed weapon. Don't say it wont work because you cant pull something off, it doesn't mean that others can't do it and teach it with success.

Cool. I'm sure you're staff apprectaited that. If it keeps them safer it's worth knowing. That said aren't you assuming now? You have NO clue what I can or cannot do, what techniques I can and can not apply. But for the fifth time -

This is what will work for the majority in the majority of cases.

I really don't care what you or you're bouncers can do. You could be Dalton for all I care. What is important to me is not if a student can stip a beer bottle and eject someone from a club - what is important to me is to teach them the most effiecnet and effective way to surive an assault - that means reducing the chances of a fatal wound and getting the oppertunity to escape.

What the Metropolitan Police force require from their training in knife defence is entirely different from what a civilian needs to be shown. The Met are supplied with stab vests which cover the majority of their "vital targets" leaving only a few exposed, which they need only to learn how to protect This is relatively simple compared to teaching someone wearing everyday clothes, bearing in mind the add very little protection.

That's very true - but the PRINCIPALS are the same. I'll come back to this one last time - Can a police officer be attacked in some way that a civilain cannot oir vica versa? Are there more than 10 directional attacks when attacking a civilian or a copper with a knife? No. Thought so. Thus the principals and target areas remain the same. What is different is the end goal a civilian does not need to restrain a knife weilding attacker. A cop might.

---

Right. I think that covers everything. I've wasted 3 hours writing this and I'm done. That's it. No more. It's ridiculous. Longest most boring post EVER. Good bye. I could have taught over a quater of a knife course in the time it's taken me to go though this so I really hope this was worth my time.

Deliverance XXV

^^^ Big post

Okay coming from a guy with no martial arts experience or knowledge here's my question...

If you are cornered, and your assailant-to-be looks like he is going to attack you, not just a mere mugging, what would the law say if with your left hand you held his armed hand just for a split second (if he was close enough, or just punch if he left a wide enough gap) and then drive your right fist into your assailant-to-be's throat. Surely one punch to the neck would be enough to ground (more?) him? Are throat punches frowned upon? If it's possibly your life for his?

Would that be assault? Attempted murder? Manslaughter? Self defence?
I'm not trying to aggravate this interesting discussion but it's a question I've always asked myself.

3KINGS

Boru...as we would say in Belfast "You would need yer bumps felt" you must come from the Kamakaze camp of knife defence :eek:

Dragan

Boru. wrote: »

Well that's agressive. Dave, with all due respect and also to you Ballisong, and even you D, my private correspondence is my private business. It's none of yours. I see no reason to divulge it to you, or anyone else on a public forum. I don't need to tell you the contents to inform you of my decision to remove myself from this discussion.

As regards you concerns, Ballisong, as one instructor to another, I appreciate that, but public intenet forums are NOT ideal forms of communication.

In that case i would simply say to excercise more caution around what conversations you get involved in and the media through which you have them.

As i said, it looks poorly and i imagine will make people hesitate to engage in protracted debate in the future.

Dragan
Forum Moderator

Ballisong

Wow I think you need to relax. I agree there's no need for long drawn out posts so I'll keep my answers as brief as I can.

This is true I do not teach students to directly secure a blade. It's dangerous and regarless of training level, unlikely, not impossible, just unlikey to occur in a safe fashion in a full speed/power scenario

Not true. The blade can be secured quite easily as your securing the arm with only a slight change in your hand positioning.

Will it lead to you're immediate incapactiation?

Actually it can incapacitate your hand and affect your ability to secure the arm or take him down. As I'm sure your aware it's human nature to pull away from any kind of cut or puncture this at best means you can't really secure the arm at worst gives him an opening.

The arms are always in the way, and again, it's unlikely, not impossible, just unlikely that a fatal blow, or shock inducing wound would be deleivered.

Not true, depending on the length of the blade. A solid thrust with a 3 inch blade can go right through the hand and in to the neck or any other part of the body and none of our vital organs are all that far away from the surface. Our flesh is not actually all that strong. We've had a debate like this before where we did a demo of putting a cheap 10 euro knife through a car door up to the hilt to show just how little protection our cloths and bodies could offer us.

All my students and those of my fellow instructpors are put through full simulations by the end of the course.

What's a full simulation? Do you introduce a live blade and see how they cope with the fear and all that adrenalin. Try your simulation at only 25 or 50 percent with a real blade and watch the student fall apart.

I teach what works in the highest percentage and in the greatest probability.

What are you basing this on? What research have you done? Have you watched cctv footage on how criminals attack with knives? Met with them and asked why they attacked the way that the did, why they picked certain targets? Thanks to our connections in law enforcement we have. We have seen footage of a guy stabbing someone and every time the guy tried to grab him or the knife the attacker actually cleared the grab and just stabbed him anyway. We were later able to find out he never trained in any martial arts he just found out what worked when doing it on the street, we've seen dozen
of these kinds of incidents on cctv.

Respectfully, you have no clue what you are talking about. You have not even seen the skills to which you refer.

Actually it were the

the skills they use everyday

that you mentioned that we were talking about and I'm pretty sure I've witnessed everyday skills.

I was reffering to the rig as unrealistic

The rig is obviously a training modifier used to help simulate all the possible draw points.

I on the otherhand, have seen and trained in MANY traditional methods of knife training and I stand by my statement that many are ineffective and dangerous, they will not work for the majority in the majority of situations where they may be needed and fail under rigorous pressure testing.

So in your two decades of training how many of these have you mastered? Because they are the only ones that you can talk with any authority about and if they will work for the majority of people in the majority of situations. Unless you've gone and fought all your old instructors. You may not be able to pull off their teachings but that could just be your lack of understanding, not a fault in the system. I in no way mean this as an insult just pointing out a possibility

Again, I say this with complete respect, but what you're saying is rubbish. Can these little traits suddenly create an additional direction? Have you got more than 10 directions of attack, as per my question? Have you? No. You don't.

No of course they can't but there is a lot more to dealing with an attack than just the direction it's coming from and how then would you deal with a non linear attack? A knife isn't as straight forward a weapon as you seem to think it is and usually neither is the person who's using it.

Again the majority of conflict ends with repeated blows from the dominant striking hand - not combinations. Yes, some very well trained athletes can do this - Tick Donovan could also knock guys out working the door with a perfect roundhouse kick. He was an excepetion. I don't know how often I have to reapeat this but...

I work with what will work for the majority in the majority of cases.

Complex combinations and chains of attack DO not finish conlfict. Just look at a dog brothers stick fight, or even UFC. They all train combinations - yet the majority of figths, both stick and hand to hand end with repeated single arm strikes. (excluding submissions in UFC of course as they are not street applicable). Why? Becasue that's the most effective.

Your point was a combination attack wasn't realistic.I witness a dozen or so street fights a week outside of the club where I work (and I don't work in a particularly rough club or area as many people on here will tell you) and walking home from work and the most common form of attack is the simplest combination of them all, a left and a right. They're generally not pretty and more often than not hay makers but combinations none the less.

As for the variations - i'll bring it up again can you give me more than 10 directions of attack with a knife? No? Then what variations are so vitally crucial?

Again back with your 10 directions. No I can't make up a new direction. I can give you four directions, forward, back, left and right, anything other than this and your talking about the angle of attack and I can give you dozens of these. Really the direction matters not what's really important is the intended target. That's what needs to be addressed.

All I tell them is this -

This is what will work for the majority in the majority of cases.

It's starting to sound like your trying cover yourself here.

Couldn't disagree more. That's bull. Of course you can. It's done all the time - and again, serously at the risk of really getting repeitive - military, police, civilians, etc, agree.

What, your just naming certain groups of people, who exactly agrees? What qualifies them to say it works, have they all been in knife attacks?

Very simple, becasue for the first 3 out of 4 sentences I was taking about me, my opinion, my views.

So you were making an assumption? How do you know the stuff we teach can't be applied, there's a difference between mastering a technique and being able to apply it. Your right you know yourself better than I do and how fast you are able to pick things up, my apologies.

Cool. I'm sure you're staff apprectaited that. If it keeps them safer it's worth knowing. That said aren't you assuming now? You have NO clue what I can or cannot do, what techniques I can and can not apply. But for the fifth time -

This is what will work for the majority in the majority of cases.

I thought it was a safe assumption that you were a normal human being and if you were able to apply a technique, that you could teach other normal humans how to apply it. If you can do it and apply it why not teach them. I don't teach anything that my instructor hasn't made sure I can do in real time under real pressure.

That's very true - but the PRINCIPALS are the same. I'll come back to this one last time - Can a police officer be attacked in some way that a civilain cannot oir vica versa? Are there more than 10 directional attacks when attacking a civilian or a copper with a knife? No. Thought so. Thus the principals and target areas remain the same. What is different is the end goal a civilian does not need to restrain a knife weilding attacker. A cop might.

The target areas for a cop are not the same because of the stab vest. Civilians aren't issued with stab vests so it's actually very different, the principals may be the same but they are overall principals or guidelines, yes? It is far easier to teach a cop with a stab vest how to defend against a knife most of his vital targets are protected and the ones that aren't, can with training be dealt with quite well, a cop with a stab vest and the correct training can be devasting to a knife weilding attacker, I know this because many of the guys in our organisation work in the NYPD and for a while knife crime with in the Asian gangs over there was rampant. A civilian has no protection, therefore a lot more to worry about, that on it's own requires more training, so please stop comparing civilians with military and police as there needs are different and as a professional you should deal with them as such.

Wow that's longer than I intended sorry all.

Ballisong

As I mentioned I have no problem talking to either of you about the topic, you're both passionate intelligent people - but niether of you actually have bothered to contact me.

This is a public forum and one of it's purposes in my opinion as well as general discussion is to educate each other on our respective arts, not just the people taking part in the discussion but also those who are just reading the thread because of a lack of knowledge on the subject. I think this is an excellent way to educate people on different subjects than they may be used to.

I don't feel that having this discussion privately helps anyone but if you want to contact me via a pm then by all means do so.

ryoishin

any vids lads of decent knife stuff.

Roper

ryoishin wrote: »

any vids lads of decent knife stuff.

This is the most practical one I've seen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuMqg2Xhjoo and the only thing I'll ever use a knife for.

In fairness lads, you were having a decent debate so when someone enigmatically says someone has told them to stop talking it is a bit odd. Especially when they post a 3 hour long post afterwards!

ColinJennings

King Nothing wrote: »

^^^ Big post

Okay coming from a guy with no martial arts experience or knowledge here's my question...

If you are cornered, and your assailant-to-be looks like he is going to attack you, not just a mere mugging, what would the law say if with your left hand you held his armed hand just for a split second (if he was close enough, or just punch if he left a wide enough gap) and then drive your right fist into your assailant-to-be's throat. Surely one punch to the neck would be enough to ground (more?) him? Are throat punches frowned upon? If it's possibly your life for his?

Would that be assault? Attempted murder? Manslaughter? Self defence?
I'm not trying to aggravate this interesting discussion but it's a question I've always asked myself.

It would be left to the jury. The question posed to the jury would be whether you were in fear of your life and did you react reasonably in response to that fear. If the answer to those questions were both yes, you would be allowed to rely on the lawful use of force. There is a older post where I go into further discussion on this point, not on knife attacks, in this forum if you are interested. Knifes, guns and preemptive attacks have been found to be a lawful use of force.

Dave Joyce

Well that's agressive. Dave

Jaysus, if you think THAT'S aggressive, I really think you're in the wrong industry and then you choose to have a hissy fit and hardly address anything I said EXCEPT for one side reference......I'm not sure if I'm VERY hurt or relieved:).

Anyway, there have been enough long posts and I think Ballisong has addressed those points very well so I'll keep mine very short. Just

You will you sustain superficial wounds, yes. Can you sustain a cut inner wrist, it's a possability, unlikely, but a possability. Will this induce shock? No. Will it lead to you're immediate incapactiation? No.

, oh REALLY???!!! I thought you did first aid training, have you not heard of ligaments and tendons in the wrist and if they were severed/badly damaged, would this not incapacitate the wrist??

ryoishin

Roper your slipping up, I was expecting an old Kung Fu scene catching the blade between his testicles.

April Raine

Boru. wrote: »

Just look at my medical practice.

Are you a medical doctor?

YeGods

Martin25 wrote: »

Everyone has their opinion on this and one of my Instructors told me that some advice/techniques will get you killed.
He has been stabbed and shot and survived.
What do you think is the best way?

Try to remember, if a person pulls a knife on you before a fight starts he's using it as a warning for you to get lost,and may not be intending to use it. As the others say...Run like the wind. he's not likely to chase you. He has achieved what he intended. It's the prson who pulls a knife in the middle of a fight , espically ifhe's losing, then he is the one to worry about. His mind is gone into self protection mode and is very dangerous. Again, Run, because he wants the fight to be over.
This may not always help but at leae you may be able to read the signs.

Musashi

Most of the folks here know that I like knives, I collect all types trying to gather as many ethnic styles of blades as I can.

I also hunt game with rifles, i have a couple of rifles and have used various pistols on various shooting ranges as a hobby.

If I was to face an attacker, trained or untrained, with a weapon (his, not mine) I would prefer to face a gun rather than a knife. The users skill is largely meaningless! A trained gunfighter will shoot you dead, a trained knifer will cut you dead, both take about as long as each other. A common misconception is that being killed with a knife means a noisy and struggling death.

Exsanguination means a knife can kill quickly.

With an untrained attacker you have some hope, but someone unfamiliar with a gun is easier to deal with than one unfamiliar or not commited to an attack with the knife.

Of course given a choice I am nowhere near any attacker, failing that I hope for a shotgun and an eejit with a knife!

Final advice for dealing with a knifer again goes to Mick Coup.

Never stop, do not give up. Most victims "self-stop". They see blood and give up.

The human organism has been around a while, watch the Discovery Channel! People receive freaky injuries and walk miles to get help. Why should being or cut be any different?

Beat the head off your attacker and go get help. People have survived massive wounds on sheer willpower, harness that "no quit" attitude and just refuse to die!

You may say this isn't an option for you, but why not? The drive to live is one of the strongest we as human animals possess, not just Olympic athletes and elite Military Units, all of us.

We all want to live and deep down we are all freaky monsters that can endure and overcome! Get some training, try to get healthier and fitter, and cultivate a toughness that means you cannot just quit and die!

cowzerp

Obvious thing to do is run, if thats not possible i'd say dodge as best you can and hit 1st, hard fast and dont stop till you can retreat or finish the attacker off. best of luck

Mick Coup

There's an old saying along the lines of 'the quality of the question determines the quality of the answer' and this applies directly to this kind of discussion.

Everything, all the advice on each and every post within this thread, will work - but only in the correct context.

Grabbing an arm, running, even kicking a knife out of someone's hand - all possible within the right scenario context, but all equally impossible out of context.

The title of the thread is what I used to determine context - a knife attack. Against an active threat, not just someone brandishing a knife, your options to run or grab an arm are virtually non-existant - that ship has sailed.

Try to turn and run against a training partner trying to murder you, one who is just as mobile as you and doesn't have to turn around first but is 'good to go' in his sprinters blocks.

Try and catch the arm of a continually slashing and stabbing attacker, going full force - who is also allowed to punch you 'as required' with his free hand.

If someone is making threats and using the weapon to highlight his demands, then this isn't actually a knife 'attack' and you can increase your reactionary gap slowly, whilst being compliant etc prior to bolting and doing an Olympic-standard sprint.

If your professional role requires that you have to confront a knife waving individual then you can secure the knife arm - providing it's not actively trying to conduct a pre-mortem examination of your lower-intestinal tract!

Right or wrong I address the worst-case 'active' threat first, the nightmare scenario - before turning the volume down to cover 'pre-active' potential threats and similar contacts.

Establish the context and usually the solution is staring you in the face - fail to do so and you talk in circles, everyone has the right answer for the wrong question or vice versa!

Mick

YeGods

Musashi wrote: »

Most of the folks here know that I like knives, I collect all types trying to gather as many ethnic styles of blades as I can.

I also hunt game with rifles, i have a couple of rifles and have used various pistols on various shooting ranges as a hobby.

If I was to face an attacker, trained or untrained, with a weapon (his, not mine) I would prefer to face a gun rather than a knife. The users skill is largely meaningless! A trained gunfighter will shoot you dead, a trained knifer will cut you dead, both take about as long as each other. A common misconception is that being killed with a knife means a noisy and struggling death.

Exsanguination means a knife can kill quickly.

With an untrained attacker you have some hope, but someone unfamiliar with a gun is easier to deal with than one unfamiliar or not commited to an attack with the knife.

Of course given a choice I am nowhere near any attacker, failing that I hope for a shotgun and an eejit with a knife!

Final advice for dealing with a knifer again goes to Mick Coup.

Never stop, do not give up. Most victims "self-stop". They see blood and give up.

The human organism has been around a while, watch the Discovery Channel! People receive freaky injuries and walk miles to get help. Why should being or cut be any different?

Beat the head off your attacker and go get help. People have survived massive wounds on sheer willpower, harness that "no quit" attitude and just refuse to die!

You may say this isn't an option for you, but why not? The drive to live is one of the strongest we as human animals possess, not just Olympic athletes and elite Military Units, all of us.

We all want to live and deep down we are all freaky monsters that can endure and overcome! Get some training, try to get healthier and fitter, and cultivate a toughness that means you cannot just quit and die!

Hi Musashi. I see you mentioned you collect kinves. I collect them myself and I don't know anybody else that does. i live in Co.Cork and most people raise eyebrows and mention stuff about "not breaking into your house" when i tell them about the collection.:eek:
Anyway - Let me know if you're interested in talking about blades for a bit. I'd love to know what other people collect. Lately i've been buying some Gun Brand name knives, Smith&Wesson, Colt but my favourite is a Walther Tactical fighting knife. I've also got a Gill Hibben Griffiyn (released for 2000) and I've got a standard Ka-Bar USMC fighting knife.
I've around 120 knives alltogether but only around 30 of 40 are good knives.

Thanks, YeGods.

fergal_d

Martin25 wrote: »

Everyone has their opinion on this and one of my Instructors told me that some advice/techniques will get you killed.
He has been stabbed and shot and survived.
What do you think is the best way?

If you look at kaotic.com its a video web site, there is 2 guys fighting then 1 stabs the other guy with a TINY knife around the chest and runs off...

The guy who got stabed isnt hurt at all just a bit of blood... he ended up dying from the injury... it had hit his heart

track and field is the best martial art for a street fight

Buzzmund

train your mind to the point where all you have to do is look at your attacker and his hear explodes, or buy the karate kid dvd box set hahahah

Buzzmund

i meant his "heart" not his hear