Leaving Cert History: Heavy Metal?

Twilightning

I know this is LC-related, but I thought it'd be more appropriate to place it here

Well I just had the first proper day of school of 6th year today and we're to give up ideas for the projects we're to do which account for 20% of the Leaving Cert history marks, and the time frame in which we're to write of the project subject has to be between 1800-1992, so not too far back, and really not all that recent.

I was thinking of writing an essay on the origins and history of the development of the genre of heavy metal and possibly its many sub-genres, which began around the late 1960s to early 1970s with bands like Blue Cheer and Black Sabbath. And then maybe progress on from there. Essay has to be 1,200 words since I'm doing higher level.

What else do you guys think I should discuss within the essay?

chin_grin

Twilightning wrote: »

I know this is LC-related, but I thought it'd be more appropriate to place it here

Well I just had the first proper day of school of 6th year today and we're to give up ideas for the projects we're to do which account for 20% of the Leaving Cert history marks, and the time frame in which we're to write of the project subject has to be between 1800-1992, so not too far back, and really not all that recent.

I was thinking of writing an essay on the origins and history of the development of the genre of heavy metal and possibly its many sub-genres, which began around the late 1960s to early 1970s with bands like Blue Cheer and Black Sabbath. And then maybe progress on from there. Essay has to be 1,200 words since I'm doing higher level.

What else do you guys think I should discuss within the essay?

All I really want to know is, will they let you do that? I mean it doesn't really sound like an Essay a History teacher will pick up and go "well this chap knows what he's talking about but looks like he hasn't really paid much attention in his history class. Instead wants to write about a devoted subject on metal music". I don't think it will fly! Don't mean to sound bad. (PS I really do want to know if they'll let you write it! )

Twilightning

chin_grin wrote: »

All I really want to know is, will they let you do that? I mean it doesn't really sound like an Essay a History teacher will pick up and go "well this chap knows what he's talking about but looks like he hasn't really paid much attention in his history class. Instead wants to write about a devoted subject on metal music". I don't think it will fly! Don't mean to sound bad. (PS I really do want to know if they'll let you write it! )

We were exchanging ideas within the class itself and I asked him if I could do it, and he didn't seem to have a problem with it. He said you can write about whatever you want as long as whatever we're writing about has been relevant and made an impact on people/culture in general, and I think heavy metal definitely meets the criteria.

christophicus

Yup you can pretty much do whatever you want. I did mine on Charles Manson and that was fine.

Sephiroth_dude

Theres a new dvd out middle of september called "get trashed"history of trash metal and how its infleunced other types of metal,it might be of some help to you in writing your essay .

Patricide

Seriously if your gonna do this get Metal: A headbangers journey. You could pretty much copy it word for word and you got an A essay!!! Plus its really interesting too.

Twilightning

Patricide wrote: »

Seriously if your gonna do this get Metal: A headbangers journey. You could pretty much copy it word for word and you got an A essay!!! Plus its really interesting too.

Watched it 4 times my friend! It kicks a major amount of arse. I was just disappointed they didn't spend more time on power metal, since it's my favourite sub-genre of the lot. ;[

I was thinking of using that as a major source alright.

Patricide

Yup, seeming that he used it for a thesis, im sure you could use it for the Leaving!!

Twilightning

Patricide wrote: »

Yup, seeming that he used it for a thesis, im sure you could use it for the Leaving!!

I could have sworn he said in the movie he based his thesis on the struggle of Guatemalan refugees or something like that. xD

carchaeologist

Ask jack black for the chart he drew on the blackboard in school of rock!!:D

Twilightning

Close-up view can be located here for your convenience.

Patricide

Could be alright!! I havent seen the movie in a while!!!

Stev_o

Wait wait wait! Dont put pen to papper yet the essay HAS to be on a topic that has in someway had a impact on history so make sure you EXPLAIN what metal did, the 1980's culture of it etc etc dont you have to show the examiner how metal is important in history!

Honestly man id asked for this to be moved to the LC forum just so you can get a answer by people who know what you have to do!

Twilightning

Stev_o wrote: »

Wait wait wait! Dont put pen to papper yet the essay HAS to be on a topic that has in someway had a impact on history so make sure you EXPLAIN what metal did, the 1980's culture of it etc etc dont you have to show the examiner how metal is important in history!

Honestly man id asked for this to be moved to the LC forum just so you can get a answer by people who know what you have to do!

Oh I know mate, don't worry! Was only the first day today! The whole point of the essay is to write about only relevant things that have made an impact on people/culture/society as a whole, and as I've said earlier, heavy metal is more than enough to meet the criteria!

I think I'd rather leave the topic here as I'm looking for advice from metal fans on where I could possibly start, what I could discuss about heavy metal itself, etc. I don't have a problem on the technical part of things such as writing the essay, just looking for some opinions on the subject matter itself.

moggins7

wpuld this not be an near impossible topic to keep in the word allowance??
i mean you could write the whole essay on zeppelin lets say, let alone on their genre, let alone on the genres they're responsable for...
hey jesus you could even write about the blast beat alone, that would fill up 1200 words easily enough and it did make an impact on cultures i suppose....

Jack Sheehan

They love original things.

Geranium

You just gotta prove that it's historically relevant... What impact did it make on general society/culture/politics(!) etc? Maybe you could look at it from the idea of the counter culture in the US? Not sure though. You'd need primary and secondary sources as well, so make sure you have plenty of these. If you can't argue how relevant it is, I'd steer clear! Sounds like a fun project though.

I did my project on a very small thing but which had lots of sources such as diaries and novels, made it easier than doing a huge topic, worked out well. The hippie movement could be great fun to research I'd say! Although it's pretty different to metal/rock...

lee_arama

Dude. Don't.

Take this, from a guy who's fairly steeped in the metal industry in Ireland, and as someone who did honours history for their leaving (got a B3 so was happy with that).

You're specialist topic needs to be correctable by whoever picks it up to mark it. If they don't know jack about music then they'll never be able to highlight the relevant points in music history.

Also, since this is not an oft written about subject, where do you begin and where do you end? When did heavy metal start? What were the core influences? Would you know enough about how the scene developed on either side of the Atlantic, why classic genres are still more popular in the USA than they are here?

Can you take it all the way back and identify the roots of the basic metal genre in the other genres you might not be familiar with? Blues? Jazz? Rock n Roll?

Let's put this into perspective. Here in UCC there have been two heavy metal projects that I can remember. One was a 1H disertation for a Sociology degree, and the second was a History of Heavy Metal for a Music Masters. Both took a full 12 months of work, 24 months in the case of the 2nd, and would dwarf anything you could write freehand in 30 minutes next June.

Ultimately I'll warn you - an attempt to do this as your 20% piece will result in you seeing a low C or D on your result slip...

John

Comparing any LC topic to those at a degree/masters level is pointless. For example, anything a LC biology student writes in an exam is barely the truth, let alone comparable to what a student does in their final year project of college. The LC is a completely different beast and different standards are expected.

I didn't do history but do check it out with your teacher first. I imagine with only 1200 words to play with that you won't have much room to discuss more than the bare essentials and even then I say you'd be stretched to fit it all in. Maybe look at one aspect of heavy metal?

lee_arama

John wrote: »

Comparing any LC topic to those at a degree/masters level is pointless.

I'm not comparing them. I'm pointing out that similar projects to the one being proposed took in excess of 10,000 typed, researched words. There is little chance that 30 minutes of handwritten text can hope to come close to anything of value.

I love metal, it's my business after all, but I'd hate to see some kid throw away 20 odd points on a fools errand. There's ample opportunity to follow this line of study at 3rd level, and certainly more there who are qualified to grade someone on it.

You want an idea? Take Donogh O'Malley's and/or Niamh Breatnach's removal of education fees and work on that. It's topical since there's talk of the reintroduction of 3rd level fees. It shows an independence of thought, and it's something teachers will be familiar with. Many of them will have benefitted from free college after all (half fees in 95, free fees from 96 onwards).

Get your points, get to college, then you can enjoy the freedom in what you can study.

damonjewel

Jesus and I wrote about the french front in world war one! Why didn't I do this

I think its a wonderful idea but not sure how you can tie it in as far as cultural/sociological historical relevance goes (especially in 1200 words or less). If your teacher thinks its fine then go for it. One thing I would be wary of is although for an exam marker the novelty of your essay might delight them, it could also work against you if you have some square marking you :pac:

lee_arama

I did a comparison of the relationships between Dev and Carson and Collins and Carson, believing that the latter would have resulted in a unified Ireland by now. There's evidence to suggest that cross border cooperation would have been a fact in the 30's had Collins not been killed.

The thing is that there were articles readily available in historical journals to back me up. It'll be hard to suggest that music took a turn at X point in history if other schools of thought say Y.

Even if the corrector has some knowledge of the genre it's most likely going to be of Limp Wristed Biskit and The Fecking Darkness. Can you expect someone to fully understand the importance of Judas Priest's Sad Wings of Destiny or Jethro Tull's Aqualung? Do you know who Robert Johnson is? Do you know his place in the mythos of guitar music history?

I say that there is far too much information and history in this subject to be able to construct a short piece which reads well.

StormWarrior

I really think you should write about something academic. Whenever I've done something "original" at university I've always lost marks for the content not being academic enough.

lee_arama

StormWarrior wrote: »

I really think you should write about something academic. Whenever I've done something "original" at university I've always lost marks for the content not being academic enough.

You don't lose marks in college for the piece not being academic in subject, but most likely being lacking in referencing. If you can't have at least 4-6 references in your bibliography then you've not researched your topic adequately.

StormWarrior

No, my lecturers always said it's because the topic wasn't academic enough. I stick to academic stuff now and my marks have much improved.

John

lee_arama wrote: »

I'm not comparing them. I'm pointing out that similar projects to the one being proposed took in excess of 10,000 typed, researched words. There is little chance that 30 minutes of handwritten text can hope to come close to anything of value.

I love metal, it's my business after all, but I'd hate to see some kid throw away 20 odd points on a fools errand. There's ample opportunity to follow this line of study at 3rd level, and certainly more there who are qualified to grade someone on it.

You want an idea? Take Donogh O'Malley's and/or Niamh Breatnach's removal of education fees and work on that. It's topical since there's talk of the reintroduction of 3rd level fees. It shows an independence of thought, and it's something teachers will be familiar with. Many of them will have benefitted from free college after all (half fees in 95, free fees from 96 onwards).

Get your points, get to college, then you can enjoy the freedom in what you can study.

How can it be an independence of thought if you're telling him to do it? Surely his original idea shows more independence of thought? And are teachers expected to be familiar with every single topic that comes up? Would all teachers correcting it be familiar with say the Meiji Restoration in Japan or the impact of Schrodinger's book What is Life? on science in the 20th century? There's a lot of history from all over the world covered in that time frame and students are bound to pick topics which are not exactly mainstream history. The LC has to cater to them as much as the ones that do the more familiar stuff.

Out of interest, you say you're involved in the metal industry but also seem to be involved in marking university papers, where do the two meet?

lee_arama wrote: »

I did a comparison of the relationships between Dev and Carson and Collins and Carson, believing that the latter would have resulted in a unified Ireland by now. There's evidence to suggest that cross border cooperation would have been a fact in the 30's had Collins not been killed.

The thing is that there were articles readily available in historical journals to back me up. It'll be hard to suggest that music took a turn at X point in history if other schools of thought say Y.

Even if the corrector has some knowledge of the genre it's most likely going to be of Limp Wristed Biskit and The Fecking Darkness. Can you expect someone to fully understand the importance of Judas Priest's Sad Wings of Destiny or Jethro Tull's Aqualung? Do you know who Robert Johnson is? Do you know his place in the mythos of guitar music history?

I say that there is far too much information and history in this subject to be able to construct a short piece which reads well.

What harm can there be in trying to construct one and see how it goes? Surely it won't take the entire academic year to do 1200 words, if it turns out to be poor he can switch to a more traditional topic. It's only the leaving cert, it's not exactly hard work to change something once you have at least a couple of months to do it. I took up a new subject (home ec) a couple of months before the LC and got a B3 in higher level and swapped my texts in English for something completely different halfway through 6th year (and got an A2 in higher level). The OP sounds interested and dedicated, if they put the work in I'm sure they can make a piece that's readable, coherent and most importantly relevant. It doesn't have to cover the evolution of metal from blues to black metal, it could focus on a move from 60s rock to the hard rock of the 70s and how this had a cultural effect. Pick a topic to suit the amount of words you have to play with.

Same with any historical topic, you're not going to be able to do justice to it in 1200 words. Do you honestly think that LC correctors are looking for groundbreaking research that fits into a standalone 1200 essay? No, they're looking for coherency of thought, use of reference material and originality. If the OP can achieve this, they'll get the marks.

lee_arama wrote: »

You don't lose marks in college for the piece not being academic in subject, but most likely being lacking in referencing. If you can't have at least 4-6 references in your bibliography then you've not researched your topic adequately.

StormWarrior wrote: »

No, my lecturers always said it's because the topic wasn't academic enough. I stick to academic stuff now and my marks have much improved.

Surely it depends on the subject (StormWarrior, is it history you study?) on whether something is academic or not. While you seem to be able to get away with pretty much anything in sociology, the same is not true of something like psychology. Equally, 4-6 references might be a lot in one realm but that would be enough for a bare pass in some subjects.

Twilightning

As was said earlier in the thread, I don't think any historical topic worth its salt in historical relevance will be done a huge amount of justice in 1,200 words. Ordinary level have to have 800 words. See what I mean? My piece doesn't have to be revolutionary, just relevant.

As somebody said earlier, I could concentrate on a specific area of heavy metal itself, like an analysis of how the Parents Music Resource Centre attacked heavy metal music because of their own lyrical interpretation of songs of bands like Twisted Sister.

moggins7

i have to agree with nearly everything lee_arama has said... he speaks sense. i'm not saying its a bad idea but the corrector most likely wont have a foggiest bout metal and wont know whats going on..
i mean i wrote a speach thing in english for my mocks about why students should take up science. i got a c because the teacher didn't have a clue what i was talking about and it was only the form of the speach that passed me. i mean i was only talking about the LHC and he told me to dumb it down!!!

but in sayin that it would be a class topic to do if you could pull it off... maybe you could write about how jack daniels influenced music....

Twilightning

moggins7 wrote: »

i have to agree with nearly everything lee_arama has said... he speaks sense. i'm not saying its a bad idea but the corrector most likely wont have a foggiest bout metal and wont know whats going on..
i mean i wrote a speach thing in english for my mocks about why students should take up science. i got a c because the teacher didn't have a clue what i was talking about and it was only the form of the speach that passed me. i mean i was only talking about the LHC and he told me to dumb it down!!!

but in sayin that it would be a class topic to do if you could pull it off... maybe you could write about how jack daniels influenced music....

We're not talking about an English exam here though, we're talking about history. And maybe you were marked down a few grades in that paper for a variety of other reasons? I noticed several times in your post you misspelled the word 'speech'.

Anyway, I digress.

John was an earlier poster in the thread and said that teachers don't necessarily have to be 100% informed about every subject that a history student is likely to bring to the table. I think if I've written a well thought out, relevant and nicely structured essay on a topic that's had a major impact on society or people in general while citing nothing but reliable sources, then I don't see the reason as to why I should be maked down purely because the examiner hadn't a clue as to who Black Sabbath were.

Geranium

Yeah, the above is very true. I did my project on a practically unknown figure, but it was easy to argue his importance. As much as I love metal, it hasn't really influenced many important events or cultural movements that I can think of. If you don't have concrete things that it effected, you might end up wasting lots of word count trying to argue and describe its influence in a more abstract way.

Twilightning

Geranium wrote: »

Yeah, the above is very true. I did my project on a practically unknown figure, but it was easy to argue his importance. As much as I love metal, it hasn't really influenced many important events or cultural movements that I can think of. If you don't have concrete things that it effected, you might end up wasting lots of word count trying to argue and describe its influence in a more abstract way.

Look at the documentary 'Metal: A Headbanger's Journey' to get an insight into how heavy metal influenced people, especially during the 1980s when it really started to gain momentum.