What, if anything, would constitute proof?

muinteoir1 · 20-09-2008 11:55pm

If you think about it God shows us he exists everyday, but perhaps in not such a dramatic way.

pH · 21-09-2008 12:35am

muinteoir1 wrote: »

If you think about it

I have.

God shows us he exists everyday,

He doesn't.

but perhaps in not such a dramatic way.

At all.

Mal-Adjusted · 21-09-2008 12:54am

Come on, u don't have to ridicule someone for having faith, i don't... you'll just end up being a Dawkins clone

Zillah · 21-09-2008 7:48am

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Come on, u don't have to ridicule someone for having faith, i don't... you'll just end up being a Dawkins clone

There's all sorts of things we don't have to do, like eating icecream, watching movies, denigrating faith, riding rollercoasters etc.

You realise Dawkins wasn't actually the first person in the world to be critical of faith, right?

Mal-Adjusted · 21-09-2008 12:21pm

Zillah wrote: »

There's all sorts of things we don't have to do, like eating icecream, watching movies, denigrating faith, riding rollercoasters etc.

You realise Dawkins wasn't actually the first person in the world to be critical of faith, right?

yip, but he's the most vocal:)

Please tell me you didn't just compare faith to eating ice-cram and watching films!? it's a sensative issue and believers should be treated with respect. i've never been atacked for not having faith. it's just common decency

Zillah · 21-09-2008 12:27pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Please tell me you didn't just compare faith to eating ice-cram and watching films!?

No, I compared ridiculing faith to eating icecream and watching films.

it's a sensative issue and believers should be treated with respect.

I'll always treat people with a certain level of respect simply for them being people. Their beliefs, on the other hand, are ridiculous and I don't respect them in the slightest.

Mal-Adjusted · 21-09-2008 12:57pm

Zillah wrote: »

No, I compared ridiculing faith to eating icecream and watching films.

I'll always treat people with a certain level of respect simply for them being people. Their beliefs, on the other hand, are ridiculous and I don't respect them in the slightest.

Faith is a part of most people, weather we like it or not. (Personally, i don't mind in the slightest:D) you're looking for degrees of separation where none exist. that's just going to piss people off

aidan24326 · 21-09-2008 2:34pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

yip, but he's the most vocal:)

Please tell me you didn't just compare faith to eating ice-cram and watching films!? it's a sensative issue and believers should be treated with respect. i've never been atacked for not having faith. it's just common decency

Believers aren't generally treated with any more or less resepct than anyone else. Their ridiculous beliefs on the other hand, do not deserve the tiniest bit of respect. Would you respect an adult who still believed in Santa? Well there's actually more evidence for Santa's existence (I've seen him) than for the vast majority of the nonsense that your average christian or muslim believes in.

muinteoir1 wrote: »

If you think about it God shows us he exists everyday, but perhaps in not such a dramatic way.

I hope you're not really a muinteoir, I'd rather you weren't teaching kids that sort of gibberish.

Zillah · 21-09-2008 2:47pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Faith is a part of most people, weather we like it or not.

Doesn't mean I have to respect it.

(Personally, i don't mind in the slightest:D)

Wait until the day someone is trying to deny you your human rights or treating you as a second class citizen because their God demands it. I think your opinion might change.

you're looking for degrees of separation where none exist.

I don't know what you're referring to.

that's just going to piss people off

I think its very important for members of a democracy to be able to piss each other off. In fact, I encourage it. Far preferable to a conspiracy of silence where we avoid saying important things out of a fear of rocking the boat. Such as 1950s Ireland. Or Stalin Russia. Or Stasi Germany.

Mal-Adjusted · 21-09-2008 3:13pm

Zillah wrote: »

Doesn't mean I have to respect it.

Wait until the day someone is trying to deny you your human rights or treating you as a second class citizen because their God demands it. I think your opinion might change..

That does'nt happen in the modern world. besides, the vast majority of human rights violations have nothing to do with religion

Zillah wrote: »

I don't know what you're referring to.

If i were to mercilessly rip on how bad your clothes are and how **** the music you listen to is and how stupid your parents are its okay...because i'm not ridiculing You. do you see how this goes?

Zillah wrote: »

I think its very important for members of a democracy to be able to piss each other off. In fact, I encourage it. Far preferable to a conspiracy of silence where we avoid saying important things out of a fear of rocking the boat. Such as 1950s Ireland. Or Stalin Russia. Or Stasi Germany.

So basically your an anarchist?

Dades · 21-09-2008 3:30pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

If i were to mercilessly rip on how bad your clothes are and how **** the music you listen to is and how stupid your parents are its okay...because i'm not ridiculing You. do you see how this goes?

Sorry, who was mercilessly ripping on who?

Anyhow, it can't be helped if posters here find certain religious views to be ridiculous. Would you have them stay quiet?

Have you never had a little joke at the expense of Scientologists or Raelians?

Zillah · 21-09-2008 3:36pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

That does'nt happen in the modern world.

You realise that the long history of anti-homosexual laws and beliefs are a direct legacy of the Christian domination of the Western World? Thanks to the dicates of the Christian faith gay people are still not allowed to get married in many countries, and even those that have relented still relegate it to a second class "civil union".

And thats just the relative paradise of the Western World. In some Islamic nations you can be executed for adultery and homosexuality purely because the Koran says so. Leaving the Islamic faith is also a crime. And then there's the Islamic treatment of women.

We could sit here all day listing the CURRENT horrible things that religion causes in the world. You're far too naive, the days of the Crusades and Inquisiton might be gone, but religion still has a powerful, and often horrible effect on society.

besides, the vast majority of human rights violations have nothing to do with religion

The vast majority of deaths in the world aren't caused by serial murder/rapists but that doesn't mean we should excuse them.

If i were to mercilessly rip on how bad your clothes are and how **** the music you listen to is and how stupid your parents are its okay...because i'm not ridiculing You. do you see how this goes?

You're perfectly entitled to criticise my clothes/music or whatever else you feel like. However, you'll not only come across as a jerk, but also as irrational and quite petty. Those things don't really affect you, but sure, if my taste in music really is a concern to you then please, feel free to write an essay online, ring up radio talk shows etc.

So basically your an anarchist?

I wish I could convey by text the kind of sigh I just made. Its the sort of sigh that carries with it crushing, tired disappointment.

Mal-Adjusted · 21-09-2008 3:41pm

Dades wrote: »

Sorry, who was mercilessly ripping on who?

if you don't understand the context, i suggest you read through the above posts.

Anyhow, it can't be helped if posters here find certain religious views to be ridiculous. Would you have them stay quiet?

Have you never had a little joke at the expense of Scientologists or Raelians?[/quote]

Of course i have (about Scientologists anyway, never heard if the other one, i'm happy o say) and christians, Muslims, Mormans...just about any faith. and that's what they were...little.

I simply think that these people are perfectly entitled to have faith and should'nt be accosted by people clearly looking to antagonise other people.

Dades · 21-09-2008 3:48pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

I simply think that these people are perfectly entitled to have faith and should'nt be accosted by people clearly looking to antagonise other people.

Are you talking about in this thread, or the Real World™?

Because I don't see anyone in this thread being accosted, and I've no reason to believe users from here go out in public accosting people. Forgive me, I'm just trying to clear up the context of your comments.

Mal-Adjusted · 21-09-2008 4:04pm

Dades wrote: »

Are you talking about in this thread, or the Real World™?

Because I don't see anyone in this thread being accosted, and I've no reason to believe users from here go out in public accosting people. Forgive me, I'm just trying to clear up the context of your comments.

Both really, i've seen this before. comments here and on other threads (IMDb in particular) are clearly meand to be taken offence at.

Zillah · 21-09-2008 4:11pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Both really, i've seen this before. comments here and on other threads (IMDb in particular) are clearly meand to be taken offence at.

Do you think one should never say anything that could be offensive?

Dades · 21-09-2008 4:32pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Both really, i've seen this before. comments here and on other threads (IMDb in particular) are clearly meand to be taken offence at.

This is an atheist/agnostic forum. It would curious if people were to feel they couldn't express their feelings on theological beliefs. Just like in the Christianity forum we've regularly been told we're hell bound, for example. The point is if you're solid in your beliefs what others say shouldn't matter.

Mal-Adjusted · 21-09-2008 6:22pm

my argument isn't on beliefe itself, but a general attack on people decause of their beliefes, which i only really find from Atheists (sp.) I stated before, that Christians iv'e met have never had any problem with my lack of faith...so why do other Atheists have such a problem with christians?

And in response to your question, i think it is possible for two sides to have a sensible, mature discussion witouth one just trying to blast the other out of it...though iv'e yet to see it:P

Mal-Adjusted · 21-09-2008 6:26pm

Zillah wrote: »

Do you think one should never say anything that could be offensive?

not when one is being offensive just for the hell of it, purley to piss off the other crowd. that's not an argument, it's childish and arrogant

Zillah · 21-09-2008 6:27pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

so why do other Atheists have such a problem with christians?

Because their insane doctrines have resulted in centuries of injustice?

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

not when one is being offensive just for the hell of it, purley to piss off the other crowd. that's not an argument, it's childish and arrogant

Oh yes, of course, I fully agree. But when it is important? If I genuinely think religion and faith are awful things, do you think its wrong of me to offend people?

Mal-Adjusted · 21-09-2008 7:19pm

please, true religous persecution in the western world died out centuries ago. as for the middle-east...well, that's a diffirent kettle of fish

CerebralCortex · 21-09-2008 7:27pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

not when one is being offensive just for the hell of it, purley to piss off the other crowd. that's not an argument, it's childish and arrogant

I don't think anybody is being offensive for the hell of it in here. Personally I'd like to see a society that doesn't value fairy tales over rational thought when it comes to those things that effect us the most. The A+A forum is a refuge for people who think like me a society of peeps who value rationality.

CerebralCortex · 21-09-2008 7:31pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

please, true religous persecution in the western world died out centuries ago.

Are you serious? You obviously haven't heard of industrial schools or the magdelene sister's fine establishments. How about catholics and protestants in northern ireland? Or is that just political?

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

as for the middle-east...well, that's a diffirent kettle of fish

Really how so? Middle east isn't that far away from the "west".

Zillah · 21-09-2008 7:37pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

please, true religous persecution in the western world died out centuries ago.

If you're referring to imprisonment and witch burnings, sure. But there's still all that other stuff I was talking about in my other post.

I don't know if you really are as innocent as you seem or if you're just being stubborn, but have no doubt that religion is still causing huge problems in the western world right now.

as for the middle-east...well, that's a diffirent kettle of fish

Religion isn't bad as long as its far away?

Mal-Adjusted · 21-09-2008 7:47pm

Zillah wrote: »

If you're referring to imprisonment and witch burnings, sure. But there's still all that other stuff I was talking about in my other post.

I don't know if you really are as innocent as you seem or if you're just being stubborn, but have no doubt that religion is still causing huge problems in the western world right now.

most of these are not religous problems, but racial or social, with religion mainley existing as an excuse to justify them. if all religion was abolished, these problems, or at least most of them, would still exist.

Zillah wrote: »

Religion isn't bad as long as its far away?

No, i'm just saying that i don't know enough on that subject to go into it. of course there's major religous problems there

Zillah · 21-09-2008 9:00pm

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

most of these are not religous problems, but racial or social, with religion mainley existing as an excuse to justify them. if all religion was abolished, these problems, or at least most of them, would still exist.

Yes, there are plenty of issues that blur the line. But when someone asserts they're allowed to beat their children because the Bible says its ok its clearly religion at fault. When there is a powerful lobby trying to prevent Evolution from being taught in classrooms because it contradicts the Bible then its clearly religion at fault. The list goes on and on. The Pope telling Africans in AIDS ridden Africa that condoms are immoral because they spill "seed", Israel refusing to budge a single inch on their position because they believe God has promised the land to the Jews, Muslims treating their wives like property because the Koran says women are inferior to men, Hindus bathing in toxic waters because they're "holy". Like I said, we could sit here all day listing the problems that religion causes.

No, i'm just saying that i don't know enough on that subject to go into it. of course there's major religous problems there

Well trust me, they are many and extensive.

Mal-Adjusted · 21-09-2008 11:28pm

Of course there are instances of abuse, but by your definition every christian parent will beat their children. this is clearly not true. so, if some do and some don't then it's clearly not bible stuff but something else. also (by your definition) the genocide of the Jews in the 30's-40's was caused by atheism as Hitler was an atheist.

Anyway, why the hell are you trying to get me to defent religion? you're trying to force an issue on me that has *in context* little relevance, so you can back me into a corner (someone else's) and start bitching. there are many people in the catholic and muslim forum who will happily indulge you there.
read the posts above and try to stay on topic in the future:D

CerebralCortex · 22-09-2008 12:35am

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Of course there are instances of abuse, but by your definition every christian parent will beat their children. this is clearly not true. so, if some do and some don't then it's clearly not bible stuff but something else. also (by your definition) the genocide of the Jews in the 30's-40's was caused by atheism as Hitler was an atheist.

Firstly are you trolling?
Secondly you make poor (very poor) arguments when you put words in people's mouths or blatantly misinterperate what they say in their posts.
Thirdly I think you'll find Jews, Slavs, basically anyone non-aryan nor nordic were subjected to genocide because of beliefs in the superiority of the aforementioned highlighted races. Hitler was a Nazi he believed in Nazism and racial purity therefore genocide of peeps who didn't match the criteria. The Pope is a catholic he believes in catholicism which teaches abstinence until marriage and the whole seed bs therefore no condoms hence the spread of aids. Both beliefs are unsubstaniated beliefs both cause suffering. My question is, are you seeing what I'm getting at?

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Anyway, why the hell are you trying to get me to defent religion? you're trying to force an issue on me that has *in context* little relevance, so you can back me into a corner (someone else's) and start bitching. there are many people in the catholic and muslim forum who will happily indulge you there.
read the posts above and try to stay on topic in the future:D

No I don't think we are. I think it has more to do with your smug, highhorse, moral high ground pride. It has done the job of cornering you quite nicely if you were to ask me. But you won't ask me or anyone else in this forum because I don't think thats your agenda.

Mal-Adjusted · 22-09-2008 1:18am

firstly. that's funny, because i seem to be the only one here without an agenda. my argument was that one should'nt attack the faithful simply for having faith. ironicaly something for which i am being attacked for myself.
secondly. i must be a troll because i have a viewpoint that differs from the pack. look who's talking about bieng smug.
thirdly. of course i hope to have the moral highground. you seem to think that would be a bad thing. a person would'nt make an argument if they thought they didn't. grow up.

What, if anything, would constitute proof?

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