Goth Discussion

Gone West

Does anybody know a lifestyle goth with a proper job?
A proper job is €60k+

Just wondering.

Winters

FuzzyLogic wrote: »

Does anybody know a lifestyle goth with a proper job?
A proper job is €60k+

Just wondering.

And still manages to "stick it to the man" :pac:

Doctor DooM

FuzzyLogic wrote: »

Does anybody know a lifestyle goth with a proper job?
A proper job is €60k+

Just wondering.

Yes. I know two, a geneticist in England, and a pharmacologist here.

BTW no way is 60 the standard wage in Ireland!

Gone West

SDooM wrote: »

Yes. I know two, a geneticist in England, and a pharmacologist here.

BTW no way is 60 the standard wage in Ireland!

I said "proper" not standard

Nevyn

Personally it's a philosphy, a personal one and it was nice to discover that there are others who look at the world in the same off beat and at times twisted way.
That doesn't change no matter what colour I happen to be wearing my heart and sense of humour is always black.

DenMan

Spoken like a true poet Thae.

Hi SDooM. How is Madrid? Have you come across any Gothic people over there yet? Came across these links online. Plenty of Gothic clubs in the Madrid vicinity.

http://www.vamp.org/Gothic/Club/95.html
http://www.vamp.org/Gothic/Club/1581.html
http://www.vamp.org/Gothic/Club/1714.html
http://www.vamp.org/Gothic/Club/1794.html

The Castle of Buitrago del Lazoya was built in the Gothic style by the local nobleman Diego Hurtado de Mendoza. Hopefully you can go and visit it.

projectmayhem

DenMan wrote: »

Very true man. However Ireland is an isolated country which only 10-15 years ago had only really opened up to Europe. Countries like Poland, Czech Rep, Austria, Germany were influenced by the Goths once they migrated, and as a result has been integrated into their mentality. It is part of their culture and is visible everyday. Of course intolerance exists, everywhere, that is not in dispute. Gothic people are much more free to fully express themselves away from Ireland. Again this is just an observation but there is elements of truth to it. Lets hope for a more tolerant viewpoint here in the future in Ireland.

Honestly I think part of the problem with goths and the perception of such in Ireland is down to temple bar/stephens green emo kids who sit around getting drunk and generally causing nuisance. If you're older and don't know what the hell goth is, then you assume all of them are goths, and that this is what goths do. You'd have no idea there was an entire subculture filled with poets, film-makers and the like.

DenMan

projectmayhem wrote: »

Honestly I think part of the problem with goths and the perception of such in Ireland is down to temple bar/stephens green emo kids who sit around getting drunk and generally causing nuisance. If you're older and don't know what the hell goth is, then you assume all of them are goths, and that this is what goths do. You'd have no idea there was an entire subculture filled with poets, film-makers and the like.

Your dead right, one of main reasons why I wanted to set this thread up in the first place. The emo kids are exactly that, immature kids who like to get stereotyped. In fact being compared to Goths would be heaven for them, even though we know there are vast differences between both sets of groups. While in the UK I made a lot of great friends with The Gothic Community. Went to a lot of gigs, collaborated in a lot of writing work. To me they were equals and not to be looked down or ridiculed in any way.

Did get me into trouble with the locals though. Received a bloody lip when a shoe was thrown at me one night coming out of Satan's Hollow, Manchester. Called a Goth Lover by the indigenous riff raff, spat on, the usual crap. While not a Goth myself I really respect them for who they are and their inner belief. If another shoe was thrown at me again, I honestly wouldn't care, it was worth it for all the good times had over there.

Karl Hungus

projectmayhem wrote: »

You'd have no idea there was an entire subculture filled with poets, film-makers and the like.

It's also filled with appearance obsessed jerks, and drugged up assholes. You're making it out to be a subculture of intellectuals, when the reality is that it's got pretty much the same representation of idiots and assholes as any other bunch.

Now, I'm not saying that to bash the subculture, I'm just being realistic here. I did the whole goth thing when I was younger, and there certainly were some great and extremely interesting, intelligent people I've met who were also into it, but there was also a hearty representation of jerks, scumbags and idiots too. If you've ever been some of the Goth clubs in London, there's more drugs going around than at a rave. I've met loads of empty headed people who's only interests were dancing and cyberdog.

Don't get me wrong here, I do like the subculture, the girls have some of the best looking outfits, and I still listen to some of the music... But lets not make it out to be something it's not, and it's hardly some kind of bastion of intellectuals, that's Mensa.

Nevyn

Every social grouping has arse holes and idiots, it's the way of the world.
Now that being said I I found that over all the social scene in Dublin is more tolerant and open minded but more bitchy then other social groupings. But I was never one for saying you are not gtoh unless you are actively going to a club.

Doctor DooM

Thaedydal wrote: »

Every social grouping has arse holes and idiots, it's the way of the world.
Now that being said I I found that over all the social scene in Dublin is more tolerant and open minded but more bitchy then other social groupings. But I was never one for saying you are not gtoh unless you are actively going to a club.

Thats a pet peev of mine too. Who is anyone to decide whether anyone else is "good" enough to be part of a group.

And yeah tere's plenty of idiot goths, but plenty of cool and imaginative ones too.

JC 2K3

Goth is an alternative mainstream culture, not an alternative to mainstream culture.

Based on some of the descriptions in this thread, I could describe myself as a goth, but I don't, and would disgree that I am a goth because I think outside the box alot, tend to be creative and don't really subscribe to popular culture. I don't see being a goth having anything to do with these things, in fact I can't see how it has to do with anything other than fashion and music taste. If it is a fact that there are more poets, film makers and generally creative people who are into such music and fashion (whcih I actually really doubt), this is purely incidental, and smacks of elitism when it is mentioned.

Doctor DooM

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Goth is an alternative mainstream culture, not an alternative to mainstream culture.

Based on some of the descriptions in this thread, I could describe myself as a goth, but I don't, and would disgree that I am a goth because I think outside the box alot, tend to be creative and don't really subscribe to popular culture. I don't see being a goth having anything to do with these things, in fact I can't see how it has to do with anything other than fashion and music taste. If it is a fact that there are more poets, film makers and generally creative people who are into such music and fashion (whcih I actually really doubt), this is purely incidental, and smacks of elitism when it is mentioned.

Im not saying goths are automatically better than other people or anything like that, but it's definitely more than just fashion or music. There are goth communities all over the place. Google Whitby to find out more.

JC 2K3

SDooM wrote: »

Im not saying goths are automatically better than other people or anything like that, but it's definitely more than just fashion or music. There are goth communities all over the place. Google Whitby to find out more.

All Google tells me about Whitby is that there's a gothic festival on there, and it seems to be primarily focused towards music and fashion.

Perhaps you could extend the definition to encompass one's taste in aesthetics and literature, but that's about it. I mean what else is there to it? There doesn't seem to be any definite ideology or philosophy behind it.

Doctor DooM

JC 2K3 wrote: »

All Google tells me about Whitby is that there's a gothic festival on there, and it seems to be primarily focused towards music and fashion.

Perhaps you could extend the definition to encompass one's taste in aesthetics and literature, but that's about it. I mean what else is there to it? There doesn't seem to be any definite ideology or philosophy behind it.

See therein lies the problem.

It means something different to everyone.

The definition which resonates with me is the the definition given by the American Gothic musician/writer/artist Voltaire, which is that Gothic culture should be a culture which embraces individuality, and being true to ones self. For example, many overweight people gravitate to gothic culture because in ideal it should reject body stereotypes. Thus the "fat goth" jokes being bandied around (including here on boards) are actually furthering the point of the people being ridiculed. Why would they not reject culture which treats them like that?

Other people would say being goth is liking black clothes.

JC 2K3

SDooM wrote: »

See therein lies the problem.

It means something different to everyone.

You see, I have a problem with definitions like this.

You can hardly say goth has nothing to do with a certain style of music (or I suppose styles of music these days) and fashion.

I don't see how it extends any deeper than that. Surely after that it's not about being a goth, but about being an individual.

Doctor DooM

I know the definition is nebulous, but isn't that what the thread is about? What does Goth mean?

Obviously it means something drastically different to me and you, but thats ok! There is no goth king anywhere, defining the term.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

You see, I have a problem with definitions like this.

You can hardly say goth has nothing to do with a certain style of music (or I suppose styles of music these days) and fashion.

I don't see how it extends any deeper than that. Surely after that it's not about being a goth, but about being an individual.

I wouldnt say that at all. But its not just music and fashion, there's film, architecture, books, etc. I did the whitby thing myself, and that was about community to me.

Do you know about the concept of inheritence in computer programming?

Goth is a sub class of individualism, but definitely not the other way around.

Sorry for using such an obscure reference but its what I know.

keepherlit

HI, i am not a goth and would probably have been considered more of a jock than anything else. I was reading the thread to see what peoples views are on goth culture etc.., If "goth" is a form of individualism then it cant be defined by a dress code, hair style, make up etc.., To many people, it is considered the group for mainstream social outcasts. that they fit in to a sub culture and are accepted for who they are individually, yet here in lies the problem, they are trying to conform to another sterotype. I appreciate that for the majority of goths it is a positive and progressive culture, but the "temple bar crowd" has tarred you, unfortunately, with a nasty brush. I am pro any culture/ sub culture that allows people to express themselves. It is an interesting culture and like any has its ar*eholes but from my brief encounters with the goth culture it is positive.

Will

I agree with SDooM about the subclass comment, in a sense. And also agree with Karl Hungus regarding his comments about the subculture of intellectuals.

Being a part of a social group brings security, whether it is mainstream, subculture or even on the cutting edge of it all. For what it's worth I think the whole gothic thing is mainstream now. Shops like the asha 'boutique' and others wouldn't be in existence otherwise.

I've met, chatted with and drank with goths (and many other social groups). In my mind I just saw those individuals as people, nothing more, nothing less. Just because a person is gothic doesn't mean they are instantly deep thinkers, poets or bat sh!t crazy mo fo's. Each and every single person is different, you get d!cks and nice people everywhere.

Personally couldn't give a rat's ass what anyone dresses like, it's how they act that makes me decide what I think of em.

Me, I'm pierced and tattooed, maybe I could be classed as alternative looks wise, not sure, don't care. My old best mate, we were like chalk and cheese. He wore nike tracksuits, I wore slightly baggy jeans. To look at us you would never think we were best mates. Was a real headfúck for people... at the beginning. Even still, he was into heavy metal, I was into more relaxing tunes.

You can't judge someone by how they dress. To me, it's just a style of clothing people are into nowadays. The old visigoth way of life has long been forgotten, in fact I would go far as to say they aren't even related. Modern day goths came about from the punk era.

What being a goth means to you?
Ha, it's not a lifestyle. It's just a way of dressing in my mind. A goth will do no differently to me or anyone else e.g in the morning.
I get up,
have a shower,
get dressed,
eat breakfast,
go to work/college.

Tbh OP I think you are just romanticising the idea of what being a goth is.
They're just people, like you and me.

JC 2K3

Heh, I study Computer Science, so don't worry about using parallels of that nature.

SDooM wrote: »

I wouldnt say that at all. But its not just music and fashion, there's film, architecture, books, etc. I did the whitby thing myself, and that was about community to me.

Do you know about the concept of inheritence in computer programming?

Goth is a sub class of individualism, but definitely not the other way around.

So Goths are a bunch of people who have similar taste in music, fashion, literature, art etc. and who also embrace individualism?

It just seems a bit silly to include the individualism part in the definition, if it's not something universal to all goths.

I mean, you could say being a football player means something different to everyone, and one player might say that being a football player meant playing football and embracing individualism. But I would reject this. A football player is simply one who plays football. Just like a Goth is someone with a certain taste in music, fashion, literature etc. A Goth who embraces individualism is just that, not a Goth who's personal definition of "Goth" happens to encompass individualism.

On a less cynical and pedantic note, I just put on some Switchblade Symphony after reading this thread. Love that band.

Nevyn

If I was asked to name the one thing that I think unifies those who self describe as goth I would say it is a wonderful sense and enjoyment and appreciations of the morbid and the macabre. The acceptance of the darker themes to life and death.

Doctor DooM

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Heh, I study Computer Science, so don't worry about using parallels of that nature.

So Goths are a bunch of people who have similar taste in music, fashion, literature, art etc. and who also embrace individualism?

It just seems a bit silly to include the individualism part in the definition, if it's not something universal to all goths.

I mean, you could say being a football player means something different to everyone, and one player might say that being a football player meant playing football and embracing individualism. But I would reject this. A football player is simply one who plays football. Just like a Goth is someone with a certain taste in music, fashion, literature etc. A Goth who embraces individualism is just that, not a Goth who's personal definition of "Goth" happens to encompass individualism.

On a less cynical and pedantic note, I just put on some Switchblade Symphony after reading this thread. Love that band.

Depends what is the central concept... Again I bold the word should.

Goths should be a sub group of individualists. Doesn't mean they actually are.

So thaed, will I be seeing you at the horror festival?

TBH I would not call myself a goth, I just waltz in and out of that particular part of the world, anyway. I've yet to see anyone on this thread actually call themself a goth, which is interesting in itself.

JC 2K3

Thaedydal wrote: »

If I was asked to name the one thing that I think unifies those who self describe as goth I would say it is a wonderful sense and enjoyment and appreciations of the morbid and the macabre. The acceptance of the darker themes to life and death.

Best definition I think I've seen. Of course, there's more to it than that, such as the association of black and darkness with the morbid and macabre, but I think that would generally sum up its origins and core principles.

DenMan

Hi Will

Great response there. Sorry I haven't been here in a while. I just wanted to set this thread up to garner peoples feelings as to what it feels like for them personally to be a Goth. Everybody's interests and opinions are unique and different. It is human nature for people to want to be associated to a group/sub-culture. Even the most introvertive of people feel the need to be associated to a larger group, be it writers, poets, musicians etc. To automatically associate all Gothic people as being wonderful poets, writers, film makers etc would be wrong and assuming. If people are drawn to their darker psyche then it would manifest in how they portray themselves. Dress in darker clothes, read Gothic literature, listen to different music.

It is an aspect of themselves that they choose to show on the outside what they are feeling on the inside. The older they get the less they feel the need to physically show it and it becomes less evident on the outside, however it remains with them, a maturity if you will. Most people do not show that side of themselves and choose to ignore it, instead Gothic people do and embrace it. It's a personal choice based on a sub-culture they know exists and want to be part of and as a result are joining a larger community within the mainstream community.

I hope I have made some sense.

JC 2K3

DenMan wrote: »

Even the most introvertive of people feel the need to be associated to a larger group

Yup.

If only I could find the right one.....

Doctor DooM

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Yup.

If only I could find the right one.....

Looks around

You're already there

DenMan

As an example I wonder how many musicians, poets, writers etc are represented here on Boards. Quite a lot I would say. The interweb itself can be haven for so many people. Makes you think that's for sure.

Doctor DooM

DenMan wrote: »

As an example I wonder how many musicians, poets, writers etc are represented here on Boards. Quite a lot I would say. The interweb itself can be haven for so many people. Makes you think that's for sure.

I always feel suspicious of poets. Like they write songs but are too lazy to finish them.

DenMan

An inspiration thing Doomy. I have to admit I enjoy browsing the writing sections. People put up partial poems and ask for feedback. Nothing wrong with that, it is good for them to know they can get constructive feedback where otherwise they may not have access to.

How is Madrid? And how is the Gothic scene over there? Have you had much of a chance to look around in your free time? Amazing architecture and very welcoming for the Gothic Community I believe.

Karl Hungus

Now, I'm about to go on in a rather famous fashion, for which I used to be known for, and I apologise in advance, because I've been drinking heavily, must've had about 12 pints of guinness tonight, and I doubt I'm the most coherent right now... However, I do feel compelled to reply, so if this leaves you scratching your head, wondering what the hell did I just say, apologies.

Speaking from a purely anthropologistic viewpoint, the gothic subculture is the same as any other, a collection of people who hold similar interests. There's nothing unique about it in that respect, unless you hold interests that are aspired to by the gothic community. In which case it appears as special to you, and you feel enamoured by that aspect.

Personally, it was the music that was the draw, and for many, many years, one of my favourite bands was Fields of the Nephilim:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gepNUSNTbT0

I still listen to them often, and absolutely love the whole sound they pioneered, singer Carl McCoy is one of the greatest vocalists I've ever heard, and very few can come close.

For other people, it's the fashion that's the draw, and while I think that very often the **** that passes for gothic music (EBM, Electrogoth) is just dance music for people who don't want to admit they like dance music, I still respect that. People take different things from the subcutlure, and get different things from it. You'll have people from all walks of life that can find an affinity with it, so it's almost as useless defining a specific subcutlure as you would any other.

Karl Hungus

Oh, lets have some more music in this thread...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ntvORezIQ4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWvOHT0zfXY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYHmVELJLDg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNQ58zV-WkI

Also, you can never have enough Type O Negative:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMZvKX06P5U

Nevyn

SDooM wrote: »

So thaed, will I be seeing you at the horror festival?

Alas it clashes with Gealcon the 20th one. Vast and varied are the realms of my geekery.

SDooM wrote: »

I've yet to see anyone on this thread actually call themself a goth, which is interesting in itself.

Eh hello. I have done my best to explain what I means to me, having been one for the last 15 years and yes I was a Curehead even before then.

Have to say when you have the likes of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abby_Sciuto as char in mainstream tv it' not that underground.

Doctor DooM

Thaedydal wrote: »

Alas it clashes with Gealcon the 20th one. Vast and varied are the realms of my geekery.



Eh hello. I have done my best to explain what I means to me, having been one for the last 15 years and yes I was a Curehead even before then.

Have to say when you have the likes of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abby_Sciuto as char in mainstream tv it' not that underground.

Damn that Gaelcon, many years have I cursed it leaving me to be fit in by my friends who'd rather play giant jenga (do they still do that?) then see old, crap horror films

Sorry about missing the goth thing!

Karl has a point though, we're gnashing on about something thats indefinable so why not start posting gothic thingamies rather than go on about that?

Nevyn

SDooM wrote: »

Damn that Gaelcon, many years have I cursed it leaving me to be fit in by my friends who'd rather play giant jenga (do they still do that?) then see old, crap horror films

Thats leprecon not Gealcon which has the gaint Jenga.

Doctor DooM

Thaedydal wrote: »

Thats leprecon not Gealcon which has the gaint Jenga.

They had Giant Jenga the first year Gaelcon was held in the executive suite in Croke Park... which was the last time I attended!

Nevyn

SDooM wrote: »

They had Giant Jenga the first year Gaelcon was held in the executive suite in Croke Park... which was the last time I attended!

I missed that one that one had the lan at it.
Hard to believe this year is the 20th one.

Doctor DooM

Thaedydal wrote: »

I missed that one that one had the lan at it.
Hard to believe this year is the 20th one.

Do they not have LANs anymore?

JC 2K3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoSikq5y8yw

DenMan

Karl Hungus wrote: »

I've been drinking heavily, must've had about 12 pints of guinness tonight

Dude how the hell could you have drank 12 pints of Guinness, I salute you sir. I would never be able to that and more than likely would end up blind. Thanks for the response and the videos. I wholeheartedly support the showing of videos here as music is the essence to the soul.

Here is one from a song I can't get out of my head at the moment, Kryperia and The Promise. Beautiful song and the keyboard at the start is amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHuXST9CAUg

Dyr

The most important rule of being a goff: If you call yourself a goth then you arent one :pac:

mehfesto2

Do goths still exist?! Havn't seen one in AGES. Thought it had summink to do with global warming or that.

Dord

I wouldn't know, I'm not one.

DenMan

Got an email from a friend asking about The Dominion nightclub in Dublin. Haven't been there before (yet ) Can anyone tell me about it, their experiences there and is it recommended for a good night out?

Doctor DooM

DenMan wrote: »

Got an email from a friend asking about The Dominion nightclub in Dublin. Haven't been there before (yet ) Can anyone tell me about it, their experiences there and is it recommended for a good night out?

Its been a billion years since I was there, it was good fun, friendly peeps, they physically look a bit more extreme than their fibbers brethren though if someone is silly enough to care about that.

Karl Hungus

DenMan wrote: »

Got an email from a friend asking about The Dominion nightclub in Dublin. Haven't been there before (yet ) Can anyone tell me about it, their experiences there and is it recommended for a good night out?

Been there a few times fairly recently. They play a hell of a lot of dance music. Sure, they call it "Electrogoth" but it's really just dance music for pretentious people who don't want to admit they're listening to dance music. You'll rarely hear the likes of Fields of the Nephilim or anything that remotely resembles actual goth music any more. And the venue has to be one of the most overpriced places I've been to, and that's saying something.

But, with all that said, if you've a good group of mates to talk to, it's tolerable.

DenMan

Maybe we should try and organise something here and we can make a good night out of it. I'd be up for that.

Doctor DooM

DenMan wrote: »

Maybe we should try and organise something here and we can make a good night out of it. I'd be up for that.

Maybe in December, there's ALOT of beers betwixt now and then already.

Nevyn

DenMan wrote: »

Got an email from a friend asking about The Dominion nightclub in Dublin. Haven't been there before (yet ) Can anyone tell me about it, their experiences there and is it recommended for a good night out?

http://dominion.gothic.ie/

DenMan

Thanks Thaedydal

Have you been there recenty? Did you enjoy it? It does sound very promising doesn't it, and as Doomy said, we could make a stab of it for Dec.

JC 2K3

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Been there a few times fairly recently. They play a hell of a lot of dance music. Sure, they call it "Electrogoth" but it's really just dance music for pretentious people who don't want to admit they're listening to dance music. You'll rarely hear the likes of Fields of the Nephilim or anything that remotely resembles actual goth music any more.

Hehe.

Though most goth music contains a steady, solid beat and is usually danceable anyway, so you could almost say it's already a form of dance music. And Darkwave/Electrogoth has been around since the 80s, it's a bit pretentious of you to say it's not "actual goth music". And it would make sense to play that kinda stuff in a club, since dancing is what people generally do in clubs.

Looking at their playlists on their site though, I see a lot of stuff I recognise, and not much of it could really be described as electrogoth. Seems like a nice mix of Goth, Industrial, New Wave, Post Punk etc.

I've been meaning to go sometime.