Ryanair "fuel rationing" story

probe

In paragraph 6 of the GB-Times story on fuel rationing, the author states "Under European rules, every plane must carry a “contingency” load of about 5% of a trip’s fuel, and enough to divert to an alternative airport."

In the final paragraph he says "A spokesman for the CAA said it would not comment because Ryanair’s fuel policy was monitored by the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA)."

This leaves two questions in my mind:

1) If "European rules" require a 5%+ contingency reserve, how can Ryanair issue instructions limiting these reserves to "300 kg maximum"? Surely the issuing of such instructions is illegal?

2) Is the IAA doing its job properly, or is it just another dysfunctional Irish government agency like the HSE etc?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article4641399.ece

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foxhoundone

probe matey..
i live right next to belfast city airport, an i was wondering [u seem clued up on this}
what is the consumpion of fuel required {in tonnes plz}for an aeroplane to take of and land, i,m involved with the local residents group to limit planes, commings and goings
ur help an knowledge greatly needed thnks...

axer

probe wrote: »

In paragraph 6 of the GB-Times story on fuel rationing, the author states "Under European rules, every plane must carry a “contingency” load of about 5% of a trip’s fuel, and enough to divert to an alternative airport."

In the final paragraph he says "A spokesman for the CAA said it would not comment because Ryanair’s fuel policy was monitored by the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA)."

This leaves two questions in my mind:

1) If "European rules" require a 5%+ contingency reserve, how can Ryanair issue instructions limiting these reserves to "300 kg maximum"? Surely the issuing of such instructions is illegal?

2) Is the IAA doing its job properly, or is it just another dysfunctional Irish government agency like the HSE etc?

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article4641399.ece

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Maybe 300kg is enough for each destination Ryanair operate to.

*Kol*

300kg is 5% of 6000kg ( 5% being the legal requirement for contingency fuel). I would say that would cover the majority of Ryanair flights. I flew on a B737-300 recently and we only used about 2000kg for a 1hr40min flight.

highlydebased

Not another Ryanair bashing thread!

There is a legal requirment for what it must carry for extra fuel

However the captain is permitted if he justifably sees fit to ammend extra fuelload.

*Kol*

Dont forget that the decision to head to an alternate airport is made way befoe you get to minimum fuel. With 300kg on board you wont be going far!! There would be fuel pump low pressure lights coming on at that stage. I wouldn't even do a go around if there was only 300kgs of fuel left never mind head for another airport.

lostexpectation

the memo is very adversarial does ryanair hate its pilots that much?

FlutterinBantam

Load of rubbish actually.

An airline may have a "fuel policy" but the flight crew are ultimately responsible for the uplift.

If weather conditions at dest. are not good and a diversion is possible or probable the flight crew will decide on the contingency fuel.

they will allow for delays into the primary airport and a diversion to the nearest airport where the forecastweather is within limits.

No one but a total idiot would leave himself or herself up there with a critical fuel situation.

A320-200

TRIP FUEL
ALTERNATE
IFR RESV. (45MIN)
HOLD (If reqd.)
TAXI+APU

You NEED all the fuel above except Holding fuel, which is usually 30min.
If not, serious infractions will insue (Loss of operating license etc.)
When they refer to ''Extra'' Fuel, they mean on top of all the above fuel.

andy_g

i have to agree with A320 but normally what we do is we take a full tank onboard in the morning and again on AC change over or change of morning to day shift pilots.

Flyer1

Ryanair are subject to exactly the same requirements as all other airlines. They must carry a minimum reserve to go to their alternate, carry out a few missed approaches etc. It pee's me off to hear people bashing ryanair, a captain isn't going to put himself or any of his pax in harm.

foxhounde matey, don't come in to an aviation forum spouting your nonsense about wanting to reduce air travel. It's the fastest growing form of transport in the world. What annoys me is people whinge about airplanes " ohh they're noisy, ohhh they're dangerous ". These comments are generally from people who haven't a clue about aviation and all things involved. If you can stand up and swear you've never used or been involved in some form of air transport be it on a holiday, be it mail in to your house, be it the food you eat to survive, be it the medical supplies friends and family need in hospitals. Without aviation this world would be not what it is today.

yaeger

So you mormally take a full tank onboard in the morning andy_g or when you have a shift change over.............:D
So say for example your doing a manchester flight from dublin, you would top up to nearly 14tons on a A320 for example even though you only need 2 or 3, maybe 4 or 5 if you wish to tanker and make it round trip fuel...........but sure top it boss no doubt your company wont mind you carrying an extra 8tons in the TANK,,,even though that it inself would burn more fuel to carry that fuel !
So your not with ryanair then where they will make it tricky fot you to even stick 300Kgs extra on according to article above? emmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm INTERESTING very interesting

Me thinks someone is living in make believe land !

A Dub in Glasgo

Flyer1 wrote: »

foxhounde matey, don't come in to an aviation forum spouting your nonsense about wanting to reduce air travel. It's the fastest growing form of transport in the world. What annoys me is people whinge about airplanes " ohh they're noisy, ohhh they're dangerous ". These comments are generally from people who haven't a clue about aviation and all things involved. If you can stand up and swear you've never used or been involved in some form of air transport be it on a holiday, be it mail in to your house, be it the food you eat to survive, be it the medical supplies friends and family need in hospitals. Without aviation this world would be not what it is today.

Surely the A&A forum is for all aspects of A&A, not just those that worship A&A?

Flyer1

I'm fed up of listening to people whining about aviation, it's here and it's here to stay, I often hear people bitching that aeroplanes make a lot of noise when they take off. Yet these people proceed to build their house when the airport has been there far longer then their house. Classic example of this is Weston.

foxhoundone

well i,m not anti airplane . i use them fairly often but belfast, being in a bowl theirs little dispercile of the fumes generated from take off an landing, what put me on to this isnt so much the noise but the contamination of the surrounding area..{ie my home} and the graduale increace in skin and lung related illness, hence the need to regulate commings an goings of flights into belfast city airport.. there is aldergrove away out in the sticks plenty of acces to it by rail and bus and good winds to clear fumes ...

Tenger

Flyer1 wrote: »

I'm fed up of listening to people whining about aviation, it's here and it's here to stay, I often hear people bitching that aeroplanes make a lot of noise when they take off. Yet these people proceed to build their house when the airport has been there far longer then their house. Classic example of this is Weston.

Or on a larger scale anyone who built/bought near Heathrow in the last 30 years.

foxhoundone

its not the noise its the fumes from taking of and landing.theres no reqirment to have an airport in a populated city limit...

*Kol*

foxhoundone wrote: »

its not the noise its the fumes from taking of and landing.theres no reqirment to have an airport in a populated city limit...

The fumes?? Are there no cars or lorries driving around your area? Where else would you have an airport other than where there are plenty of peope who can avail of it? It's a pain to have to travel for ages to get to an airport especially if you are getting on a short flight.

foxhoundone

*Kol* wrote: »

The fumes?? Are there no cars or lorries driving around your area? Where else would you have an airport other than where there are plenty of peope who can avail of it? It's a pain to have to travel for ages to get to an airport especially if you are getting on a short flight.

of course theres cars, buses, trains, ferrys, and now hawken big noisy dirty airoplanes.. all in the catchment area of belfast, if it wasnt for the rain we would be like beijing, im for the envioroment, not so SUITS can get about easier,...

axer

foxhoundone wrote: »

not so SUITS can get about easier,...

and products get cheaper in price and tourists visit the country and the economy grows which brings jobs and other spin-offs. Sure who wants that?

foxhoundone

axer wrote: »

and products get cheaper in price and tourists visit the country and the economy grows which brings jobs and other spin-offs. Sure who wants that?

yeah right, we have tescos, ikea ,sainsburys,[ cheap min wage labour}
all our heavy industry shiped to the mainland{no new labour votes here}
and the tourists only visit to look at the murals.
and dont talk to me about the economy, we have to drive over the border to get cheaper fuel.

*Kol*

foxhoundone wrote: »

of course theres cars, buses, trains, ferrys, and now hawken big noisy dirty airoplanes.. all in the catchment area of belfast, if it wasnt for the rain we would be like beijing, im for the envioroment, not so SUITS can get about easier,...

I'm afraid we will have to agee to differ there. That's my living!

Flyer1

As previously said, what about the thousands of cars, trucks, buses, trains etc. plodding around Belfast. When taking off the aircraft have probably a ground roll of about 30 seconds and are climbing in excess of 2000ft/min so they're hardly buzzing around all day at low level.

On landing they're on reasonably low power settings giving off low amounts of pollution.

I depend on aviation for my work, and it's my hobby aswell so I won't be giving in either .

Ryanair have their engines de-rated so as to reduce pollutants etc. so they are doing more than their fair bit to the environment. If you look at America, people are cruising along in 5 and 6 litre trucks doing 10MPG. Why not says I ?

Re skin and lung illness, smoking tobacco has a far far worse effect then an aircraft taking off from the nearby airport. If you don't smoke you'll surely be at some stage in a room where someone is smoking, 20 minutes of this has to be worse for you then an aircraft 15 miles away spending 30 seconds on the roll.

I'm not a believer in all this green eco waffle, to be honest it's a reason for the Government to screw people in the wallet for something that will never be stopped. The earth goes through natural cycles of warming up and cooling down. A little knowledge for people is a dangerous tool

foxhoundone

On landing they're on reasonably low power settings giving off low amounts of pollution, hmm what about reverse thrust,...Bring back the R101/R102, best form of flight ever...

A320-200

foxhoundone wrote: »

On landing they're on reasonably low power settings giving off low amounts of pollution, hmm what about reverse thrust

Reverse isn't used every landing.Noise abatement, runway length etc. might not warrant it.
It is used as much as possible to save on the brakes. Even when its used i the MAX N1 is 70%. Most PF's would use 40-50 N1 max.
On approach the N1 is around 55-65 N1.

mikemac

foxhoundone wrote: »

all our heavy industry shiped to the mainland.

To the mainland :eek:

Quick question foxhoundone.
A quick google search shows the airport was built in 1937 and became a commerical airport in 1983
You want to limit flight so can you tell us who was in the area first, you or the airport?

foxhoundone

well the city airport started with only a few flights a day, and test planes from SHORTS[THE AIRBUS}
now its up to 36+ and their looking to extend past 2300hrs landing times{they start cranking up those planes at about 0300hrs in the morning} thats almost 24/7 operation with blanant lack of comunication with local residents,.. if you lived less than a hundred metres from that racket ud protest to
an just for a bit of history they manufacterd the sunderland flieing boat at SHORTS
which spoted the BISMARK,..
oh yeah my family has lived here since we were shiped here as slaves from scotland 400 odd yrs ago by the english,,,.. LMAO

Flyer1

You've a terrible argument foxhounde and you've no facts to back it up. I'd happily swap houses with you to live that near an airport.

DeVore

Flyer1, there IS an "ignore" option if you dont want to see it, but I dont think you can say "no one is to talk about that in here".



Thats my job!


But back on topic (and FoxHoundOne... you took this off topic with the first reply... *wags finger*, start a new thread, dont hijack someone elses....).


What I would like to know is: If a captain said "I think I want more reserve fuel then that" would he get it? Would it affect his promotion possibilities or his job? Would he think that it might?

I absolutely HATE Ryanair because of the treatment of my father a year ago but I acknoledge what they have done for the aviation industry in terms of cheaper flights. I dont think that lets them cut corners though and I'm interested to know if those corners are being cut or pressure is there to cut them while the company washes its hands...

"Fuel Reserve vs Flight Costs" does seem very much like "Passenger Safety versus Corporate Profits". N'est Pas?

DeV.

Sizzler

Was out with a guy from easyjet about 2 months ago and he told me that they were instructed to shut down one engine as soon as they landed and also instructed to adjust flight plans for the optimum fuel consumption.

Probably not shocking but plenty of airlines not adopting this practice to be honest !

wittymoniker

good airanship to shut down engine(s) on taxi in but most have time limits before they should be shut down, ie 3 mins at idle.
flight plan fuel is always, by definition, sufficient for the sector but captains, esp in low fares, high frequency ops, have huge experience of the destinations they operate to so will know if they can expect holding, extended vectors, speed control, etc. most will pad or round up final fuel required, always have and always will. the final decision will always rest with the captain, (s)he will take whatever fuel (s)he wants and if needs must, will explain the decision after the event. any extra uplift is recorded on the voyage report so usually no explanation needed.
think this whole thing was just a slow news day or a ryanair bashing exercise.