Ryanair "fuel rationing" story

foxhoundone

diverdriver wrote: »

Say what? Are you sure you're not seeing into the future. I don't remember that happening? LOL!

it was in the news the other week. I suppose i should have said emerging, i was thinking whats this about, i can only assume its to stop BA buying euopean manufacterd planes an AA being he biggest share holder influancing the board to buy yank.., just my theory:)

DeVore

Flyer1 wrote: »

See this is what REALLY annoys me. People saying " Ryanair cut corners, etc ". They simply cannot do this ! Aviation is so tightly regulated that an airline simple can NOT cut corners. If a captain feels he needs more fuel due to winds aloft, alternate diversions etc. it's his word and he gets it. He didn't spend 3 years bursting his nuts and spending thousands of €'s to jeopradise a €45 million aircraft and it's passengers.

But the company has made it very clear that they dissapprove and that they are taking names of those who request more fuel. Thats implicit pressure on the pilot, yes?

Ryanair have one of the best safety records in the game, they've never had a serious accident in all the years. The aircraft they operate are all less than 7 years old and regularly maintained !

Thats enforced by the authorities (the maintenance I mean). I travel on them a lot because I have to; no one else flies to Malta from here or I would fly them. In fact I will pay 100 euros MORE to fly with anyone else then Ryanair.

If your Dad had trouble with them that's poor luck. You find me an airline that has never ever had trouble with any passengers. I've flown with Ryanair several times, and I have to say I love the no hassle, crap free way they go about travelling.

Sorry, I didnt mention Ryanair before in my precious two posts though obviously this thread does mostly relate to them. My father (72 and partially deaf) was accused of assault (completely falsely) and accused of "air rage" which is a joke (he is the most peaceful, placid calm man you could ever meet, and I was sitting beside him for the whole time). But this is not important, I mentioned it because I felt my feelings about the company should be clear but I still have asked questions YOU havent answered. (see above).

A question is not responsible for the person asking it, it stands on its own or it doesnt.


FOXHOUNDONE I have warned you already, stop taking this thread off topic and start your own about your questions, you'll get more answers and also you wont get kicked by me because this is your last warning. kthxbye.

DeV.

wittymoniker

DeVore wrote: »

But the company has made it very clear that they dissapprove and that they are taking names of those who request more fuel. Thats implicit pressure on the pilot, yes?




the truth is that not many captains take unjustified extra fuel, justified being for anticipated holding, weather etc. there is no need. it is not just a ryanair specific thing to question extra fuel uplifted, nor is this new news, been the culture in FR for a long time. like i said, i think it was a slow news day and as is evident, people love to indulge in a bit of FR bashing, including me, we all have our gripes!

derry

foxhoundone

I myself ant no expert on the subject but studied some fuel figures from various aircraft for various reason

Airlines dont like parting with figures as then you know thier costs and then start bitching why the ticket cost 100 euros when the fuel used cost only 5 euros

I have seen the UK anti planes move at some airport to ban short haul flights as being very wasteful of fuel and it makes extra noise for them so best translation to me is they can live with long haul but don't want short haul

Real snake poison suit themselfs types


Basicaly This type of picking on aircraft as the big bad demon gas guzzeler falls flat when you research the numbers

It makes sense really as aircraft companies want to make profits and use as little fuel as possible


So the normal measure is passenger miles per gallon rated at 80% capasity of plane

Simplex Example if a 737 has 50MPG passenger seat this means that every passenger used one gallon of fuel to go 50 miles

So to transport 170 passengers from a 180 seat aircraft a distance of 500 miles we would need
500 miles /50 MPG pasenger seat = 10 gallons total per passenger

170 passengers makes 170*10 gallons makes 1700 gallons

1700 gallons *4.55 = 7735 litres

Fuel is about 0.85 density per litre so 7735*0.85 = 6574 kg or 6.6 tons

Now when you go to sites like NTSB in the USA and you look up the stats the average for planes is very good

Lets compare it to cars

average car gets 30mpg
one person in a car means 30 MPG passenger seat
two people in a car means 60 MPG passenger seat
3 people in a car means 90 MPG passenger seat (which is classed as norm)
4 people in a car means 120 MPG passenger seat (which is classed as full)

The aircraft statistics work of 80 % capistity or more like the three people in a car system

The average new 737 sized planes is about 60 MPG per passenger seat so not to bad

The bigger newer planes like airbus 500 seat 380 are 90 MPG per passenger seat so very good

The bigger newer planes like airbus 800 seat 380 are estimated 120 MPG per passenger seat even better


Each year the aircrafts makers improve the engines and planes and use less fuel which makes more profits for the owners of those planes


Most airlines replace engines to the newwer types within a few years as that can give more fuel economy even if the airframe cant be changed

But really I cant see what difference fuel figure can be for your case other than your on a anti plane trip and want to warp data to suit your cuase

I saw the English Independent newspaper a few years back claiming planes only got 10 MPG per passenger seat or some such nonsense obviously they didn't check the data before printing

I informed them of the errors of their ways and for whatever reason they never seem to have tried that stupid stunt again

In fact most of the pollution you experience may be from military aircraft as often they are using much older engines with more oil spewing from them and have no need to cut back on gas guzzeler engines

Or you might be picking up unburnt fuel emmisions from electric power stations of ferry ships

The reality is aircraft are very efficient with fuel and that explains why they can even on short haul like London Leeds still make a profit and keep passengers more happy than similar train solutions which can often cost a whole lot more money for the same small trip


The new generation jet prop engines with a strange wide multi blade prop are expected to even improve short haul run fuel consumption figure to the tune of 30% plus improvements

The other new generation planes like Dream liner mostly made with composites which reduce weight a whole lot and therefore fuel needed are expected to improve fuel figure again to the tune of 30% plus improvements


So attacking planes as fuel guzzelers is a waste of time as they look set to explode in growth from excellent fuel figures

The issue of the Pilots and fuel rates is complex

Most Ryan air are going from one lost in nowhere ville arse hole airport to another lost in nowhere ville arse hole airport with little or no air traffic and so can land and take off at will with no stacking

My guess is 90% of the Ryan air fleet planes use within a few liters the same amount of fuel per flight on that particular run as they did for the last few years

That means bean pushers can spot an extra fiver spent on fuel for a flight and can lead to these cost cutting drives

The rules are so tight in avation and the fines for getting things wrong means a lot of this rumpus is bean pusher demanding crap from pilots and pilots pushing back as they know full well they can as they fly the things so their ass is on the line also


I hate flying Ryan Air mostly as I often travel over weight in luggage and that risks extra costs with Ryan air
Also the crappy airports they go to

But safety wise I have no issues with Ryan air so far as all the planes are new well maintianed and pilots seem to be well and fully trained


Derry

Davidth88

My opinion,

Ryanair has a lot of customer service issues , mostly because it's absent from the CEO downwards. They also have a lot of issues about the way they charge although transparent I feel a lot of the charges border on the sneaky ( for example the wheelchair charge etc etc )

However as far as safety is concerned I have seen no issues , this is just paper talk , like a lot of us the media ' love to hate ' Ryanair, and therefore jump on anything ( for example the silly channel 4 despatches programme a few years ago )

Ryanair I am sure operate within guidelines , otherwise I would hope they would get caught/fined ( like the airline fined recently for flying with a defective aircraft in the UK recently )

If you look at the way the recent incidents with their aircraft were handled, for example the emergency landing in France , it was textbook, yet what did we hear from the media ' TERROR AT 30 K FEET blah blah blah ' . I have friends who work for a certain large airline ( flight crew ) who have had this happen to them , when do we get , a small paragraph if that in the paper the next day.

DeVore

The reason for the sensitivity towards low cost airlines when they have emergency issues comes from the very real concerns the public have that along with cabin service and frills, safety may also be jeoparadised in the never ending press to make profits. Hence any such event is going to be scrutinised closely and reported widely. I think thats fair as that is the job of a free press, to investigate and report. Its as much to ensure that the authorities are forcing safety to be out of the sights of the beancounters. I think that that constant vigilance is a good thing as it keeps them on the straight and narrow.

DeV.

derry

Went on flight a few weeks ago with Gael Futura
(now gone belly up which is a pity as they seemed to very good to me )

The hostess and her methods reminded me what I forgot about Ryan Air hostesses as she exibited a few traits like them but they were very mild in comparison to the Ryan air traits (and I soppose asking for a window seat when the plane was 100% capisity might have got up her skirt )



If your into a bit of S&M definitly fly with Ryan air your in for a treat
Whatever illisions you might have are quickly shattered as they seemed to have trained in Achwich torture camp

Evertything is quick stactico command sit stand jump whatever
The service or lack of is something else
But if you enjoy being stuck in a tube with dominating type Air hostesses that seem to enjoy the torture routine that is the airline to go with:pac::pac:

I mean I know the Airhostesss REAL job is really to get to the passengers off the plane in 90 seconds in an emergency and the dishing out the drinks is a frill but the goose stepping hard edge isn't my cup of tea (Tea / coffee which you pay for with Ryan air and most outfits these days ) get it never mind :D

Derry

axer

derry wrote: »

Went on flight a few weeks ago with Gael Futura
(now gone belly up which is a pity as they seemed to very good to me )

The hostess and her methods reminded me what I forgot about Ryan Air hostesses as she exibited a few traits like them but they were very mild in comparison to the Ryan air traits (and I soppose asking for a window seat when the plane was 100% capisity might have got up her skirt )

huh?

derry wrote: »

If your into a bit of S&M definitly fly with Ryan air your in for a treat
Whatever illisions you might have are quickly shattered as they seemed to have trained in Achwich torture camp

Evertything is quick stactico command sit stand jump whatever

huh?

derry wrote: »

The service or lack of is something else

What service are you looking for? Room service?

derry wrote: »

But if you enjoy being stuck in a tube with dominating type Air hostesses that seem to enjoy the torture routine that is the airline to go with:pac::pac:

huh?

derry wrote: »

I mean I know the Airhostesss REAL job is really to get to the passengers off the plane in 90 seconds in an emergency and the dishing out the drinks is a frill but the goose stepping hard edge isn't my cup of tea (Tea / coffee which you pay for with Ryan air and most outfits these days ) get it never mind :D

huh? What exactly were you expecting on your flight? Free food, free drinks, a massage?

derry

Not really but seems to me the other low budget airlines throw in a smile for free

Absolutly nothing with Ryan Air is free so whats next will they will charge extra for the bog roll or for each flush of the bog ????

Lucky for me 90% of the time when I get to make flights I can find the flight with another outfit for the same price or similar price when real comparisons are factored in as the Ryan air flight so I am able to avoid them

But sometimes there is no choice and its Ryan Air flight so I bite the bullet and try my best to adapt the no free smile policy they got and definitly dont do excess bagage and prepare for the all the issues of arriving at arsehole airports

But now you mention it massage could be a intersting idea

Derry

axer

derry wrote: »

Not really but seems to me the other low budget airlines throw in a smile for free

Absolutly nothing with Ryan Air is free so whats next will they will charge extra for the bog roll or for each flush of the bog ????

Lucky for me 90% of the time when I get to make flights I can find the flight with another outfit for the same price or similar price when real comparisons are factored in as the Ryan air flight so I am able to avoid them

But sometimes there is no choice and its Ryan Air flight so I bite the bullet and try my best to adapt the no free smile policy they got and definitly dont do excess bagage and prepare for the all the issues of arriving at arsehole airports

But now you mention it massage could be a intersting idea

Derry

There has always been a smile by the air hostess when I got on the flight. Why would you do excess baggage anyway

Deacon Blues

Listened to the ATC stream of the Ryanair tailstrke incident.

Thought it was interesting that the only pilots who told ATC that 15 minutes in the hold would cause them fuel problems were Aer Lingus and (I think) Aer Arran.

15 minutes !!!!!!!

Meanwhile the Ryanairs were sitting in the hold with no problem.

highlydebased

The Aer Lingus' etc may have been holding elsewhere previously.....

FlutterinBantam

Or they may have been telling a little porky:rolleyes:

highlydebased

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Or they may have been telling a little porky:rolleyes:

Or that. lol.

Deacon Blues

Neon-Circles wrote: »

The Aer Lingus' etc may have been holding elsewhere previously.....

Yes they could. They also could have been dumping fuel all the way across the Irish Sea, but that's an equally silly explanation. Not saying they weren't holding elsewhere, because I don't know, but you don't really believe that do you ??

The other explanation, that they were telling porkies, is actually more likely, because I've heard that from other sources independently, but it does seem rather disingenuious to imply that you may be nearing a critical fuel situation in order to "jump the queue", and keep your on-time stats. It's also very short sighted, since if the media were to be alerted to the fact that it's not Ryanair, but Aer Lingus who appear to be carrying minimum fuel, leading to problems when they have to hold, their focus may change.

derry

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Or they may have been telling a little porky:rolleyes:

I dont think when your flying a jet which eats tons per hour of fuel its a good idea to tell porkies

Every time ATC gets notification of low fuel alerts that is logged and might even go into flight incident reports

If a pilot says there is a fuel issue then there probably is likely to be a fuel issue and some sort of one up manship why did you jump the queue stuff

In new york a south amercan 707 crashed when stacked up it ran out of fuel

After that rules for clearance to land from fuel emergencies were ramped up and request for landing from short fuel is a reportable flight incident and pilots prefer to avoid that kinda thing


Derry

Deacon Blues

They didn't actually declare a fuel emergency. What they said was, that 15 minutes in the hold would cause them fuel problems, and could ATC look at vectoring them for an approach to runway 16. Once one said it, others chimed in with "we'll have problems too, can you give us vectors" type requests. The Ryanairs sat in the stack quietly, (except for one idiot who kept asking an ATCO, who was under great pressure dealing with an abnormal situation, and handling it well, "what is the nature of the emergency". I can understand his concern for another aircraft, particularly a company aircraft, but the airwaves were crowded, and he was wasting bandwidth asking her questions she didn't have the answer to.)

My point with this was that the media are bashing Ryanair for (to paraphrase) "cutting corners on safety by not carrying enough fuel", but when something happens where there's a slight delay, Ryanair aircraft appear unaffected, but other airlines start saying that they'll have fuel problems after 15 minutes. It's just very ironic, and goes to prove that you can't believe all you read.

FlutterinBantam

Exactly

Foggy43

I am just thinking back a few years to an occasion when George Bush was to leave Ireland (SNN). As a security measure no flights would be allowed in within a certain time before Air Force 1's departure but there could be exceptions.
I listened in on 124.7, 121.4 and 118.7.

For some strange reason all aircraft arriving in SNN around that time did not have enough fuel to hold. A coincidence, I am sure.

irishatco

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Or they may have been telling a little porky:rolleyes:

Maybe, but achieves nothing. Unless an emergency is declared, they aren't skipping the queue, so as a general rule the answer will be "you're EAT is xx:xx, advise your alternate"