All Ireland Final 2008 KERRY Vs TYRONE

blackbelt

kaimera wrote: »

ha, I was in a gaff beside croke park yday and I didn't know who won the game until after midnight when I managed to get online :pac:

ha...brilliant.i wanted to go then just had an uncharacteristic change of heart and said fcuk it.:D

kevmy

DDC1990 wrote: »

Ah come off it, Tyrone put in as many if not more high tackles the Kerry, Kerry just didn't throw themselves to the floor.
As for Tyrone having a better bench... what did Mulligan do , besides dive? Cavanagh got a tap over point after a poor Diarmuid Murphy kick out... nothing else, McGuigan did SFA, Hughes kicked 3 balls horribly wide and Marc Ó Sé hammered O'Neill... he layed off a simple ball for the goal but everybody is going on about it as if it was the pass of the century!
Darran O'Sullivan was more effective then the lot of them.

As for the Mayo minors, ye would have lost only for a Kerryman (Aiden O'Shea, nephew of the great Jack O'Shea) remember that. Fantastic performance from him won midfield on his own and kicked some fantastic points.

I didn't see one high tackle from the Tyrone boys yesterday and I know well there not angels. They can be cynical enough on their day but then so can Kerry. You can keep your sour grapes though Tyrone are deserving winners.

I taught Hughes did well apart from the shooting and McGuigan done the simple things well Cavanagh wasn't on that long. I'm not saying they all done great but tbh I'd say most teams would be well glad to have their bench. And bar Darren O Sullivan (who should have been starting) none of the Kerry subs done much either.

Well Jeez tis a bit of a low blow about Aiden O Shea. He's played all his football in Mayo it's not like we robbed him off ye last year. The only time he's been to Kerry is on holidays.

SetantaL wrote: »

Tommy Walsh is being groomed for midfield.

Expect to see his younger brother Barry John lining out in the forwards in the next year or two- another Monster.

Fair enough point about Tommy Walsh but I don't think he's of a Darragh O Sé level and won't be for a few years.
As for Barry John if he plays as well for the seniors as he did in the semi final (and replay) then we'll all have nothing to worry about

Morgans wrote: »

I think the Tyrone bench were all great players. And its no bad thing to call on experience but none of them made any impact to the result of the game. McGuigan, O'Neill, and Mulligan - players of the year before - were good players but no longer are they good enough to start in an AI Final. Not because they arent fit enough, just not quick enough or good enough. All the nonsense spoken about O'Neill and Galvin before the game was just that - nonsense.

I know the atrocious Ger Canning makes up a lot of stuff completely off the top of his head, but I dont think anyone had Kerry as overwhelming favourites, or expected an easy win. They maybe deserved to be favourites just about but apart from Liam Hayes everybody seemed to think it was going to be tight. It certainly wasnt any sort of surprise to see Tyrone win, well apart for Ger Canning. I dont want to move the arguemnt off topic, but how bad does he have to get before RTE consider replacing him.

Its a fine line between winning and being completely walloped off the pitch seemingly, and well done to McConnell for coming up with the save that won the AI.

I wouldn't write of McGuigan, O'Neill and Mulligan just yet. O'Neill will improve again when he gets more games at this level, McGuigan had such bad injuries it's a wonder he's around at all. A fella who is that tough won't be satisfied with a spot on the bench. Mulligan is a confidence player. His confidence is low at the moment but when he comes good he can do damage.

Agree that Canning is an idiot and that it is a fine line between winning and losing but I don't think you could say another other than Tyrone deserved that win. The played better on the day, better attitude and better football.

aidan24326

Seanies32 wrote: »

Dooher just keeps going and going, he was poor the first 20 minutes but scored probably the 2 best points of the day.

When O'Rourke said in 03 that he'd eat his hat if Tyrone won an AI with him on it, I agreed!

Fecking 3 hats now! The most improved player of the last 10 years!

Agree totally. I have to admit I wasn't a fan of Dooher either a few years ago, he looked to me to be a guy who just ran around alot. How wrong I was.

mdwexford wrote: »

Brian Sheehan has been a waste of a player all season, hes is unfit, slow and lazy, let Gooch take the frees and there is no point in having him on the field. He should have been replaced by Galvin at half time as the writing was on the wall at that stage imo, dont know how Kerry were ahead at half time

Sheehan didn't do that bad yesterday, he worked a bit more than I thought he would, but I'd agree that he's only there for the frees and doesn't contribute enough from general play to warrant a starting place. Brosnan also contributed very little to the game and Pat O'Shea was slow to make changes there.

DDC1990 wrote: »

Im reading comments about Donnaghy not playing well, and that is true, but anyone could see that Donnaghy wasn't fit. His knee injury just never healed quick enough. He couldn't run, or jump, and the ball in from the half forwards was poor to say the least.

Then why wasn't he taken off? Contrary to reports of Kerry's strength in depth, they didn't have an awful lot on the bench yesterday. Galvin and Darren O'Sullivan were always going to get a run but there wasn't alot else.

Morgans wrote: »

But Kevin McStay's comment on the sunday game that while the finishing margin was 4 points, it could have been 10 is patent nonsense. The save won the game. It a fine line, Tyrone got their goal. Kerry didnt

That's a silly comment alright. The game was there for the taking for either team right up to the last few minutes. Had Declan O'Sullivan's goal chance gone in Kerry would probably have won. A fine line for sure. And credit to Pascal McConnell for a superb match-winning save, not many teams would have a sub goalie of that quality.

Morgans wrote: »

I know the atrocious Ger Canning makes up a lot of stuff completely off the top of his head, but I dont think anyone had Kerry as overwhelming favourites, or expected an easy win. They maybe deserved to be favourites just about but apart from Liam Hayes everybody seemed to think it was going to be tight. It certainly wasnt any sort of surprise to see Tyrone win, well apart for Ger Canning. I dont want to move the arguemnt off topic, but how bad does he have to get before RTE consider replacing him.

Canning is terrible alright. He comes out with some awful crap. Darragh Maloney is a much better commentator.

As for Liam Hayes, I remember when he used to write for The Sunday Press years ago and he used to write some great articles, but he's lost the plot altogether the last while.

kevmy wrote: »

I taught Hughes did well apart from the shooting and McGuigan done the simple things well Cavanagh wasn't on that long. I'm not saying they all done great but tbh I'd say most teams would be well glad to have their bench. And bar Darren O Sullivan (who should have been starting) none of the Kerry subs done much either

Darren O'Sullivan should have started for sure. He did more in a few minutes than Brosnan did in the whole game.

As for Barry John if he plays as well for the seniors as he did in the semi final (and replay) then we'll all have nothing to worry about

He may not have played well against Mayo (he was well marked to be fair) but he's a real talent. I first saw him in the minor semi against Galway last year and he was outstanding. The only problem is he's not the most mobile (a kind way of saying he's a bit lazy) and needs the ball fed in to him. But there's no doubting his potential.

I wouldn't write of McGuigan, O'Neill and Mulligan just yet. O'Neill will improve again when he gets more games at this level, McGuigan had such bad injuries it's a wonder he's around at all. A fella who is that tough won't be satisfied with a spot on the bench. Mulligan is a confidence player. His confidence is low at the moment but when he comes good he can do damage

O'Neill hasn't played well since 2005 (even when fit) and it's hard to know if we'll ever see him at his best again. Mulligan would have benefited from more game time, you're right in saying that he's very much a confidence player. Brian McGuigan has done well to get back to this level at all as you say, and I thought he did ok when he came on. Nothing flash but just went about his job quietly and effectively.

The gamble of brining in O'Neill didn't work at all though. He was completely anonymous for most of the game and I thought they might even have taken him off again in the last 10/15 mins.

helpisontheway

One Kerrymans opinions
Pat o Sheas mistakes-
1.Started the wrong team,Reidy or Brosnan should never have started.Griffin and anybody else would have done.
2.Galvin was obviously not match fit ad any u14 football coach in the country would know if their players were fit or not.He should not have played at all and the team should have been told this.I think they tought when he came on theyd raise their game but he had no effect both on team morale and in play.
3.He must have told them to keep driving high ball into the full forward line even if its not working lads.Totally predictable and no plan B.
4.Sheehan had the worst performance by a Kerry player i have ever seen but was left on for 65 minutes,madness!Then he brought a midfielder in Moran into the full forward line when they needed to win the ball at midfield first.Idiotic!
5.Why doesnt he take time in training to teach Diarmuid O Sullivan how to vary his kick outs.There was more imagination in the primary schools game at half time.
6.He has no control over alot of his players full stop and hes not the most commanding or inspiring manager in the country either.

Mickey Hartes mistakes-
1.He deprived a player of an run in the All Ireland final by playing O Neill who lets face it was beat off the field besides one pass.Is this the message we want sent out to kids,if you train hard and play all year we still may use somebody who might be better than you who comes in in the last minute,sorry!

The Referee-
1.He kept Tyrone in the game in the first half with some very soft frees.
2.O Mahoney and Griffin should have been sent off but he chickened out.Donaghy and O Ses were only yellows though.
3.Donaghy should have had at least 2 penaltys and McMahon should have got 2yellows and off.The Umpires and linesmen should have taken more responsibility here.McMahon was the most cynical player on the pitch.

The unfortunate replacement of John Devine may have been a blessing in disguise beacause McConnell was outstanding.Doohers first 2 points were outstanding and Kavanagh was Magnificent.Tyrone are collectively an excellent team but they also have some fantastic individuals.Their midfield when holmes came on were top class.They still struggle slightly for forwards though.All in all Tyrone definetly deserved the win and were by far the better team.
Kerry were just bad,the hunger wasnt there and Pat o Shea made all the wrong decisions.The big players never stood up.The cynicism that has crept into the Kerry team is very disturbing with Dara O Se most prevalent here.On a personal note i was very disapointed that Russell wasnt brought on,he deserved it for all hes given to Kerry.Hes actually been one of the best forwards in the club scene this season so could also have made a difference.
However the future is bright for Kerry,Moran,Tommy walsh,Barry John Walsh,Darren and Declan o Sullivan,Tomas Mac an Tsaoir,Bohane,Donaghy,Young, along with the experience of the 2 o Se's,Gooch,O Mahoney and others.We will be back with a bang next year but maybe better off without Pat and Dara!

premierstone

helpisontheway wrote: »

Mickey Hartes mistakes-
1.He deprived a player of an run in the All Ireland final by playing O Neill who lets face it was beat off the field besides one pass.Is this the message we want sent out to kids,if you train hard and play all year we still may use somebody who might be better than you who comes in in the last minute,sorry!

The Referee-
1.He kept Tyrone in the game in the first half with some very soft frees.
2.O Mahoney and Griffin should have been sent off but he chickened out.Donaghy and O Ses were only yellows though.
3.Donaghy should have had at least 2 penaltys and McMahon should have got 2yellows and off.The Umpires and linesmen should have taken more responsibility here.McMahon was the most cynical player on the pitch.

We will be back with a bang next year but maybe better off without Pat and Dara!

How can you slag off or even question Mickey Harte who has proven himself as one of if not the greatest managers in the history of gaelic football.

The ref had a fine game imo.

Only for dara o se the game wud have been over alot earlier than the last 5 minutes

aidan24326

helpisontheway wrote: »

Mickey Hartes mistakes-
1.He deprived a player of an run in the All Ireland final by playing O Neill who lets face it was beat off the field besides one pass.Is this the message we want sent out to kids,if you train hard and play all year we still may use somebody who might be better than you who comes in in the last minute,sorry!

As I said in a previous post I don't understand why he was left on at all. He was a passenger all through the game and it could have been costly. I wonder was it sort of a 'political' decision by Mickey Harte to leave him on? What I mean is, with rumours of some discord between himself and Mickey Harte, maybe Harte didn't want to rock the boat further by taking him off? There seems no other justification for leaving on a player who is completely off the pace of the game.

Just wondering does anyone know why O'Neill looked so disconsolate at the end? He wasn't exactly in celebratory mood.

smashey

aidan24326 wrote: »

Just wondering does anyone know why O'Neill looked so disconsolate at the end? He wasn't exactly in celebratory mood.

O'Neill went straight to the tunnel after the game and didn't want to take part in the presentation as he felt is should have been for those who were involved all year. Owen Mulligan, and I think Gourley and Enda McGinley persuaded him to join in. Some one of them told him that they had a winner's medal from 2005 and wouldn't have it only for him.

helpisontheway

premierstone wrote: »

How can you slag off or even question Mickey Harte who has proven himself as one of if not the greatest managers in the history of gaelic football.

The ref had a fine game imo.

Only for dara o se the game wud have been over alot earlier than the last 5 minutes

I wouldnt argue for a second that Mickey Harte isnt one of the best managers in History.Imo which i am entitled too someone who worked there arse off for 10 months didnt get a game whereas someone who didnt did.Its a question of fairness,not a question of if Harte has proven if he is a great manger which he is!

As for the ref,you must have been watching a different match,are you telling me O Mahoney shouldnt have been sent off or that McMahon wasnt hanging off Donaghy or pulling him to the ground off the ball?

Dara caught a few nice balls in the first have,did little running and anonymous in the second half.Thats what Quirke does and he gets slated for it,why should Dara be an exception.Cynical dig at Kavanagh too which happened right in front of me,no need for it.Dara has been a fantastic servant to Kerry but he wasnt at his best yesterday.

Posters here constantly use the phrase "Kerry glasses",im from Kerry and certainly not wearing them so cant be considered biased surely!

Morgans

I think if Kerry won it, by Declan O'Sullivan's goal they would have deserved it. They seem to have got no credit for coming from 4 points down. Whoever won the game, deserved to win the game. Its not rocket science. The game was close and Tyrone won in the end, but had Tyrone lost, they would not have been any hard luck stories. They got the goal, Kerry didnt. So dominant were Tyrone in the third and most of the fourth quarter, they were outscored. The press would have you believe that Tyrone dominated the game from start to finish.

Another thing that is wrongly reported I believe, is the issue about Tyrone work-rate. Kerry to me had plenty of hunger, worked hard. Its not that their half forwards didnt work hard enough. O'Sullivan's block on Cavanagh's certain point was one instance. Its that they a) werent quick enough b) werent good enough. I think Kerry's lack of pace at midfield actually hurt them a bit, but chasing Jordan and Davy Harte around the place is tough going. I dont know why the implication is there that Brosnan and Sheehan allowed their men to go because they didnt want it enough. It was because they werent good enough. Everyone knows that Tyrone are driven. Its not news. Kerry wanted it as badly, just werent good enough on the day.

Sheehan missing the second 45 was important, and their heads went after Tyrone got in front. Which was the biggest disappointment, from a kerry point of view.

Had O'Sullivan scored, then Harte would be questioned about the Stephen O'Neill gamble and Kevin Hughes would have had a quiet night. He didnt score, and fair play to Tyrone. There isnt much between the teams and in fact I think 4pts flatters Tyrone a bit. It was 1-2 pt game.

Zzippy

DDC1990 wrote: »

A word on Kerry's discipline... non-existant!
Darragh's elbow, while not dangerous, was stupid and deserved (just about) a yellow.

No, it was a red, same as some Kerry posters insisted O'Connor's slap was a red in the semi. Striking or attempting to strike is a red card offence. He struck Cavanagh with his elbow. Red card.

Too many hands up high and Tyrone are just the team to exploit it... flinging themselves soccer style to the ground holding their necks and calling for neck-braces.
Those people calling O'Mahoney a disgrace for diving should come out again and have a go at Dooher and Co! (And Lol at Mulligan looking for the peno! Idiot)

Sour grapes tbh. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, eh!

homerjay2005

why are people still voting on the poll? crazy!

theres a few childish and ill educated posts appearing on this thread that while not unexpected, are just people jumping on a bandwagon and having a pop at kerry.

smashey

Poll closed.

helpisontheway

homerjay2005 wrote: »

why are people still voting on the poll? crazy!

theres a few childish and ill educated posts appearing on this thread that while not unexpected, are just people jumping on a bandwagon and having a pop at kerry.

Well they say credit where credit is due so critiscism where it is due also!

homerjay2005

Zzippy wrote: »

No, it was a red, same as some Kerry posters insisted O'Connor's slap was a red in the semi. Striking or attempting to strike is a red card offence. He struck Cavanagh with his elbow. Red card.

it wasnt even a booking for f*ck sake, cavanagh made the most of it and dived on the ground. if every player who "struck" an opponent got booked, then we would have 30 bookings in every game and 5 or 6 sent off.

o neills play acting to get aidan o mahony booked was a disgrace. he was pushed in the chest and went down clutching his face. people were quick to lash mahony against cork but when its a kerry player on the end of it, theres nothing said. there was also 4 other incidents of tyrone players diving to get players booked or win frees (mcmahon, mcginley, dooher and mulligan)

a few big decisions went the way of tyrone yesterday at crucial stages but no, kerry being kerry, didnt get them. everything that could have went for tyrone yesterday did. they also got 2 or 3 soft frees in the first half.

news for you

Can Kerry really complain about Tyrone being cynical this year? What with O'Mahony incident, discipline stuff, Galvin being brought on like some martyr. It kinda backfired on them. Plus it seemed like they were trying to decapitate Joe McMahon at times.

smashey

homerjay2005,

Since August, you have received two infractions from posting in GAA. I'd advise you to calm yourself down a wee bit before you get banned.

Tomthepost

Congrats to Tyrone! As a Kerryman this one really really hurt. It was the difference between Kerry proving there greatness or being just a really good team.
In truth Kerry were out thought and out fought by a great manager and one of the most inspriational captains to lift the Sam ever.
Sitting in the Cusack was a great place to view that brillant point by Dooher.
I know neutrals might think this is harsh but Pat O Shea is not good enough to be a Kerry manager. Mickey Harte made him look a complete novice. Dont forget either he was made look tactically naive before (The replayed 06 All-Ireland club title Dr Crokes V Crossmaglen)
What dissappointed me most about yesterday was the one dimensional approach by Kerry. All well and good to try it when its a 50 - 50 chance that the Kerry forward will win the long ball but sometimes yesterday the Kerry forward had no better than a 10% chance of winning it.
All in all I thought we got a good season of Gaelic Football and very worthy champions at the end of the campaign.

aidan24326

smashey wrote: »

Some one of them told him that they had a winner's medal from 2005 and wouldn't have it only for him

That was a good point to make. He was undoubtedly the key man that year. Still I think it was a bit of a mistake to bring him back for the final. If he was going to rejoin the panel at all it should have happened before the Dublin match.

helpisontheway wrote: »

I wouldnt argue for a second that Mickey Harte isnt one of the best managers in History.Imo which i am entitled too someone who worked there arse off for 10 months didnt get a game whereas someone who didnt did.Its a question of fairness,not a question of if Harte has proven if he is a great manger which he is

But it wasn't Mickey Harte's decision to bring O'Neill back. All reports are that it was the players decision, and Harte went with their wishes.

Morgans wrote: »

Had O'Sullivan scored, then Harte would be questioned about the Stephen O'Neill gamble and Kevin Hughes would have had a quiet night. He didnt score, and fair play to Tyrone. There isnt much between the teams and in fact I think 4pts flatters Tyrone a bit. It was 1-2 pt game.

In a tight game like that it often comes down to one key moment that swings the game, and certainly McConnell's save from O'Sullivan was the crucial moment in the match.

It's amazing what a fine line there is in sport sometimes, had that shot gone in, Kerry would now be celebrating 3 in a row, hailed as one of the great teams, we'd be saying the O'Neill gamble backfired, why wasn't he taken off etc. All hinging on one great save. Overall though Tyrone deserved it.

Tomthepost wrote: »

I know neutrals might think this is harsh but Pat O Shea is not good enough to be a Kerry manager. Mickey Harte made him look a complete novice

It probably is a bit harsh although as a neutral I can't completely disagree with you. He got team selection wrong, tactics wrong, had no plan B, and was slow to make changes. Unfortunately for any kerry manager you're only as good as your last final but I think if he has another year left on his contract he should be left there. He knows the few changes that need to be made, and it will only take a small bit of tweaking to have Kerry back on top again.

CyberDave

aidan24326 wrote: »

That was a good point to make. He was undoubtedly the key man that year. Still I think it was a bit of a mistake to bring him back for the final. If he was going to rejoin the panel at all it should have happened before the Dublin match.

He gave a huge boost to tyrone when he was introduced, even though it wasn't because of what he did with the ball, it was his presence on the field alone that spurred them on. It was O'Neills pass that put through Hughes for what eventually transpired to be the Tyrone goal. So bringing him on wasn't exactly a waste of time.

aidan24326

CyberDave wrote: »

He gave a huge boost to tyrone when he was introduced, even though it wasn't because of what he did with the ball, it was his presence on the field alone that spurred them on. It was O'Neills pass that put through Hughes for what eventually transpired to be the Tyrone goal. So bringing him on wasn't exactly a waste of time.

I'm sure his presence gave them a boost initially, but he just didn't do enough to warrant being there. Don't get me wrong I'm not having a go at him, he's a great player on his day. But he was clearly well off the pace of the game, short of match sharpness and lacking in confidence as evidenced by his weak 45 attempt. Though you could argue that his one meaningful contribution was a telling one.

homerjay2005

o neill was poor yesterday, nothing else to say. he was on the field for 45 minutes, which is a massive time to get into the game. bad form to bring him on as first sub.

premierstone

aidan24326 wrote: »

It probably is a bit harsh although as a neutral I can't completely disagree with you. He got team selection wrong, tactics wrong, had no plan B, and was slow to make changes. Unfortunately for any kerry manager you're only as good as your last final but I think if he has another year left on his contract he should be left there. He knows the few changes that need to be made, and it will only take a small bit of tweaking to have Kerry back on top again.

Well as a neutral i would agree, i personally dont think he's quite up to it just look at the three cork games as evidence of this - he just stood there watching he's team visibly fall to pieces and throw away huge leads and did nothing to stop the rot, cant imagine mickey harte ever doing that.

CyberDave

aidan24326 wrote: »

Though you could argue that his one meaningful contribution was a telling one.

Yes, exactly what I mean.

Guisseppeth

I don't think O'Neill himself wanted to come back for the Final. According to Mickey Harte he wanted to delay it until January but Harte persuaded him to come back for the final and O'Neill agreed to it but only with the blessing of the squad. He even said that if O'Neill had told him 30 minutes before the final that he wanted to come back he would have taken him - a bit of a silly statement but you get what he was trying to say.

Overall I thought O'Neill wasn't great yesterday. His fitness seemed to be OK but his handling and understanding with the other lads looked a little bit off, which is no surprise really considering he had only been training with them for 2 weeks. But I can say as a Tyrone fan that the sight of him coming on yesterday lifted me and every other Tyrone fan around me and though he didn't score sometimes I think that even his presence on the pitch was unsettling for the Kerry backs.

buck65

The pass for the goal was sublime.I thought Kerry were far too wound up and with all the yellow cards proved that football was 2nd on their mind. Again Tyrone psyched them out of it.

helpisontheway

aidan24326 wrote: »

But it wasn't Mickey Harte's decision to bring O'Neill back. All reports are that it was the players decision, and Harte went with their wishes.

Mickey Harte is the boss and what he says goes.If he put it to the players that he wanted to bring in the pope:D who in their ritemind would argue with him and risk not playing at all in the final!

DDC1990

Some people accusing me of sour grapes, but its not. If anyone can prove to me that Dooher or any of the players that lay on the ground for 5 mins at a time needed that long to recover from the "crushing blows" they were dealt during the game then fine! Cavanagh was tapped by Darragh Ó Sé and went down, but he didnt make too much of it and popped up and into the dressing-room with him... but Dooher spent more time on the ground then on his feet! He is a great player when he plays... his two points prove that, but he is a cynical player and deserves criticism. A thread not long ago was started talking about Kerry cynicism, but if one was started today about Tyrone being cynical, it would be locked or called a sour grapes thread... and there would be plenty of support for Tyrone.

Nalced_irl

homerjay2005 wrote: »

it wasnt even a booking for f*ck sake, cavanagh made the most of it and dived on the ground. if every player who "struck" an opponent got booked, then we would have 30 bookings in every game and 5 or 6 sent off.

o neills play acting to get aidan o mahony booked was a disgrace. he was pushed in the chest and went down clutching his face. people were quick to lash mahony against cork but when its a kerry player on the end of it, theres nothing said. there was also 4 other incidents of tyrone players diving to get players booked or win frees (mcmahon, mcginley, dooher and mulligan)

a few big decisions went the way of tyrone yesterday at crucial stages but no, kerry being kerry, didnt get them. everything that could have went for tyrone yesterday did. they also got 2 or 3 soft frees in the first half.

In all fairness, this is sounding alot like some of the capitals 31 v 1 talk that we get lashed for here. I dont believe it was a red card, but for stupidity alone it warranted a yellow. While not dangerous, he struck with the elbow and a strict ref could well have seen it as a red. I think your being a bit harsh on Cavanagh also. While he went down easily under the elbow, he didnt do it in the same "Most Dramatic Scene" Oscar way that AOM did. He went down but got straight back up. Dooher on the other hand is a player that has pi$$ed me off many times for his antics and simultaion. I didnt notice too much of it yesterday by him but thats not to say it didnt happen. Otherwise he had a very good game tho.

DDC1990:
As far as i remember, there was only once when a neck brace was brought on, and that was for a pull accross the neck when the player was running full pace which is understandable as a "just in case" scenario. May have been more and i agree Tyrone are well able to fling themselves to the deck but cant remember too much of it yesterday on either side.

buck65:
Think your right. Its a thin line against Tyrone. Not wound enough and they will bully you off your game which they have done brilliantly in the past, however too wound up and you push yourself off your own game and run the risk off finishing 2 or 3 players down. Kerry could have had a couple sent off on another day. Gooch was lucky that his lash towards the end didnt connect i think. There wasnt huge force but after being awarded a free he flung the elbow back towards a Tyroneman. Id say had it connected, he would have walked. I think also Tyrone are the masters of the secret cynacism. They keep everything hidden whereas Kerry were pulled up for every one practically as it was in view of the ref. Tyrone targetted Walsh early on and the usual suspect also gave him a dig in the ribs after a missed chance which im surprised hasnt been mentioned yet.

Either way, and i dont want this to sound like a dig or gloat in any way, but one good thing about this result is that hopefully the talk of this Kerry team being the best of all time will cease. I dont think its warranted at all. Not saying the current group arent a brilliant team, they quite obviously are but no way the best ever.

Nalced_irl

DDC1990 wrote: »

Some people accusing me of sour grapes, but its not. If anyone can prove to me that Dooher or any of the players that lay on the ground for 5 mins at a time needed that long to recover from the "crushing blows" they were dealt during the game then fine! Cavanagh was tapped by Darragh Ó Sé and went down, but he didnt make too much of it and popped up and into the dressing-room with him... but Dooher spent more time on the ground then on his feet! He is a great player when he plays... his two points prove that, but he is a cynical player and deserves criticism. A thread not long ago was started talking about Kerry cynicism, but if one was started today about Tyrone being cynical, it would be locked or called a sour grapes thread... and there would be plenty of support for Tyrone.

TBH, i would never try and suggest that Dooher isnt a cynical player. One thing he does that annoys the hell out of me is basically dive into tackles and then go down as if he had been hit. Complete and utter simulation and I have seen him do it at least 4 or 5 times in the past and getting frees for it. I cant understand how refs havent caught on yet. Having said that, i did notice Dooher seemed to be getting very tired at times yesterday. The legs are getting old at this stage so possibly (just possibly) he needed a breather so stayed down. Cant remember the incident in question so could be very wrong but just a thought.

K-9

Personally, I didn't post here today because of the usual my team is dirtier than yours nonsense.

There is some major over reactions on this thread. Just thinking about Kerry Monaghan last year, sure they persisted with the long ball that day, one mistake by Monaghan and it paid off! If O'Sullivan? had scored a goal with 5 minutes to go there wouldn't be a mention of this.

The problem was the half forward and half back line, but remember Harte and Jordan where relatively quite yesterday, they where busy keeping their men quite!

And yes Tyrone could have won by more just the same as Kerry could have sneaked it. They lost possession a few times with 10 minutes to go and I thought they would pay.

There where a few high tackles by Kerry players yesterday and one or 2 Tyrone players made the most of it. Similar to how O'Mahoney made the most of it in the Semi. That isn't the point, a high tackle still counts no matter the reaction.

If Tyrone had lost, Tyrone could moan about the high tackles, Cooper etc. but the majority would call it sour grapes.

The reverse applies here!

PS The diving needs to be stamped out but it's a different issue.
So I'm not biased, I hate the Tyrone habit of when a man falls to the ground a knee or elbow accidentally lands on the player!

homerjay2005

what sickens me are people are saying tyrone hammered kerry and were the better team. thats total nonsense, the game was 1-12 to 14 points going into the last minute. it couldn have been more even and it was 50-50 throughout the whole game. kerry had 2 chances to equalise and a goal chance to win it. had any of them gone in,im very confident kerry would have won.

tyrone got 3 points in 60 seconds. that is what the difference was.the goals gave them the cushion to be able to take them points when the pressure was on.

kerry could and perhaps should have won this game. with 10 minutes to go, we were in a position to win it and I felt we could have done it. peoples analysis both on here and in the media is amazing to say the least.

sslazio11

Well, the debate about the final seems to have gone into "Kerry are cynical", "No, Tyrone are cynical" territory. I think both sides have a case, although I will say Brian Dooher particularly annoyed me with his diving to the floor clutching his face after he committed a foul, and a Kerry player pushed him in the chest. Happened right in front of me on two occasions.

Anyway, on Kerry radio last night they were dissecting the match, and the most interesting thing to come out of it was that Dara O'Se won 11 kickouts during the game, and had the most possessions of any player on the field. The guy they have doing the stats said that in all his years compiling them, he's never seen a number that high.

There's a couple of posters on this thread who have criticised Dara O'Se, and I think it's wrong. The guy is 33 years old, has played for Kerry for 14 years, so it's no major surprise he can't go full throttle for 70 minutes. He didn't play as well in the second half as the first, but he still managed to kick a point to draw Kerry level at 1-10 to 0-13, and still won a decent amount of ball.

Brian Dooher is also 33, played a great game, but likewise, he was very quiet for portions of the game, and was out on his feet by the end of it. Has anyone criticised him for that? No.

Unsurprisingly, the Tyrone wing backs were also way up there in the possession stakes. They really are key to Tyrone's game plan, and their comfort on the ball is evident. The same goes for the vast majority of Tyrone players, there was never any panic when an attack stalled, they moved the ball around, and then generally picked the right option to create a scoring opportunity.

Would that Kerry players were as confident in possession, the amount of times they turned the ball over under little pressure was really disappointing to see.

I read an article which was headed 'Expert Opinion' in the Indo online which opined that Kerry were a poor second best, which only reminds me why i don't buy the bloody rag. Then Kevin McStay pipes up on the Sunday Game saying Tyrone could have won by 10 points. I actually thought he was a guy who knew the game fairly well, and had good insight, but clearly i'm wrong. Tyrone were worthy winners, absolutely, but it was very close all the way, probably not even a 4 point game.

Anyway, I really hope we have the same two teams in the final next year, it was a quality game of football on Sunday, a great finale to a year that had relatively few stand-out games.

weebelly

While both sides were cynical (Mulligan should really be made to watch a video of his dive repeatedly - there was a score there if he'd tried, and in such a tight match too), I think four of five different Kerry players executed neck/head high tackles during the match. These weren't simply misplaced challenges on static players or players who crouched going into the tackle, they were often dangerous high swings on guys who had built up momentum running with the ball (and, for whoever bitterly mentioned it as being somehow a reflection of Tyrones cynicism - a neckbrace is brought on by the team doctor under those circumstances, nothing to do with the players).
But, diving and clothes-lining aside - at the end of the day - it was an All-Ireland Final and even with almost every players having played in a previous final, you'd have to expect a lot of tensions spilling over into the game, especially with all the 'team of decade' hype (it's one thing to be going for an AI win, but the way it had been built up, its another thing entirely to be trying to avoid your previous hard-earned AI wins being tarnished by losing a later final - if that makes sense). After the watch-through-your-fingers hurling final (sorry Decies) it was a great spectacle (I watched it on tv) and both counties should be congratulated for that. The minors was a great game as well.

aidan24326

Look lads, both teams have a cynical edge to them. Tyrone have had it for a few years now. I saw them up close when Galway played them in the qualifiers in 2004 and some of their antics left a sour taste to be honest. Kerry have always had it, it's only come to people's attention in the last few years it seems. It's part of the reason Kerry have been so successful down the years, they have always been able to mix good football with a hard edge.

It's a pity though that we're seeing some of this premiership nonsense creeping into the game, the diving and feigning injury. It's hard to have respect for a player who gets up to that sort of crap. I admire Tyrone for the way they came back and beat Kerry again this year, and they deserved their win, but there's no denying they have a cynical side to them that is not likeable.

To be fair though, I think we saw less of it this year than in the past, and I was mainly impressed with the way Tyrone went about their business in the last couple of games.

Morgans

Surely at this stage a rule should be brought in that a man getting treated on the pitch for anything other than a head injury shouldnt stop play.

This isnt having a go at Tyrone. Im sure if Kerry had gone ahead they would have done everything to slow the game down. Tyrone I think had two men down and a sub come on after Kerry had equalised. Its clever stuff, taking the steam out of the game. As was Ryan McMenamen yellow card challenge before the final whistle. Its nothing new and its pushing the letter and spirit of the law to the limit, but it would be a better game all round if something was done to stop the cynical stuff. Tyrone would still be the best team, but would be doing things the right way.

The diving was ridiculous and its one of the reasons why Dublin did what they did that day, and its one of the reasons, why I never condemned them for doing it. At least Armagh have the grit behind the macho posturing and arent under orders to get men cards.

Its like the big boy in the schoolyard bumping shoulders with everyone but then when someone faces up to him, he runs to teacher. Tyrone are better than that. What Dublin did was say "feck the teachers" if you want to push us around, you got to realise what will come back.

K-9

sslazio11 wrote: »

Anyway, on Kerry radio last night they were dissecting the match, and the most interesting thing to come out of it was that Dara O'Se won 11 kickouts during the game, and had the most possessions of any player on the field. The guy they have doing the stats said that in all his years compiling them, he's never seen a number that high.

o'SE, O'Sullivan and Cooper where the best Kerry players.

Whoever blamed the Kerry manager for not taking O'Se off instead of Scanlon is mad! Yes he could be criticised for some things, not that.

Homerjay, I agree Kerry could have win this with 5 minutes to.

At the same time, Tyrone kicked a lot wides and wasted a lot of possession with 10 minutes to go. You can't mention one and ignore the other!

homerjay2005

Seanies32 wrote: »

At the same time, Tyrone kicked a lot wides and wasted a lot of possession with 10 minutes to go. You can't mention one and ignore the other!

we kicked some bad wides in the first half too. in fact, it was 6 wides to 1 at one stage. most of the tyrone wides were from impossible angles and not scorable.

K-9

The 2 wides from Hughes where atrocious!

O'Neill had 2 bad ones as well.

Tyrone I think had 8 in the second half!

PS. If Kerrys missed chances count, so do Tyrones!

smashey

Seanies32 wrote: »

The 2 wides from Hughes where atrocious!

O'Neill had 2 bad ones as well.

Tyrone I think had 8 in the second half!

PS. If Kerrys missed chances count, so do Tyrones!

Don't forget the third wide from Hughes where he tried to fist the ball over the bar.

Nalced_irl

homerjay2005 wrote: »

we kicked some bad wides in the first half too. in fact, it was 6 wides to 1 at one stage. most of the tyrone wides were from impossible angles and not scorable.

That 1 wide at the start however was a free almost directly in front of the posts.

sam34

well, as a kerrywoman, i have to admit i'm still subdued after this one!
however, i have to say that it doesnt sting as much as our two previous defeats to tyrone. in those years, particularly 2003, i felt a huge sense of grievance about tyrones cynicism and "puke football" tactics. this year though, that wasnt much in evidence. sure, there was a bit fo diving and off te ball stuff, and running-down-the-clock, but kerry (and indeed almost every other county throughout the year) were guilty of both the first two, and had we been in tyrones position with only injury time left, im sure we'd have done similar.

so congratulations to tyrone.

where did it go wrong for kerry? brosnan's selection was questionable to begin with, but he definitely should not have started the 2nd half....
only giving paul galvin a 12 minute run was crazy....
twin towers were not utilised to full potential...
bad day at the office for diarmuid murphy...

anyway, when all's said and done, there's always next year!
ciarrai abu!

K-9

The interesting stat from the match is Kerry didn't score after they went ahead with 13 minutes to go and Tyrone scored 5 points. Also, all the scores in the second half where from play.

Kerry fans will say they didn't take their chances in that period and that is true. However that stat hides the fact Tyrone got 3 points in 2 minutes so they only scored 2 points in the other 11. You had 4/5 wides from them.

Also because Kerry defended deep after taking the lead (dare I say swarm defence!) especially in the half back line they forced a few Tyrone errors. Problem is Tyrone get back quicker than Kerry and attack in numbers better.

O'Neill didn't do much but he attracted 3 Kerry players to him for the goal making room for McGuigan. Although he didn't score he did ok as a target man letting Cavanagh come out deeper, Cavanagh actually won a couple of balls in midfield near the end!

So yes missed Kerry missed their chances at the end, thing is, if they'd taken them, Tyrone would be talking about their missed chances in the last 10 minutes and lost possession, basically similar to yourself Homerjay!

So in that way, talk of missed chances really doesn't matter. The better team always comes through.

Agus

I don't think the point is that Kerry should have won, it's that they could very easily have. Either side could have, but Tyrone probably deserved to win on the day. By the way, surely you're not saying that every match is won by the better team??

K-9

Agus wrote: »

I don't think the point is that Kerry should have won, it's that they could very easily have. Either side could have, but Tyrone probably deserved to win on the day. By the way, surely you're not saying that every match is won by the better team??

The better forwards do, so yes, overall the better team wins which is why Kerry and Tyrone where playing on Sunday.

Tyrones midfielders and backs scored 2-18 from play against Dublin, Wexford and Dublin.

Just as Donaghey changed Football in 06, these guys have evolved and changed the game again.

Ryan McMenamin playing corner forward for parts of the second half against Wexford, scoring 2 points from play against Dublin, Joe McMahon scores 1-1 against Dublin and they bring him back to mark Walsh against Kerry, Harte scoring a point or two in every match from play, Cavanagh moving between FF and midfield.

Tyrone have changed the notion of what a team is, 14 or more adaptable players who can all defend and attack with ease.

In fact, I think the media and the commentators overhyped the notion that Kerry had the more talented footballers. Tyrone have the more all round talented footballers.

Agus

Seanies32 wrote: »

The better forwards do, so yes, overall the better team wins which is why Kerry and Tyrone where playing on Sunday.

surely you have seen games where the team with the better forwards lost through luck or just not performing on the day?

K-9

Yes.

But it's seems to be a habit with Kerry against Tyrone since 03 and yet if the played tomorrow, the majority would still say Kerry are the more talented.

It may well take a back to back AI like Kerry for Tyrone to get that credit.

sslazio11

Seanies32 wrote: »

Yes.

But it's seems to be a habit with Kerry against Tyrone since 03 and yet if the played tomorrow, the majority would still say Kerry are the more talented.

It may well take a back to back AI like Kerry for Tyrone to get that credit.

I think that's a fair assessment. Kerry have been incredibly consistent this decade, reaching at least the semi-finals every year. I know people say Kerry have an easier time because of the provincial set-up, but they had to get past Armagh and Galway to win the last All-Ireland of the knockout era. Since the qulaifiers were introduced, they have won all 8 of their All-Ireland Quarter-Finals, and reached 5 finals in a row. That's an incredible record.

Tyrone have been great in 3 of the last 6 years, but haven't progressed beyond the quarter finals in either of the seasons following their All-Ireland wins, so for them to win back-to-back All-Irelands, or at least reach the final, would be their target for next year to confirm themselves a great team.

Mr. Incognito

Kerry are more consistent.

Tyrone are more organised.

I said it here beofre the game and I'll say it again after. Tommy Walsh should have played in the centre forward line. He would have given a fielding and running option in the one area were were beaten in all three games hands down.

Agus

SetantaL wrote: »

Kerry are more consistent.

Tyrone are more organised.

I said it here beofre the game and I'll say it again after. Tommy Walsh should have played in the centre forward line. He would have given a fielding and running option in the one area were were beaten in all three games hands down.

At times it also seemed to me that Walsh and Donaghy (both more naturally number 14s than than corner-forwards) were too bunched together in the full-forward line, making it easier for the opposing defence to cope with the threat. Galvin / O'Sullivan / Walsh might be a good half-forward line for next year, especially if Brosnan does take a year out.

kerry4sam

Some heads are still soar in the Kingdom but what seems to be hurting the most is the fact that we lost 3major finals in 1year: League / Munster / All-Ireland ...

Kerry on paper have the better, more consistant players but Tyrone on the pitch are more team-oriented and that's what won it for them. They had each others' backs and took their scoring chances as a team and not for glory - Donaghy was un-marked in the box on 2occasions and if the ball was passed over to him, one would have said they were 6more points for the Kingdom, 3pending luck for sure.